oldskool

First thing I'd change is the Romanized spelling to Ninjutsu. I think the set compares fairly well for Stalkers since it gains additional tricks like caltrops, smoke bomb, and blinding powder at the expensive of raw mitigation tools. This gives the set a level of distinction from Super Reflexes and also fits the feel/flavor of playing certain Stalker builds. The inclusion of a personal heal is also a very nice boon for Stalkers vs Super Reflexes at times. Ninjutsu's port in Sentinels/Scrappers has certain strengths but the lack of the original tools can make it feel like a watered down version of Super Reflexes. The inclusion of new powers like Shinobi-Iri, Seishin Teki Kyoyo (seishinteki is oddly joined as one word maybe because it can't be hyphenated?), and Bo Ryaku are great but also remove so much of the flavor of the set. This is both unfortunate and understandable. The missing power caltrops already exist in Weapon Mastery for Scrappers. Sentinels can pick up both Smoke Bomb and Caltrops in Ninja Tool Mastery. While I do like the changes of the Scrapper/Sentinel versions, I would have liked Bo Ryaku to exist a bit earlier. This is really a very minor complaint. The KB protection there is welcome far earlier than level 28, but this is easily overcome with IOs. Still, I'd rather not be so reliant on the IO's to provide a slight bit of protection like this and Shinobi-Iri could easily swap space there. I do love Shinobi-Iri, but I could also live with it coming later. Speaking of Shinobi-Iri... The damage bonus for first strikes is cute, but also feels like a bit of a missed opportunity. I would love for there be other ways for Scrappers/Sentinels to use this bonus beyond a first strike. As it is, it is a really weak effect and more of a bone tossed out as a nod to the background concept. Its a nice touch, but feels like it should be used a bit more without completely stomping on shtick of Stalkers. Kuji-In Retsu... This is really just an Elude knockoff which was always a missed opportunity even for the basic vanilla Stalker version. This mantra, "Retsu", is the mastery of space and time. In an SO world, this power making you untouchable seems like it fits that concept. In practical play, it never lived up to the name sake. For Scrappers/Sentinels this could have been something new to interact with Shinobi-Iri and be functionally different from Smoke Bomb (which Scrappers don't even have and is nearly useless for Sentinels). It could have been more like an offensive buff. For this we could have had Kuji-In Pyo which is the expression of utilizing one's energy. Kuji-In Rin is/was generally a pre-battle meditation focusing the fire element (certain ninjutsu is real big on elemental harmonies with chakra) and Pyo is the following mantra to use this energy. I know that's real nitpicky, but Kuji-In Retsu is far too abstract to do it any level of justice with how this game works. A Stalker could also have a version of Pyo, but it would likely have to express itself differently. An stealth mechanic is already there for Placate so that's kind of out, but some kind of offensive buff wouldn't have been out of line with the original version. OR the Stalker version could keep Retsu as the defensive tool since Shinobi-Iri adds a bit more defense to the Scrapper/Sentinel version IIRC. Anyway, those are my thoughts. I genuinely like the set as it is, but it has a few points of copy-paste from Super Reflexes that could have been changed for more identity.

You're not going to ever pull off apples to apples so what you have is fine. You could just make note of their differences and design your test to around that. For example, on paper your DP/Nin actually has better DPS on a single target than the Blaster does. I'm serious on this. I know someone will read that and wish they could stone me for it, but it is real stuff. It takes Defiance to drive the Blaster's performance higher with that build, AND how you leverage the secondary. You've got Gun Drone's cool down low enough you could pull a second one out before the first expires. As long as the summon lives it is going to inflate your ST DPS effectiveness alongside Defiance. That's assuming you don't take Opportunity into account, but Defiance is guaranteed to be more consistent. Since you're not testing specifically on bosses this consistency of the Defiance effect is relevant information to test for time. I think the real question here is, how much time is saved due to those bolstering effects? That's a good basis for the test. Your DP/Nin has slightly faster cooldowns on its AoE and that includes Hail of bullets. Your DP/Dev has more options including Piercing Rounds and Trip Mine. That is on top of the expanded target caps native to the Blaster AT. Once again, the question becomes do all of these tools shorten time-to-kill (hypothetically it should) and if so, how much? You could measure the times by limiting the use of Blaster powers like Trip Mine, but that isn't really a good use of the test. I don't think it is interesting to find out if a Blaster with its right arm tied behind its back is somehow equal to a Sentinel. I think most people can see that Blasters should have an edge in doing damage, but the real question is just how much does it save time. Anyway, both builds look fun and this concept to test is pretty interesting. I don't have anything comparable to pull of myself as I don't play Dual Pistols on a Blaster as a ranged-only build. If I were to say that my own DP/MC build out damages my DP/SR build that has as much to do with Martial Combat powers as it does with target caps.

Dark/Dark is a fun pair to get your edgelord on. I guess you could color it differently and do something else too. 😉 Dark Blast's AoE may not be as varied as Water's but the attacks themselves are pretty good by Sentinel standards. You could also pick up an extra PBAoE from the Epic (I know obvious is obvious) and I'd recommend checking out Dark Mastery. I personally like Dark Mastery over Soul on Sentinels as I feel it gets a slightly better deal on animation/recharge times. Plus, the general power choices are all pretty good. You don't need it, but it is possible since you can skip quite a few things in either Dark Blast or Dark Armor. Psychic Mastery is also very strong, but can be a bit boring due to its power gamey nature.

I think the world is your oyster at that difficulty. Which concept do you like more?

In my opinion, /SR is a bit easier to build for survival than /DA is within this AT. However, you're mileage may vary depending on what kind of difficulty level you're looking to push. If you're comfortable running at a lower difficulty (while solo), then it really doesn't matter which pair you take. By difficulty, I mean +2/* vs +3 or 4/*. Dark/Dark can rely a lot on -to-hit which can diminish greatly the higher you spike personal difficulty on missions. /SR doesn't feel those difficulty spikes nearly as much due to fairly reliable nature of high defense plus Master Brawler. I find either primary fun.

If the first part bothered you, then I apologize. Was it too far to use "bestest"? Perhaps, and I'll be careful on that. For the latter, I think you're looking for insult where none is given. Not once did I call you elitist. I wrote "It comes across as". I do get how that could be taken personally, but that is a misunderstanding. The indictment is against the use of certain loaded language and not the authors themselves. If we can't have a discussion where a party expresses how it feels to read degrading commentary, then we really can't get very far in conversation here. I find some of the loaded commentary I mentioned inflammatory. I don't disagree that the AT could use a buff. However, the current role is ranged DPS. Just because it may not live up to whatever potential it should doesn't mean it doesn't have a role. It just isn't as good at that role as it could be. Much of your statement is really no different for Tankers as it is for Sentinels. The difference is the perception of current effectiveness. Since the Sentinel isn't as effective as it should be, it therefore it has no role. Am I missing something in this interpretation? It has a wide range of reasons when you start reading between the lines. 1) Some people are holding on to how ranged blast sets function in legacy ATs like Blasters, Defenders and Corruptors. This is a lack of acceptance that Sentinels do not do the exact same thing with the same powers. 2) Some people do not understand the inherent, and that isn't their fault. It is too complex for its own good. Its effects are also measurably weak and exacerbated by the lengthy downtime of the clickable effect. 3) Some people are making direct comparisons, apples to apples style, with other ATs. Most notably the comparison point is the Blaster, and this seems to be a leading cause of the misunderstanding. Sentinels aren't comparable to Blasters. That's not just for damage, but due to entire AT mechanics including secondary power interaction. Sentinels are, conceptually, more comparable to Scrappers. It is plain as day to see where discrepancies lie. 4) Some people are making direct comparisons with outlier builds as justification for comparisons to Sentinel failures. Maybe we're not seeing that directly in this thread, but some posters here have done exactly that in the past. 5) There are inevitable comparisons to experiences of only a portion of play and not holistic view. 6) There is the occasional parroting of common forum knowledge. It can be apparent, at times, when some people haven't really explored the AT beyond a certain point. That's fine to find that the AT in its current form isn't meeting expectations. Its not cool to diminish others based on a narrow band of experience. I don't intend for the above to be all inclusive either. Some folks just won't like anything about the Sentinel because it won't click with their style. That's unlikely to ever change until it fits within whatever box they've decided to build. Sorry, I need to cut out some of the extra text. I'm not real sure they do a good job of supporting your argument so I'm looking at what stands out. We already know that the dev team does not feel like the current implementation is the best it is gonna be. You can sideline this AT if you don't like it as that is your prerogative. However, we know it is going to change. The Sentinel not really bringing anything unique isn't really going to change much unless the devs truly due a full uprooting. Just working the inherent into something different doesn't change the fact the AT still has blasts with shields. You're also making the comparison of "weak blaster" here. You're entitled to your opinion, and I want to respect that. However, Blasters have a lot of flaws in comparison here. Yes, the Sentinel has less than a Blaster's AoE capability. However, that isn't the point of comparison. The Sentinel has larger AoE than Scrappers. The Sentinel has an AoE nuke for a T9 that Scrappers do not have access to. I'm not going to bother debating the merits of the level of quality of this AoE difference. I'm just stating that the intent of that design is what has been expressed. I feel you're making my point for me. You could substitute "Sentinel" with "Blaster" and it works just as well for the first 2 sentences. You play a Fire Sentinel, or Energy Sentinel for their effects and for that reason or theme. Whether or not the Sentinel is worth playing for your goals is going to be personal preference. I get the impression you'd rather play something else. That's great, and there is an AT that exists that checks the boxes in the Blaster for you. However, this mindset is not universal. Even in its current form, the Sentinel fills a void for some players (my self included) that hadn't existed in the game. We can agree to disagree on whatever points you wish here. If you like we can take this to PM and not derail this further. As it is, I think I'm done. I'm not really offering ideas to change anything of the Sentinel at this point but merely discussing semantics on where to drive productivity. My efforts aren't probably doing much of anything at all other than to get misconstrued in a manner I don't want.

I actually really like these questions. They cut to the core of everything I'm talking about and precisely a difference of perception. Do I think the Sentinel actually brings anything to the table other classes don't do better? Well, that's easy on the surface. Of course not. Guess what? I feel that way about a lot of classes. Here's another thing to toss on to the pile. I don't care. You're first question kind shows at least two lines of thought here. There is The Sentinels must do something better than and/or bring something better than some other AT line of thought. It is the zero-sum argument. Then there is The Sentinel fills a niche for an individual that the other ATs just can't line of thought. Its a more carefree argument. I definitely feel the later. On top of feeling that way, I also recognize this game isn't so difficult that the Sentinel's current performance hinders my ability to complete objectives in this game. Oddly enough, you note towards the end of your reply "but they are capable of doing content with no problems with their DPS and survival and they are fun". That last part, they are fun, pretty much trumps the following "but there are definitely better class choices available that do it... better!". Not quite. I'll grant you that through a very narrow lens of viewing this game others ATs can do certain things better. However, this isn't a determining factor for why I play a Sentinel. Also, just to be real clear my feelings do not mean my thoughts about the AT getting a buff are somehow mutually exclusive. I enjoyed rolling up the Sentinel because it let me pair up ranged weapon sets (Assault Rifle, Dual Pistols, Beam Rifle, Archery) with secondary power sets that don't force constant redraw. I really hate redraw in either of its optional forms as it really breaks character for me. While I could play a */Devices or */Tactical Arrow Blaster the outcome does not achieve the same thing. I can tell you I've tried it, and it doesn't work for me. The Sentinel does. I know exactly where my favorite Sentinel build sits on DPS as it is right now. I know precisely what it can do and how certain environmental factors (needing to click a heal, or inspires) impact my damage. I can tell you that level of damage is less than certain Blaster builds, but it is not so much lower that it hinders my enjoyment. At the same time it is not so low that I cannot still contribute to a team. Additionally, this AT helps me play around in exemplar content without a need to worry if certain IO bonuses that are carrying my defense or just go poof. Nor is the AT so dependent on Incarnates that is unplayable at a lower level. Mind you I also play some Stalkers. I'm well aware of the disparities in damage, but it is not so great that it ruins the AT for me. Before I move on, I just want to point out a few things. 1) Bringing up Tankers post buff as some kind of "See!! Even Tankers do more with bonus AoE too!!" is more than a bit disingenuous. Tankers had a balance pass. The Sentinel has not. Likewise goes for any comparisons of current fast-snipe. Both of these buffs to Tankers and Blasters, respectively, are power creep. I don't find it all that fair to be comparing ATs with buffs that bolster their damage as they did to an AT that hasn't yet even had its balance pass. I think more to the point, we could use those concepts as methods of evaluating how to make Sentinels better, but to just say "See, X AT post buff is now better!" is just BS. 2) You're skipping over Masterminds and Night Widows. 😉 If the only thing anyone gives a care about is the highest end of performance, then you really need to consider changing your "If, then" list. Completely drop the the ATs non-sense altogether and just cut to the chase. Why play anything other than Fire Blast on a Blaster? Not just a Blaster, because not all Blaster combos are fantastic, but a Fire Blaster. Scratch that. Why bother playing a Fire Blaster when you can just play a Fire/Kinetics Corruptor? Why play those when I can just play an Illusion/Storm Controller that can trivialize most content on its own? This entire argument can get awfully circular, and it is why I'm not fond of it one bit. The rest of the list is just a series of binary logic. It boils everything down to just a collect of metrics. If that is yours or anyone elses idea of fun, then I won't stop you. It isn't mine though. I tend to look at my characters more as "will this work on X AT or Y AT". I don't think just in terms of "well, Blasters are the most bestest at damage therefore, I must play Blaster". Again, if that is anyone's bag, then express you're inner suicidal maniac that nukes sites from orbit (its the only way to be sure). However, any of that pigeonholing isn't really necessary in this game, and you even note that. So once again, how much damage does the Sentinel really need to do? Anyway, can the Sentinel use better damage? Sure!! I'd love a buff!! Does that suddenly give it a niche it doesn't already fill? No. If Sentinels did more damage it just end up finding a place on your personal shelf of Blaster/Stalker/Scrapper/Brute/YoYo Master/Sentinel hierarchy. That's fine too. However, for other players the Sentinel will still fill the niche it already does and it will just do more damage. Its a win/win for me. Once again, I do appreciate the reply. P.S. Going over all of that misses a lot of the point about why I don't care for "role" or "...has no place" kinds of commentary. It comes across as being elitest in a game that is pretty easy by default. We're not rushing Mythic+ 10 for the keys to get a minor upgrade so we can crush it on a progression raid. This game isn't that competitive and if non-DPS ATs like Defenders can roll content without having a need for a Tanker then the entire concept of roles is just ridiculous in my opinion. This game hasn't needed specific compositions for teams in a long, long, time. Even at release it didn't always need them. I'm totally fine if the Sentinel's only real niche is that its power set selection is different from some other ATs and it is.

So have you used this specific build already? Hasten could drop a slot and then use +4 boosters in the other two enhancements. I say could. What you do with the extra slot is up to you. Dehydrate is a solid damage power and having it slotted as just a heal is a little disappointing to see. However, if this your jam, then totally do it! Invisibility is toggled on which makes for misleading defense numbers. Stealth would be what you run in combat and in the Options -> Configuration -> Effects & Math -> select "Attacked". That'll show you some more realistic numbers. Still, the typed defenses are quite high here which is good. Smashing/Lethal/Melee are the weak point. I'm one of the unusual folks that actually sees value in Strength of Will. Hell, I even use it on my Tanker because it covers additional damage types, recovery, and a hell of a lot of status (which is hilarious). On Sentinels SoW can actually cap your S/L resistance. You can argue that orange inspirations do the same thing, but then I'll just argue you can use both. Also, taking it means another mule slot for Unbreakable Guard if you really wanted it. Its a decent build though, and you did ask for feedback. I don't think you really need to change anything if you don't want to, but if I were to change it you can just read the above.

Do you find yourself saying the following things when you say "Looking for group": 1) Gosh... I really wish we had someone with Containment on our team. 2) Gee willikers... we really need Scourge on this team. We've got a lot of options to push damage when targets get below 50% health. 3) Holy inherent Statesman... if only we had a Kheld to make our teams more adaptive! 4) You know what? Its clobbering time, and we need critical hits. Get me a Stalker over a Scrapper because their inherent is more controlled. If you don't find yourself really scrutinizing the inherents and how they interact with your team, then why on Earth is this an issue with Sentinels? I think people look at the sum of all parts of an AT when they assess value. I really doubt most people think of Brutes down to Fury vs a Tanker's Gauntlet. Instead, people just know that Brutes and Tankers are highly durable with one leaning more in that direction over the other. Most players aren't brain dead. They understand the core gist of mechanics. People should enjoy having Sentinels around because they contribute to the overall effectiveness of the team. That can mean a lot more than just Opportunity. I know I'm being kind of nitpicky, but reading statements like this only fuel "Sentinels have no role" garbage. Its like trying to pigeon hole the AT into something because there is some contrived notion this game needs roles. Ever play on an all Defender team? Ask those how it feels to not have a Tanker. I'll bet they're all quaking in their boots. /s Opportunity just needs to fit the spirit of the AT while contributing something worthwhile to that vision. If it is a group scale buff, then cool. If it is a personal effect, then cool. It just needs to function in a manner that is accessible to all level ranges and easy enough to understand. That's it. This whole "opportunity needs to be wanted by groups" is just going to lead to disappointment and division where it doesn't need to exist. P.S., I do understand the feeling that Sentinels could have something to make them seem different. I'm just of a mind that having a range set plus defense set is already unique. Wishing their inherent as a means to make them acceptable to the community seems a bit like missing the point when so many other inherents aren't reasons why ATs hold intrinsic value. Their inherents may add value to their innate design goals but these are just component pieces that make the AT's perceived to be good or not. Also, most inherents are weaker than legit powers. Some have fairly dramatic effects, but most feel more like an IO proc. So I'm trying not to get my hopes up too high that Opportunity itself is going to be something that makes or break this AT. It just needs to be a useful tool in a much broader tool kit. If the intent behind the original comment, or others even remotely like it, aren't as black and white as they look -- forgive me. Its just I'm interpreting what I read here and how it comes across from my own perspective. The feels expressed about the value of Opportunity still have merit even if I am being a bit of a Devil's Advocate to discuss it from a different angle. I just want to keep the peace. 😉

Agreed, and I'm glad you own it. The Crabbermind has always had a lot of its strength in summoned NPCs. No one should be pretending that summoned NPCs don't do silly amounts of damage when they can actually live to do it. Crabs built this way can stack several of them at once. Its not like anyone is praising Longfang or Channelgun with any level of seriousness. If Venom Grenade didn't have a resistance debuff attached to it I wouldn't expect people to gush about it either. I absolutely LOVED my SOA in classic. It was one of the few builds I had that dumped absurd amounts of influence into before shutdown. I'm guessing these toggles would have flat effects? Would they have an endurance drain or be free of charge? Would they scale with team size? How would the value of these rate across the gameplay spectrum. What I mean here is that +Rec/+Damage is going to see a lot of use. It may be the single toggle used at all times in the end game. I could see a love for using a +tohit/+defense prior to the SO/IO quality changes around level 22. +Res/+Regen seems like the weakest one of the three. Would these stack per Sentinel or only one toggle works? I dig the gist of the idea, but obviously I have lots of questions!

Critical hit suggestions kind of assume that the Sentinel inherent needs to contribute to damage. When I brought it up before it was because my analysis was suggesting the scalar would need to be around 1.5 (or a little less) in order for the AT to meet a standard applied to other ATs. That includes how the top end builds that get tossed around are constructed. Using critical hits could still give damage effects while allowing the scalar to come down. However, from what CP wrote about scalars, even conceptually, of 1.4+ is just too high. I wouldn't bank on the Sentinel having an AT scalar over 1.125. I wouldn't bank on Sentinels getting critical hits either. Since some of the info here suggests the idea that Sentinels are conceptually better at AoE when compared to Scrappers (reality being determined by perception of a user) then critical hits would have an impact on that possible role too. That impact may be too much of a boost. The only thing I'd be willing to bet on is this; the "fix" won't put an end to "Why play a Sentinel...". The reason why should be apparent. If Sentinels do damage on par with Scrappers, as in indistinguishable, and can be as survivable as they are then there will be "Why play anything other than a Sentinel". I just don't see that happening. So if folks want to free themselves from the shackles of thinking that the inherent needs to be a DPS booster, then your imagination is the only limit. At a least within certain confines of the engine. So if a Sentinel is supposed to be a spotter or a guard it could have an inherent that does something within that definition. Good luck in convincing anyone that the Sentinel is worth bringing to teams under those conditions if their current view is already anti-Sentinel.

I can confirm this, and I've experienced this first hand with every set I have tested. In some sets it just isn't possible to really have a complete attack routine that fits perfectly into that 13~ second ideal. However, some can hypothetically do it even faster (Burst -> Disorienting Shot -> repeat). That parenthetical is actually something I've tried, and it does do what it is suspected of doing rather fast. However, the damage output is far less than I had hope for, and wouldn't do it. I can also confirm that Opportunity doesn't build up to 90% and consume in the same action. This is why I try to build routines that can achieve 90% before the next activation of a T1/T2. Most attack sets can build up meter within 13 seconds assuming enough recharge is being leveraged to do so. This also means that optimal use of Opportunity is locked into build mechanics which are going to be counter the experience of players leveling up. You can have a lot of downtime within attacks as you gain levels and generally those routines aren't ideal anyway. This is assuming single-target fights and will of course just get lost in the usual AoE chaos. There are some AoE powers that build meter per target struck. IIRC, these are largely cones. Flamethrower does this, but Buckshot doesn't. All of Sonic's cones do this, but none of the AoEs in Dual Pistols do it. This has another effect where powers like Flamethrower will return significant amounts of health and endurance under Defensive Opportunity. This may be a bug since I haven't done a dive into the game files to see for myself. Can confirm the bolded statements above. Its better than anything I've done. 😉

I'm assuming all aspects of negative resistance are going to be removed like how Tankers lost Bruising. I'm also assuming that the damage contribution of those -resistance effects would be rolled into the total AT modifier, power damage scalars, or maybe even both. So when I wrote that if the -resistance has to go, then that can be rolled... that's it's damage contribution. Not the debuff itself.

I think the real reasons is going to be how Devices interacts with the build. Sure, the AoE target caps are going to help, but that isn't really a full story. If this is same DP/Devices that Lockpick posted in the Blaster sub it has 45% defense to S/L/E/R. Things that could muddy the waters: 1) Targeting Drone. This grants 80% damage to the first attack. Also, this is slotted with Gaussian's proc which a DP/Nin build cannot do without Tactics. Even with Tactics, the Sentinel will not have the proc rate of Targeting Drone in a solo test. 2) Trip Mine. Trip Mine does more damage than Empty Clips or Bullet Rain on either AT. 3) Defiance BS. Trip Mine grants a high amount of Defiance for clean up efforts. Hail of Bullets, despite its damage bug, is also going to grant a high amount of Defiance. 4) Alpha slot. In this case, the DP/Devices build has Musculature Core T4 as a goal. Is that in actual play yet? Is it in play for the Sentinel yet? 5) Does the Sentinel build use any damage procs? It won't stop the Blaster from mowing down mass targets faster, but it will help the Sentinel with bosses. Other things that aren't taken into account. DP/Devices can regenerate, but it doesn't heal. DP/Nin has more control over its two bars without inspirations being necessary. Nin has far more compressive mez resistance, but that may not be a big deal for this test. The DP/Devices build in question doesn't have Clarion in the plan, but it is unknown if it is currently using it or not. The Knives of Vengeance aren't exactly CC heavy.

Truly appreciate the reply! Also, this validates a lot of my own findings which is also deeply appreciated. For example, the contribution of Offensive Opportunity being what it is. Also the conceptual ideal of "50% uptime". Its why I map out opportunity gains to animation times and build attacks around that. It helps ensure the effect can be triggered in under 15 seconds as long as there are no misses. So on paper a build could have higher than 50% uptime but in reality it trends to hover in the 50% range or worse. Interestingly enough though, the uptime changes a lot in AoE situations. Hopefully, you're aware that some AoE attacks double dip on Opportunity building. For example, Flamethrower in Assault Rifle builds more meter than Empty Clips. I've combined Opportunity Strikes in Full Auto with Flamethrower to have two attacks that can damn near guarantee 100% meter even off a small number of enemies. In group situations, or even solo, this is means Opportunity uptime is actually far greater than 50%. The downtime is literally just the animations of those two powers plus whatever other activation/movement happens. Sure, a missed hit with Burst means a delay but high accuracy/to-hit makes this a low risk. Sonic Blast also has this issue with its cones. Builds that leverage the Epic powers care a lot less about Opportunity as a mechanic and can do significant damage which throws almost all of the concept totally out the window. That's a proc issue though, and I've read how you feel about that. Now, more for everyone else: For folks following in the class; this is why we see disparities and complaints. Some folks have taken the time, an awful lot of time, to figure out how to squeeze this mechanic for the most effort. That level of effort doesn't match or exceed the build ceiling that currently exists in other ATs. This is also why it seems like when folks discuss this AT it is like we're playing two different games. Some people aren't maximizing the AT, and even if they did it still would fall short in their eyes. Yet, if you do push it the AT can do better than it is suspected. This is actually one of my biggest gripes about the AT. It took me a lot of testing to discover everything CP just wrote about. No one should have to do that in order to make an AT feel like it works. Even when it works people can still do the same thing, if not better, on several other ATs for a lot less effort/headache. That's why this needs to change. The damage is an issue, but it is an issue because the entire mechanic requires specific play. That's pretty much contrary to spirit of CoH. Still, the AT can do enough damage when built within certain parameters. While adding up all of the hypothetical damage mods above can put a Sentinel above a Scrapper's modifier under some conditions it really doesn't work out that well in real play. While the hypothetical scale pushes the Sentinel to 1.425 there is still a glaring issue of power disparity between Sentinels and Scrappers. Obviously, there can't be a true apples to apples comparison here. However, it really isn't that uncommon for Scrappers to have around 90+ base damage in T3 power and Sentinels almost universally have 86. Sentinels do best when they can chain cast the best powers. This is true of all ATs, but Sentinels have to. Under the same recharge intensive conditions Scrappers can find themselves chain casting powers doing 90 to 140+ damage. Often times it isn't just one power doing 140 damage but several. Additionally, there are several sets with powers that can do 200+ damage and these too can be rotational. Sentinels are lucky if their highest hitting attack in a given set does 145+ damage. Psionic Blast has the single highest attack with 188 damage in the entire set and it comes with a 3 second animation. Basically, what I'm saying here is there is more to the damage disparity than just temporarily high AT modifiers. The powers themselves are generally weaker than their melee counterparts. Again, this doesn't mean Sentinels can't be made to do more damage because procs do help this. However, the AT is almost reliant on that logic in a build in order to just keep pace with how Scrappers operate on even a basic level. Once again, this is how the Sentinel AT removes a bit of player agency as it makes things far more cookie-cutter than other ATs. This is also really only an argument about the high end of optimization. Still, the fact that it does take pretty significant investment into this AT in order for it to do a fraction of the output of another AT is why it needs an update. For that last sentence, I'm also speaking directly to the power sets themselves and not the inclusion of Epic power abuse. Abusing procs in Dominate/Char/etc. push the AT damage to a different height yet it also changes the interaction with the mechanic like @nihiliimentions. This is also an illustration of how to run this AT in a specific manner in order to achieve an outcome. It shouldn't be that hard for players to replicate quality while still playing to their own concepts. The current implementation doesn't do that. On critical hits. There is another one of these threads where I noted without having an inherent to contribute to damage then the AT's modifier would need to be around 1.5 in order for people to see a difference. Critical hits would just be an easier implementation to smooth out how the damage formula works while still allowing the AT to have what may seem to be meaningful damage (of course, I'm making a lot of assumptions here and I recognize that). Again, I wrote all of that excluding the concept of using proc-fueled Dominate as a solution to all of the AT's issues. So it looks like my assumption on where the modifier would need to go was justified here. Critical hits would certain steal the identity of the current Sentinel. It isn't an ideal solution to me whatsoever, but I'm concern that the loss of Opportunity in its current form may also be rather big blow. I'd honestly like to keep as much of the mechanic available as possible (i.e., Offensive/Defensive components - I like these conceptually, but they need work), but see it streamlined for more ease of play. If the -resistance has to go, then that can be rolled into AT modifiers, but maybe it also needs to be rolled into some power scale review? Maybe? Anyway, I'm looking forward to testing a change.

With just SO's and 3 slots in Fast Healing, Integration, and Health you'd be looking at just over 2% health returned. The actual values of Fast Healing and Integration haven't been changed a whole lot (thankfully). The biggest limiting factor for Sentinel regeneration rates is going to be the lower hit point cap. This is very likely a reason why Instant Regeneration is an absorb shield since it circumvents that whole issue by making a separate repair check. At max health, which is just over 2,000 on Sentinels, that 2.44% regeneration will grant around 50 hp per second. Backing up those powers with HP set bonuses will push the hp per second into the mid 50s. Going for more regeneration bonuses on top of that can very well get you closer to 3% which would be around low to mid 60's if you really crank that up. It doesn't get a whole lot better than that, but Instant Regeneration will always add to that total. So it does become more substantial but the Combat window likely won't reflect this. Stack HP as high as you can without going over, and then consider the following resolutions: 1) Recharge. Recharge helps Reconstruction and Second Wind cool downs. This makes the set more reactive in play, but it always was. 2) Stack additional mitigation. Try to raise Smashing/Lethal resistance some since it is very common and also try to improve the defenses as best you can. That will allow the regeneration rate to work a bit better by expanding your effective hit points. Its difficult to cap either of these since Regeneration values there start low, but some is better than none. 3) A mixed approach. This may be more likely when you start dabbling in purple sets since they come with very large bonuses to health, regeneration or recovery, and recharge. You can fill in the other mitigation gaps with other strong sets. Oddly, I find Sentinel Regeneration to a much better version than Willpower is on the AT. I don't really feel that way in the melee sets.

You may not respond here, but I at least hope you read this. You responded to something I wrote. That's fine. You mentioned this: The bold items are all in regards to damage. It just so happens that Blasters trend towards the higher ends of AoE and ranged damage (not considering some support set shenanigans). It just so happens Stalkers trend towards the higher spectrum of ST damage. You're first thoughts, and these are words you wrote, were all in relation to comparing the Sentinel with two ATs that happen to be the strongest performers in their respective areas. Yes, you brought up the inherent towards the end. However, the inherent comment is placed after the other items. You thought about it last. You're other follow-up response in the same posting mentions target limitations, but sure it's secondary this time. Still, that's a 40 to 60% damage boost we're talking about if cones/spheres hit in the same manner as Blasters. The passive itself is also tied to doing damage. Hell, Blaster and Stalker passives are tied to doing damage and you've already noted how you favor them over Sentinels. So I happened to make a joke about the damage aspect. I apologize if that bothered you. I was hoping the tongue in cheek nature was obvious and I guess it wasn't. However, is it that difficult for you to recognize that when folks bring up Blasters/Stalkers vs Sentinels the underlying theme of what rubs people wrong about it is damage? You decided to follow-up with large scale text and it was definitely written/presented in a manner to talk down to me like I'm an idiot. Here's the thing though. You're follow-up didn't really support you're previous argument very well. At least, not to me, and so I challenged it. That's not at all being "zealous" about the AT. That's pretty laughable actually. We haven't had a one-on-one conversation so you're really in no position to make a claim like that. Its just an ad hominem deflection vs defending a position. You're entitled to your views on why you don't like the AT. I'm not sure why it would be perceived that I am "angry" that you don't care for it. I really don't care. The passive aggressive tone just notes the "angry" comment is projection. So again, I apologize if what I wrote bothered you. Here's thing, If I challenge an idea my intent isn't to shut you down. Its to engage in the debate. Sometimes passions rise high, but that doesn't mean I don't respect other people's views. I'll give credit to people where credit is due, but I'll also challenge hyperbole/poorly defended positions. #olivebranch

All of that big text where you're being condescending only highlights that you feel there are other aspects adding insult to injury for the lack of damage. The lower damage would be acceptable if it did something unique like more AoE, huh? How is that not more damage? You've already hit on the why play a Sentinel when Blasters/Stalkers can do it all better. Now you're just nitpicking and trying to rationalize something else over the damage issue. Its OK if you don't like the AT. Its OK if you don't like it for the damage, or the inherent, or whatever other means. At least be honest with yourself and everyone else though.

Or in other words, the Sentinel has no role to fill for those players that wish to be min-maxed on some aspect. That's really all that boils down to. Here is another phrasing of the question. How much damage you do you need to do? If the answer is ALL OF IT, then pick a Blaster or Stalker. 😉

You could probably get away with lowering Mind Probe to 5 slots and putting the spare slot into Hasten. That would shift the cooldown from 155s to 132. Add some boosters and it will go down a bit more. What Alpha slot where you wanting to go for? There are a few options like Cardiac to address resistance and endurance or some other creative options. You don't need the Aegis Unique since you're capped on Psi Resistance and your actual resistance to status is fairly high. That's resistance, not protection. Speaking of, you've got 3 KB/KD protection just due to the PvP set. I sometimes it a little higher, but that's just something to think about. The 5pc ATO set in TK Blast would get you more melee/smashing/lethal defense. You could move a slot from Obsidian Shield to handle that. You could keep the KB/KD IO that way if you want.

Answer: Why not? Unless a group is specifically trying to do something within arbitrary guidelines, then there is simply no reason to be excluding players running a Sentinel. Sentinels contribute with damage and they are one of the few ranged ATs that are largely hands off. Sure, we could get into circular arguments about this AT can do that, but it also just flat out ignores that this game offers flexibility of play. No one should be pigeon holing all concepts into thou shalt do X DPS or else. If finishing a TF in a few more minutes is really that important, and so much so to kick Sentinels from a team or not even invite them, then I'd seriously worry more about the people making those choices vs the AT itself. Difficulties can be scaled down, and just about every AT subforum has threads about some kind of identity crisis. Well, maybe not Stalkers, or Blasters. Beyond them, there are plenty of folks willing to say "whoa is me" on their AT choice while looking at how green the grass is on the other side. So that question you bring up. It has two sides to it. Does a party care more about AoE or ST? If its ST then the question could easily be why ever bring anything besides a Stalker? If you need something that does damage and is tanky, why ever bring anything than a Brute? Need moar AoE? Why ever bring anyone NOT running their Judgment Incarnate? Oh, I mean... Why bring anything other than a Blaster. Why would anyone ever play anything other than a Night Widow when Ageless is a thing? Why would anyone ever play anything other than a Crab Spider? The answer to all of these questions are just simply staring everyone in the face. Its because players find said AT fun, and this game isn't so difficult it needs super streamlined party compositions. Its when people start imposing their own restrictions that these questions even matter, and even then... they don't.

First off, thank you for chiming in. It has felt a bit like a vacuum here with some of us that actually like this AT and feeling a little abandoned due to all of the toxicity that surrounds discussion like this. I am genuinely curious to know a few things. 1) What is "optimal usage"? - The AT has no instruction book, and I think many of us are missing the design intent. 2) How does Offensive Opportunity turn the AT from "ridiculously low" damage to "absurd high" damage? I've observed Offensive Opportunity adding +8 damage to Pistols, or +20~ damage to Executioner's Shot for example. Is that how we go from low to high damage? Is it really just a function of the large resistance debuff? How does this interact with the purple patch since it is an effect that can be resisted? Again, I am genuinely curious since some of those words look a bit loaded to me. I do feel the AT is capable of consistent damage, but pushing its performance does require manipulation within the IO system. So I am well aware that my own bias of trying to keep up, or tread water, within the current meta absolutely skews my own perspective. I guess in other words, what is the baseline we should be finding as acceptable? I think that lack of understanding would also help clear up a lot of misconceptions here. More importantly, it will help a lot of us that are eager to test any changes to see how it fits in the dev perspective of the game.

"Value" in the realm of the Defensive Opportunity mechanic is a REALLY strong word. In my experience, the value of Defensive Opportunity shifts over the course of the leveling process and in regards to the secondary used. Defensive Opportunity should be at its strongest when enhancement values are at their weakest (especially pre-SO level for most players), but really the effect is at its strongest with the highest amounts of recharge. This is because the effect is only as good as how often you're landing hits and doing so against a high number of enemies. Ironically, by the time you're pushing that much recharge you've very likely gotten your sustain under control. Also, several secondaries, especially the ones considered the best, completely trivialize the endurance management aspect. I've definitely used Defensive Opportunity as a consideration on some builds but those also happened to be ones that already struggle with endurance somewhat. Ageless completely removes that issue but I don't like being bound to that Destiny in all builds. In other words; Defensive Opportunity is already niche at the high end of the spectrum and can be lack luster where it should be the strongest. Critical hits work as a band-aid fix to a lot of other bigger problems. I'm not sure I see this as a replacement to Offensive Opportunity, but instead a replacement to Opportunity; period. The only reason I've suggested this before is because I'm hard pressed to see how a damage boost alone is going to "fix" anything. CP noted before that the inherent may very well be a non-DPS effect that isn't linked to the attacks at all. How that contributes to the team/solo dynamic is totally unknown. As for damage boost itself. I'll refrain from voting on that until a change is actually established. If the inherent won't be used to bring up the DPS value of the AT, then the base multiplier will likely need to exceed 1.125. Keep in mind, the AT already constantly imposes a minor resistance debuff and the core scalar is 0.95. A shift to 1.0 is likely to be completely unnoticed and especially so if that -resistance aspect goes away. If the inherent can't contribute to damage, then I'm honestly hoping we see two things. 1) Scalar improvement. That will be helpful when the current version of Opportunity goes away, if it even does. 2) Power improvements. Powers have their own scalars too, and there are more than enough Sentinel powers that could use a very thorough review. This is especially so in the world of instant snipes. I'd like to see the Sentinel have somewhat comparable damage though spread out over its attacks vs being consolidated into a singular power (i.e., snipes).

I'm not sure if anyone has really answered the question of "anyone want to break down that AT in more detail/experience for me"? I've written a number of threads in the Sentinel subforum that will answer a lot of that for you in more detail if you like. The Sentinel breakdown: - 0.70 modifier on defensive abilities (from Tanker values) - Secondary armor sets changed from their Scrapper/Brute/Tanker/Stalker cousins. Many of these changes are for the better. - Primaries changed from Blaster/Corruptor/Defender cousins. Sentinels have replacements for snipe powers when snipes weren't originally rotational. Sentinels include damage on crowd control abilities where damage didn't really exist (therefore making them rotational). Damage values lessened due to lower scalar. Fire Blast (also Ice) rebalanced from its other AT cousins (it has very large damage gaps when compared to its cousin version; more so than many of the others). Assault Rifle on Sentinels is more normalized in this paradigm and functions very differently from the other ATs. So much so it is in a basket all its own. That's neither a compliment nor is it a criticism. - Sentinel inherent is Opportunity which offers some very minor debuffing consistently and spike debuffs after the meter is full. On top of that debuff there are two additional effects tied directly to the T1 and T2 powers. The T1 grants a damage effect, and the T2 grants a sustain effect (both health and endurance). You do not need both effects, but you'd need both powers if you want access to them. - The point above may make it seem like there is some player agency removed from the AT. - Sentinel Epic/Patron pools have some very powerful effects. Certainly, there are a few very strong outliers, but in general the offerings there are pretty good. They're not mandatory, but certainly useful for enterprising builders. - Normalized cooldown on T9 powers which sometimes works out of the better (and sometimes it doesn't). Assault Rifle on Sentinels (And I do in fact have one, and I actually like it) - Replaces the Snipe with Aim, replaces Beanbag with Disorient Shot, replaced Ignite with Incinerator, and Full Auto has multiple changes (increased arc, shorter range, longer cool down, etc.). Changes shift the set more from being heavily AoE focused into more single-target focused. Snipe changes dramatically improve the viability of using Sniper Rifle more rotationally. That change actually hurts the Sentinel redesign which effectively leaves the AT behind. Sentinel AR has a complicated set of powers in order to raises its performance and this compounded by how Opportunity works. I've gone into depth on this in multiple threads in the Sentinel subforum before, and in speaking with other players. Pairing AR with a strong secondary can be just fine, but its optimization ceiling can be quite low (a common trend for Sentinels in general). Prepare to bend over backwards to make this feel stronger if you care at all about optimization. Then again, if you did care about that you wouldn't be looking at the Sentinel for anything and if you did you'd be more concerned about abusing procs with Dominate. If that sounds like Greek to you, then just play what you like. Beam Rifle on Sentinels (I also have one of these; actually played several variations just like AR) - replaces the Snipe with a Chaining AoE attack. This changes Beam Rifle from being a ST ranged assassin to being a bit more friendly with AoE in both solo and teams. Of the 3 power sets you listed, this may be one of the best ones to choose for a first time Sentinel. Energy Blast - replaces the sniper blast, and Power Push does more damage. Like all Sentinels the target caps are lower. I actually don't play EB on Sentinel, or any AT for that matter, and currently have no plans to do so. EB on Sentinels is in a similar boat to AR. Its damage is a common complaint and EB isn't that much of a top performer (much like AR). Again, you can use procs and other IO tricks to make this work a bit better if you're willing to do that. Also, just like AR, if you're really interested in optimization then we wouldn't be talking about this set in the first place. Can you complete content and contribute in groups with any of those 3? Of course you can. The real question is going to be whether you enjoy what the AT offers you or not. The only way to find out is to roll one and see what it is like for a bit. Power creep is in favor of the Blaster, but the Sentinel will eventually be changed. So that pendulum may swing differently in the future or it may not.

That's not an accurate assessment. Sentinel Buckshot and Flamethrower hit fewer targets but their range and arc aren't narrow. Buckshot has a 30 degree firing arc and Flamethrower has a 45 degree firing arc. Sentinel Full Auto has less range (its 80 on other ATs), but it has the wider firing arc (90 degrees vs 20 degrees).