modest

November 19, 2020

@Jacke Thank you for taking the time to correct your posts. We all make mistakes, and it shows strength of character that you took ownership and provided the corrected information.

You may find the CoH Homecoming Powers API made by @RubyRed helpful when determining how a power functions. It includes all of the back-end data for powers currently on the servers, and the data for the powers in the i27 beta.

@Bopper is also working on an updated City of Data spreadsheet. Here is a link to the version for the i27 Beta.

I agree with your conclusion that Touch of Fear is an awful power.

November 19, 2020

8 hours ago, Jacke said:

And as Touch of Fear's fear is still only on the selected target, it's now a slower fear power. It also went from being the best Single Target Attack to now being the worst AoE attack. Shadow Punch is a better filler in a ST chain.

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

I'd manage to miss that ToF had damage added, sometime after Siphon Life received damage I'd think.... Okay, I can't find when either power gained damage. But on i26p5, it has the damage I posted above. And in fact in i26p5 is the best ST attack, better than Midnight Grasp (except for alpha strike and it gives fear as opposed to immobilize).

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

lol I had no idea ToF had been given damage on Live until JUST NOW.

EDIT: Well, no wonder, it's ONLY SCRAPPERS that currently have damage on ToF.

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

Me too. Last night I got the numbers from the character creators for both i26p5 and i27p1 and though "When did Touch of Fear become so awesome ?!? And now....". And still went back to the character creator today to confirm. ToF has damage on i26p5 and Midnight Grasp is only better for alpha strike and immobilize.

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

But only for Scrappers. No one else does damage with it.

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

Good catch. Confirmed.

And another excellent point.

I'm assuming what's in the character creators both i26p5 and i27p1 descriptions is correct. My experience with the powers besides the old and the new Touch of Fear jive with what the numbers say. I don't think I've ever hit more than 5 with Shadow Maul and certainly at most very rarely, so its target cap reduction shouldn't change that.

This is misinformation. Prior to the i27 Beta, Touch of Fear did not do damage on any archetype. Touch of Fear was never a high damage single target attack. It is not a high damage single target attack on the live servers.

Here are the steps that I took to verify the current status and history of Touch of Fear:

I checked RubyRed's API.
I checked the Paragon Wiki archives, and the Homecoming wiki.
I logged into my Dark Melee Scrapper on Everlasting, respecced into Touch of Fear, and tested it.
I observed my combat logs.

Touch of Fear on the live (i26) servers has the following effects on a Scrapper:

3.0 terrorize for 22.35s on target.
30.00% chance for 1.0 terrorize for 10.43s on target.
-11.25% to hit for 20s on target.

Touch of Fear on the live (i26) servers allows the following IO set types on a Scrapper:

Reduced Endurance Cost
Enhance Recharge Speed
Enhance Fear
Enhance ToHit Debuffs
Enhanced Accuracy

I understand the dislike of the i27 Beta version of Touch of Fear. I am also highly critical of the power. However, please do not spread misinformation. If other players make claims that you are unsure about, please verify the veracity of those claims prior to repeating them.

@Saikochoro was correct to ask this question:

1 hour ago, Saikochoro said:

I thought I read in the past that the damage displayed for ToF was a bug a long time ago. Does it actually do damage if you go in and hit a mob with it? If so, then darn I should have actually tested to confirm what I read.

November 15, 2020

19 minutes ago, Hew said:

Because epics are... epic? You know, not a t1,2,3 or 4 power that you generally cycle out of anyway because it no longer supports high level play at the same level as 5,6,7,8,9 powers?

Touch of Fear is the T8 power for Stalkers.

4 hours ago, Hew said:

I have said positive things, and I have tested it extensively. Please do not lump me blindly in with a group of people that do not reflect how I feel or what I do or do not like the power, based on proximity of actually testing.

Thank you.

I apologize for having besmirched the honor of your clan. Please consider yourself de-lumped with eyes wide open.

November 14, 2020

@Jimmy Please take the time to read the feedback from players who have tested the Dark Melee changes on the beta server. Of the players who have actually tested the new Touch of Fear, none of them have had anything positive to say about it.

The beta version of Touch of Fear is objectively the worst spherical AOE power that Stalkers receive. I'll quote Bopper's post here with the numbers that back up that statement:

On 11/11/2020 at 5:09 PM, Bopper said:

Just a quick break down of numbers, I count 14 primary attacks available to Stalkers that are classified as Spherical AoEs. Among those, only Spine Burst has lower DPA (but is available at level 2 and has a 15 ft radius as opposed to ToF available at level 26 with 6 ft radius). In terms of raw damage, Touch of Fear is by far the worst of these powers, doing only 0.8630 scale damage (over 3.1 seconds). Next lowest is Spine Burst with its 1.1362 scale damage (+31.7%).

If the intent of these changes is to improve the AOE performance of a set that underperforms in AOE damage, then what is the point of adding a new power to the set that is measurably worse than every other existing power?

If the intent is to provide a quick fix to Dark Melee's lack of AOE performance, then might I suggest a simpler change: increase the radius of Shadow Maul to match the 10ft radius of Energy Melee's new cone, Power Crash. According to Ruby's API, Shadow Maul has a DPA of 38 and the new Power Crash has a DPA of 60.3 (without Arcanatime factored in either calculation). Shadow Maul has a radius of 7ft, and Power Crash has a radius of 10ft.

This small change would provide Dark Melee with a considerable AOE boost from levels 2 through 35, and would negate the need to introduce any new or altered powers until the developers have a chance to give Dark Melee further consideration.

November 14, 2020

5 hours ago, Saikochoro said:

Dark melee is one of my favorite sets. I honestly think these changes are overboard. It is already has strong single target damage especially given that soul drain has such high uptime. I don’t think siphon life needs to have higher dpa. It is already a decent attack and doubles as rotational healing.

Making touch of fear a nuke on top of buffing shadow maul is just asking for the set to be subsequently nerfed. I don’t want another Titan weapons. I’d argue to scrap the touch of fear changes altogether and just buff the range and arc of shadow maul. I don’t think every set needs to have great single target AND great AoE damage. Balance wise each set should have a scaling mix of both.

I’m not saying I wouldn’t have fun with the OPs suggestions. I just feel they are too much and the result would be overpowered. Just my opinion.

This is a valid opinion. I think that the set would be much improved by following what you describe:

Scrap the i27 Beta Touch of Fear change.
Increase the radius of Shadow Maul.

I am most familiar with the Stalker version of Dark Melee, and on a Stalker the DPA of Siphon Life isn't very good. On a Stalker, Siphon Life is the T7 attack, but it has a lower DPA than the T2 attack. Increasing the DPA to the level of Smite would balance out the set. This would bring its Single Target damage to the level of Electrical Melee, a set that isn't particularly valued for its Single Target output.

The PBAoE mini-nuke is a nice-to-have-but-not-necessary request. Captain Powerhouse put a version of the PBAoE nuke on a previous Beta patch for us to test, and it was very well received and quite fun to use.

November 12, 2020

Thank you to @Kanil for testing the Scrapper version of the set.

Captain Powerhouse previously stated that the design intent for Touch of Fear is to be a filler AOE skill that can be replaced once a character is leveled to the point where they can take Epic pool AOE skills, or pool power attacks. Touch of Fear is intentionally balanced to have extremely low damage because it is intended to be used while buffed with a saturated Soul Drain. However, Scrappers and Brutes get Soul Drain at 26, and Brutes get Soul Drain at 28. That is just a few levels shy of when Epic pools are available. Touch of Fear underperforms significantly until Soul Drain at levels 26 and 28 respectively, at which point it becomes an average AoE attack if buffed by a 150% damage buff.

1 hour ago, Hew said:

What does this look like when you factor in 2 mob soul drain, with 50% uptime and 100% uptime?

It seems that the dpa is intentionally anemic when you count souldrain in, but I don't really know what that means in "math" numbers. Figuring it with 50% uptime and only 2 mobs seems a reasonable capability for a mildly slotted player. 4 mobs and ~100% uptime would also be a good bellweather to get a feel for it, sans slotting of power (just raw input from drain)

Thanks!

On a Scrapper at level 50, with Soul Drain at 100% uptime, with Soul Drain gaining bonuses from hitting two enemies, and with Touch of Fear slotted to 100% damage, it will deal 117 damage (69.7 DPA). A minion at 50 has 430.80. It will take 4 applications of the skill to kill a level 50 minion, assuming that the minion has no resistance to negative energy.

At level 50, a lieutenant has 857.50 health and a boss has 2,570.20 health. It will take 8 applications to kill a lieutenant and 22 applications to kill a boss, assuming that they have no resistance to negative energy.

Stalkers do not receive Soul Drain, but let's be generous and assume that Build Up has a 100% uptime, and that Touch of Fear is slotted for 100% damage. In that (impossible) scenario, Touch of Fear will deal 135.6 damage (64 DPA). It will take 4 applications to kill an even level minion. It will take 7 applications to kill a lieutenant, and 22 applications to kill a boss.

November 12, 2020

15 minutes ago, Ratch_ said:

I like the direction and organization of your post. Only thing I would like to see happen is for some kind of benefit for critting on Touch of Fear. It doesn't have to be in the form of extra damage, but some benefit would be cool like how it was handled with energy melee in returning life on a crit or getting an additional stack of energy focus.

What the benefit would be I am not sure, but as a theme of dark I wouldn't mind having a 28% damage boost on crit'ed targets and then receiving a heal (mimicing life being siphoned out of them)

Thank you for your feedback. It would be nice if some crit mechanic were implemented. I did not suggest it because I tried to follow the precedent set by other melee nukes.

November 12, 2020

I created a separate thread in the Suggestions forum where I proposed Dark Melee changes that are different than the ones in this thread. I am cross-posting that thread here because the changes that I propose are significantly different than what is on the test server, and more closely follow the original proposals that Captain Powerhouse made in a previous Beta Feedback thread.

November 12, 2020

The developers have indicated that they wish to make changes to Dark Melee on all archetypes in order to make the set more balanced. The changes that I propose are independent of those that are a part of the i27 Beta. Please direct comments on the i27 Beta changes to this thread.

The perceived problem with Dark Melee is that it lacks AOE damage compared to other sets. It is also lacking in single target damage, but it arguably makes up for this lower damage by providing utility in the form of tohit debuffs and a slight heal in Siphon Life. The Scrapper, Brute, and Tanker versions of Dark Melee benefit from Soul Drain, a 30 second damage and tohit buff that scales based on the number of enemies hit when it is cast. The changes that I propose would not significantly increase the single target damage. The intention of these changes to create a balanced power set.

Shadow Punch – Increase the damage by 10%.
- Shadow Punch is currently a poor performing power on all archetypes. A slight increase in damage would make it a good filler.
- This would especially benefit Tankers who are forced to take this power.
Smite – No proposed changes.
Shadow Maul – Increase the radius to 10ft. Keep the animation time, damage, radius, and target caps as they are.
- This would increase the damage so that it performs above the damage formula. Here's why I do not think that this is a problem:
  - Every high-performing power set receives at least one power that does not follow the damage formula.
  - War Mace: Clobber.
  - Claws: Spin.
  - Street Justice: Crushing Uppercut.
  - Super Strength: Knockout Blow.
  - Stone Melee: Seismic Smash.
  - i27 Energy Melee: fast Energy Transfer, Stalker Power Crash.
  - Titan Weapons: I won't comment on specific powers because Titan Weapons is currently being worked on. Please check the Beta Thread for details.
- There is precedent for 8-10ft cones in other melee sets.
  - Frost in Ice Melee.
  - Power Crash in i27 Energy Melee.
  - Guarded Spin in Staff Fighting.
  - Defensive Sweep in Titan Weapons.
  - Sweeping Strike in Titan Weapons.
  - Crowd Control in War Mace.
- This would be the only substantial source of AOE in the set until the T9.
Siphon Life – Decrease the animation time or increase the damage so that the DPA matches the DPA of Smite.
- This would provide Dark Melee with two moderate damage single target attacks.
Dark Consumption – Move to T4. No functional changes.
Soul Drain – No proposed changes.
Midnight Grasp – No proposed changes.
Touch of Fear – Move this power to T9. Turn it into a PBAoE mini-nuke power.
- This idea was originally proposed by @Captain Powerhouse. It was disparaged in the feedback thread, but I think that the idea is good and should be pursued.
- The PBAoE would have the same damage, recharge time, radius, and target cap as Lightning Rod from Electrical Melee.
- The PBAoE would not teleport the character. Instead, it would retain the existing tohit debuff and 3.0 terrorize for 10.43s.
- The PBAoE would deal damage in 8 ticks over 4 seconds. This fits thematically with Dark Melee's existing powers.
- The PBAoE would not be able to crit.

Here is how the proposed Dark Melee would look on the archetypes:

Scrapper

Power	Level	Effect
Shadow Punch	1	Melee, Minor DMG(Smash/Negative), Foe -To Hit
Smite	1	Melee, Moderate DMG(Smash/Negative), Foe -To Hit
Shadow Maul	2	Melee (Cone), High DoT(Smash/Negative), Foe -To Hit
Dark Consumption	6	PBAoE, Moderate DMG(Negative), Self +End
Siphon Life	8	Melee, Moderate DMG(Negative), Foe -To Hit, Self Heal
Confront	12	Ranged, Foe Taunt, -Range
Soul Drain	18	PBAoE, Moderate DMG(Negative), Self +DMG, +To Hit
Midnight Grasp	26	Melee, Superior DMG(Negative), Foe Immobilize, -To Hit
Touch of Fear	32	PBAoE, Superior DMG(Negative), Foe Fear, -To Hit

Brute

Power	Level	Effect
Shadow Punch	1	Melee, Minor DMG(Smash/Negative), Foe -To Hit
Smite	1	Melee, Moderate DMG(Smash/Negative), Foe -To Hit
Shadow Maul	2	Melee (Cone), High DoT(Smash/Negative), Foe -To Hit
Dark Consumption	6	PBAoE, Moderate DMG(Negative), Self +End
Siphon Life	8	Melee, Moderate DMG(Negative), Foe -To Hit, Self Heal
Taunt	12	Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe Taunt, -Range
Soul Drain	18	PBAoE, Moderate DMG(Negative), Self +DMG, +To Hit
Midnight Grasp	26	Melee, Superior DMG(Negative), Foe Immobilize, -To Hit
Touch of Fear	32	PBAoE, Superior DMG(Negative), Foe Fear, -To Hit

Tanker

Power	Level	Effect
Shadow Punch	1	Melee, Minor DMG(Smash/Negative), Foe -To Hit
Smite	2	Melee, Moderate DMG(Smash/Negative), Foe -To Hit
Shadow Maul	4	Melee (Cone), High DoT(Smash/Negative), Foe -To Hit
Taunt	10	Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe Taunt, -Range
Siphon Life	16	Melee, Moderate DMG(Negative), Foe -To Hit, Self Heal
Dark Consumption	20	PBAoE, Moderate DMG(Negative), Self +End
Soul Drain	28	PBAoE, Moderate DMG(Negative), Self +DMG, +To Hit
Midnight Grasp	35	Melee, Superior DMG(Negative), Foe Immobilize, -To Hit
Touch of Fear	38	PBAoE, Superior DMG(Negative), Foe Fear, -To Hit

Stalker

Power	Level	Effect
Shadow Punch	1	Melee, Minor DMG(Smash/Negative), Foe -To Hit
Smite	1	Melee, Moderate DMG(Smash/Negative), Foe -To Hit
Shadow Maul	2	Melee (Cone), High DoT(Smash/Negative), Foe -To Hit
Assassin's Eclipse	6	Melee, Special Damage(Smash/Negative)
Build Up	8	Self +DMG, +To Hit
Placate	12	Ranged, Foe Placate, Self Stealth/Hide
Siphon Life	18	Melee, Moderate DMG(Negative), Foe -To Hit, Self Heal
Midnight Grasp	26	Melee, Superior DMG(Negative), Foe Immobilize, -To Hit
Touch of Fear	32	PBAoE, Superior DMG(Negative), Foe Fear, -To Hit

Thank you to @Bopper and @Kanil for discussing this with me on Discord, and credit to @Captain Powerhouse for the idea of adding a mini-nuke with a DoT component to the set.

November 11, 2020

6 hours ago, Hew said:

While true, you don't get epic aoes until, well, epic levels. SM + ToF are available immediately, offer slotting choices with procs (ToF can be proc'd pretty heavily) or for set bonuses, and using attuned sets gets you bonuses that you probably don't have until epic levels due to slot compatability.

To me, this is a QoL change that enables more accessibility to aoe than just shadow maul, especially at low levels. Not all QoL changes mean guaranteed moar damagez.

I approached the changes with the mindset that they were a QoL change that would improve the AoE output of the set, but play testing revealed that they were not. It's not a question of "moar damagez", and framing someone else's opinion in this manner is not helpful and only serves to devalue your argument.

On a Stalker, Touch of Fear takes three or more uses to kill an even-level minion at lower levels. At level 50 with T4 incarnates, it can take four or more uses to kill a level 50 minion. It is nearly impossible to hit more than three targets with the skill. With a 6ft radius, the target cap of 10 is functionally meaningless. These issues go beyond the lack of damage; the power has fundamental problems with its functionality and design.

The skill is not much better on a Scrapper. It appears to have been designed with the idea that it will be affected by a fully-saturated Soul Drain at all times. This is a terrible design choice because that does not reflect the actual game play of a Dark Melee character. Even if we accept the premise that Touch of Fear will be under the influence of Soul Drain that provides a permanent 120% damage buff, Touch of Fear slotted purely with damage IOs will deal 178 damage (84 DPA) over 3.1 seconds in a 6ft radius. In comparison, Spin from Claws slotted in the same way with 0% damage buffs from skills will deal 228 damage (86 DPA) in an 8ft radius to 10 targets. Again, that's without Build Up/Folow Up applied to it. The skill looks even worse when compared to the top performing AOE skills such as Fire Ball which, on a Scrapper, deals 144 damage (121 DPA) in a 15ft radius to 16 targets.

I'll expand for a moment on why it does not make sense for Touch of Fear (or any of Dark Melee's skills) to be balanced with the assumption that they will be affected by Soul Drain. The simplest and best argument for why this should not be done is that this has not been the practice for any other power sets that receive damage% buffs. For example, Blasters receive damage buffs from their inherent Defiance. Blaster ranged attacks are not given lower damage to compensate for the significant damage buff that Blasters receive. Some Blaster secondaries (Martial Combat: Reach for the Limit) provide additional damage buffs. The skills in Martial Combat were not balanced with lower damage to compensate for the damage buff. It simply does not make sense to do so.

Edit: @Bopper pointed out to me that Mid's is incorrect and that Soul Drain on a Scrapper can actually buff by 150% total. I do not think that the extra 30% will meaningfully change the function of Touch of Fear, but I am editing my post here for accuracy.

Bopper kindly calculated Touch of Fear with the 150% modifier for me. With a fully-saturated 150% Soul Drain, Touch of Fear is behind Fireball, Exploding Shuriken, Whirling Smash, Spinning Strike, and Ball Lightning. It's my opinion that it's not reasonable to balance Touch of Fear as if it were affected by this 150% damage buff, but I'm adding this information to this post for accuracy.

November 11, 2020

I performed some playtesting tonight with the latest version of Energy Melee on the beta server using an Energy Melee/Energy Aura Stalker. My impressions are that it is now a well-balanced set. My only criticism is that the flow of combat was not as smooth as a set without build/spend mechanics, but I don't think that can be avoided. The build/spend mechanic of this set felt good to me.

The Stalker version of Power Crash was enjoyable to use. I also wish that it wasn't a spender, but it wasn't a large annoyance. I might have been annoyed by Power Crash using my focus stacks it if I were playing a build that had lower recharge.

My overall impression is that this set is well designed and ready for live.

November 11, 2020

This feedback is for the Dark Melee changes that are on the Beta server as of Tuesday, November 10, 2020. I tested Dark Melee on a Dark Melee/Energy Aura Stalker. My feedback is for the Stalker version of Dark Melee.

Shadow Maul:

The power changes notes state that the target cap of Shadow Maul was reduced from 10 to 5. This version of Shadow Maul has a 7 ft. radius and 120° arc.

I tested this version of Shadow Maul by attempting to line up groups of enemies in the Rikti War Zone. I gained their attention, then circled until they were in as tight of a clump as possible. Once they were grouped together, I faced the group as close as possible and activated Shadow Maul. I was unable to hit 5 enemies in any of the tests that I attempted. I suspect that the cause of this was the 7ft radius. My recommendation is to increase the radius to 9ft or 10ft.

My conclusion when testing this change is that the target cap reduction does not have a measurable impact on the power because it is either incapable of hitting 5 enemies in most game play.

Touch of Fear:

Unfortunately, it is difficult for me to provide constructive feedback on this power because, as far as I can tell, it has no redeeming qualities.

Touch of Fear is a Targeted AOE attack with a 7ft range, a 6ft radius, and a target cap of 10. On a Stalker, it does 5 ticks of 9.60 negative damage over 3.1s (48 damage). It has an animation time of 1.97 seconds before Arcanatime.

Here are the issues that I identified with this power:

It is functionally impossible to hit more than 3 enemies with this power due to its 6ft radius. The 10 target cap is essentially meaningless.
The damage is too low to be meaningful. At level 50 with full T4 incarnates, this power takes four or more applications to kill a level 50 minion.
The damage takes too long to be applied. 3.1 seconds is simply too long, especially given the low damage per tick.
The animation time of 1.97 seconds is too long. It would be tolerable if this were an exceptionally high-damaging power.

Conclusion:

After play testing these changes, I have come to the conclusion that the target cap change to Shadow Maul has no measurable effect on the power. Touch of Fear is the single worst AOE power that I have ever play tested, and I have no positive feedback to provide regarding it. Every aspect of that power is poorly designed.

When Dark Melee AOE buffs were first discussed, @Captain Powerhouse suggested providing Dark Melee with a mini-nuke similar to Lightning Rod, but without the teleport component. I thought that his suggestion was good at the time, and I still feel that it is a good suggestion. I recommend completely removing these changes to Dark Melee from the i27 update until a better solution can be devised.

Dark Melee is currently an under-performing set based on the tests performed by @Galaxy Brain. If these changes are implemented, then they will have no positive effect on Stalkers. These changes are effectively a minor but unnoticeable nerf to an under-performing set.

November 9, 2020

I would love for Sonic Attack to receive a balance pass. I've played a lot of Sonic Attack: the character "Modest" has always been a Sonic Attack Defender. Here's a short list of what I would recommend:

Increase the damage on all powers other than Dreadful Wail.
- The cones need the damage increased the most. They are Sonic Attack's sources of AOE, and without proc slotting their damage is horrid.
- The single target attacks do not need a huge increase in damage. A small increase would make this set more enjoyable.
Decrease the animation times of Scream, Howl, Shockwave, and Shout.
- Shout is especially miserable given that it is a low damage attack with a 2.9 second animation.
Change the knockback in Shockwave to knockdown.
Increase the arc of Shockwave to 50% to match the arc of Siren's song. Sonic Attack's cones have relatively low range, and it would be nice if they were given a wider arc to compensate for that poor range.
Increase the range of Siren's Song to 50ft to match the range of Howl and Shockwave. It is annoying that the three cones in this set do not have the same range.
Add a 8 second -res debuff component to Shockwave and Siren's Song.
- The -res debuff is Sonic Attack's only appeal. Two of its AOE powers lack the -res debuff that the rest of the powers have.
Lower Siren Song and Screech's recharge to 16 or 18 seconds.
Increase Shockwave's recharge to between 10 and 16 seconds.
Ideally, add @Bopper's "echo" mechanic to the set.

Mercenaries, Assault Rifle, and Kinetic Melee are the three other sets that come to mind.

Archery and Sonic Resonance are under performers, but I don't think that they're bad enough to need an "emergency fix".

September 21, 2020

15 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

Then what I believe you are saying is that resistance debuffs are not subject to traditional debuff resistance and instead processed through their own separate mechanics. Which would ironically make debuffs that are not -res (outside of -regen, which is a special case) incredibly less valuable and thus only make the problem of everything being focused around killing worse since even the valuable support sets are focused around killing lol.

So say -def and -spd would be subject to ridiculous debuff resistance and yet -resist would be subject to a much smaller reduction, as shown in the picture Doomrider posted above.. That might be worse than all debuffs being resisted heavily if that's the case.

Resistance and regeneration debuffs are the most impactful debuffs at the end game. Resistance debuffs directly increase the damage of the entire team. They also allow a team to deal damage above the damage cap of their archetype, and increase the damage dealt by damage procs.

-Regeneration debuffs are very helpful against targets with high health and regeneration. The values of powers that debuff regeneration are typically either 500% or 1000%. Those percentages are so high that they have a large impact even if they are heavily resisted.

Damage and ToHit are heavily resisted, but they can be layered/stacked enough to have an effect. For example, my Storm/Dark Defender can lower a level 52 Praetorian archvillain's ToHit to 32%. As a result, due to the way that tohit and defense work, the archvillain has a 9.90% ToHit chance. That extra survival is not necessary for an end game team, but it is a meaningful debuff when solo.

September 21, 2020

52 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

Not unless you're recharged and hastened out they don't. All of those times are even less than 1/3rd of their base recharge. Considering that only happens when you're twinked out I think my shorthand of 1/3rd of the power recharge is much more fair as most people will never be fully twinked out and indeed most of your character's career will not be in that state. Even serious players don't fully outfit every character they create or play to that level. If you base all balance on the bleeding edge capability you will inevitably get skewed results when comparing it to the average experience. Everyone gets extremely broken with end game with full IO sets and incarnates, we know that and that's part of why kill speed has become so fast.

Sleet and Heat Loss are both AOE debuffs, meaning you want to use them primarily on groups and you'll want to have them ready for the next group. If they finish recharging 3-5 seconds into the next group then its effectively down for that group due to the level of damage teams do at your tricked out levels just plowing through groups. Envenom has a shorter cooldown because it's primarily a single target debuff, the AOE portion of it is fairly small and does a lesser debuff than done to the main target. Envenom's entire set is focused around a single target and even with the proc machine that is poison trap it's struggled for a long time largely because of that. Because the reality is that most fights in this game are group fights and normal bosses go down plenty fast enough to all other power sets. And AV/EB/GM only receive like 15% of your debuff. So that massive -85% res poison defender can deal out is reduced down to -12.75% res. Still enough to make a difference but not as crazy as it looks starting out.

That is not how resistance debuffs work. Resistance debuffs are resisted by resistance.

September 21, 2020

3 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

It's absolutely the case. Debuffing sets are competitive to buffing during normal level ranges but as levels rise they are left behind.

- Buffing sets get full value while debuffing sets get 50%/30% of their original value vs +4/+5. Vs the hardest targets this scales down even further to 15% vs AV/EB/GM.

- Buffs uptime is based only on duration/recharge considerations...if your buffs are up 100% of the time then they have ~100% uptime, perhaps as low as 95% due to application delay depending on recharges/team organization. Debuffing set requires application every new mob so your recharge needs to be as fast as your clear speed for you to have 100% uptime. A debuff with 30 second duration and 20 second recharge still does not have anything close to 100% uptime.

- Buffs are on before a fight starts, debuffs require time to apply at the start of a fight.

- If the team splits your buffs are still helping everyone they are on 100%. If the team splits your debuffs only affect those people near you.

- Targeted AOE debuffs respect the AOE cap, thus an AOE buff that hits your whole teams works on everyone but a targeted AOE that attacks an enemy mob often dos not effect the entire mob. This is actually something Trick Arrow does not have to worry about and that's a noticeable advantage of the set, especially with large pulls, multiple pulls, or ambushes into the same area. But it can be a significant concern for other debuffing sets.

Debuffs are competitive in +2/+3 level content because debuffing values are balanced much higher than buffing values and they affect the whole team targeting the debuffed enemy. Acid Arrow for example gives a ludicrous -41% defense and -20% resistance to a single target and is spammable and when stacked with disruption arrow that's -40% res. But you don't get that vs +4/+5. You get 20.5%/10% -def/-res and 12.3%/6% -def/-res. Vs AV/EB/GM its even worse at 6.15%/3% -def/-res. Also because of the hardcap of 95% chance to hit it's never going to have 100% uptime and any accuracy targeted debuff will face that.

But lets take your example of Cold Domination stacking an absurd amount of -res. You put -60% res before diminishing returns in AOE target with a theoretical 100% uptime on sleet and 50% uptime on Heat Loss. Higher with recharge and hasten so for fun overkill let's just assume 1/3rd of the original recharge for a recharge of 20 seconds and 120 seconds. Theoretically sleet should always have 100% uptime and Heat Loss should have 75% uptime. But that's not how it works in practice. In practice you apply those debuffs to a group and they die within 15 seconds, prolly less than 10 if you have blaster or sentinel nukes available. And then you gotta let the someone go in first to engage/soak alpha so damage is often being done, sometimes entire nukes landing, before debuffs even land. So realistic maximum uptime is closer to 60%-70% on sleet and like 10% on Heat Loss. Sure on a well oiled team nukes will wait for your debuffs, but you described a version of the game in which most people take empathy as a healer set and ignore the buffs so we're already not assuming anything close to a well oiled team. Also, your ideas of how defense scales and how people are built has some dissonance with your idea of how people play empathy even at high levels. Remember, almost all of us on these servers are CoH veterans. Either alot of the playerbase are derps who cannot expect to play well and build well (meaning healing also still has value) OR you're overblowing your comments about people playing empathy. And again, a single incarnate on teams invalidates basically all impressions of how that team functions because incarnates can often force even bad teams to succeed for anything but the hardest content (since they can often solo or almost solo the entire mission themselves)....that hardest content being like 1% of the total content of the game lol.

On paper at face value debuffs are still good. But realistically as kill rate increases debuffs get much worse (lower uptime) and as level scaling increases debuffs get much worse (lower values). Both of these happen in very high level content. Which is why my TA/A is dang near a paper weight in high level teams and my Empathy defender can still make a huge difference. Oil Slick Arrow is a joke on high level teams while being amazing on mid level teams. With a recharge of at least 60 seconds even at 1/3rd of base recharge it has a very low uptime when groups are dying in 20 seconds or less. Even lower due to the application+lighting lag and the need to fire disruption arrow and acid arrow first to avoid sacrificing on their uptime. And the damage/slow/knockdown vs +4/+5 is minor despite it being so strong against +2s. Again, TA/A is a main of mine from sunset, I'm extremely well versed in it and it suffers severely from the problems I mention.

@Ralathar44 You possess a fundamental misunderstanding of the mechanics of the game. I recommend that you take the time to read up on the mechanics of resistance, archvillain resistances, and the manner in which resistance serves to resist resistance debuffs. The information that you have written is incorrect, but you have displayed a sincere attempt to understand the mechanics, and I think that you might value debuffs more once you gain a greater understanding of the mechanics.

Sleet recharges in 13-16 seconds. Heat Loss recharges in ~81-82 seconds and is permanent. Some resistance debuffs recharge even quicker. For example, Envenom from Poison recharges in ~4 seconds.

In end game content such as incarnate trials, task forces, and strike forces, the only characters that provide a net contribution to a team when compared to a damage dealer are debuff support sets and a single Kinetics player. This has been thoroughly tested by trial and task force challengers.

In end game content, players gain little to no value from healing, Fortitude, Adrenaline Boost, or Recovery Aura. Players are able to meet their own defense and recovery needs through the use of IOs, and a single Kinetics character adds more damage, endurance, and recharge than an Empathy character. Empathy simply is not needed on an end game team. It offers little to no value, and is objectively worse than bringing an additional damage dealer to the team.

September 10, 2020

22 minutes ago, Scientist said:

An interesting note in regards this is that I believe they are not affected by the purple patch from what I read long ago, i.e. a level 54 AV still gets the full -20% res from an Achilles, because they are not +4 to themselves, and they are "casting" it on themself.

This information is not correct.

September 7, 2020

17 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Changed the above to show what I was thinking.

I will update my original post to include your corrections.

September 7, 2020

After I posted the tables, I noticed that @Bill Z Bubba updated his earlier posts. I have edited the above list to include the corrected version shared by @Bill Z Bubba.

September 7, 2020

I created a spreadsheet of all of the suggestions suggested in this thread so that I could visually compare them.

Bopper + Modest design:

Level	Power name	Function
Level 1	Focused Fighting	Toggle: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res(Confuse, DEF Debuff)
Level 2	Focused Senses	Toggle: Self +DEF(Ranged), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Perception
Level 4	Evasion	Toggle: Self +DEF(AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff)
Level 10	Practiced Brawler	Click: Self +Res(Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Immobilize, Knockback), 10% Absorb
Level 16	Agility	Auto: Self +DEF(Melee, Ranged, AOE), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 20	Quickness	Auto: Self +Res(-Recharge, -SPD), +Recharge, +SPD
Level 28	Enduring	Auto: Self +Recovery, +DEF(Psionic), Res(DeBuff DEF), Res(DMG, Special)
Level 35	Burst of Speed	Location AoE Moderate DMG (Smash), Self Teleport
Level 38	Elude	Self +DEF(Melee, Ranged, AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Recovery, +SPD, +Jump, +Special

Sentinel design:

Level	Power name	Function
Level 1	Focused Fighting	Toggle: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res(Confuse, DEF Debuff)
Level 2	Focused Senses	Toggle: Self +DEF(Ranged), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Perception
Level 4	Evasion	Toggle: Self +DEF(AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff)
Level 10	Practiced Brawler	Click: Self +Res(Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Immobilize, Knockback), 10% Absorb
Level 16	Enduring	Auto: Self +Recovery, +DEF(Psionic), Res(DeBuff DEF), Res(DMG, Special)
Level 20	Agile	Auto: Self +DEF(Ranged, AOE), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 28	Dodge	Auto: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 35	Quickness	Auto: Self +Res(-Recharge, -SPD), +Recharge, +SPD
Level 38	Elude	Self +DEF(Melee, Ranged, AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Recovery, +SPD, +Jump, +Special

Powers reordered Sentinel:

Level	Power name	Function
Level 1	Focused Fighting	Toggle: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res(Confuse, DEF Debuff)
Level 2	Focused Senses	Toggle: Self +DEF(Ranged), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Perception
Level 4	Evasion	Toggle: Self +DEF(AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff)
Level 10	Practiced Brawler	Click: Self +Res(Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Immobilize, Knockback), 10% Absorb
Level 16	Agile	Auto: Self +DEF(Ranged, AOE), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 20	Dodge	Auto: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 28	Quickness	Auto: Self +Res(-Recharge, -SPD), +Recharge, +SPD
Level 35	Enduring	Auto: Self +Recovery, +DEF(Psionic), Res(DeBuff DEF), Res(DMG, Special)
Level 38	Elude	Self +DEF(Melee, Ranged, AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Recovery, +SPD, +Jump, +Special

Powers reordered Sentinel (@Bill Z Bubba) design without Enduring:

Level	Power name	Function
Level 1	Focused Fighting	Toggle: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res(Confuse, DEF Debuff)
Level 2	Focused Senses	Toggle: Self +DEF(Ranged), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Perception
Level 4	Evasion	Toggle: Self +DEF(AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff)
Level 10	PB or MB	Click: Self +Res(Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Immobilize, Knockback) OR Mez Resist moved to toggles and +10% Absorb
Level 16	Dodge	Auto: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 20	Agile	Auto: Self +DEF(Ranged), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 28	Lucky	Auto: Self +DEF(AoE), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 35	Quickness	Auto: Self +Res(-Recharge, -SPD), +Recharge, +SP
Level 38	Elude	Self +DEF(Melee, Ranged, AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Recovery, +SPD, +Jump, +Special

Ninjitsu and Shield (@Lockpick) design:

Level	Power name	Function
Level 1	Focused Fighting	Toggle: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res(Confuse, DEF Debuff)
Level 2	Focused Senses	Toggle: Self +DEF(Ranged, AOE), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Perception
Level 4	Agile	Auto: Self +DEF(Ranged), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 10	Practiced Brawler	Click: Self +Res(Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Immobilize, Knockback), 10% Absorb
Level 16	Dodge	Auto: Self +DEF(Melee), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 20	Quickness	Auto: Self +Res(-Recharge, -SPD), +Recharge, +SPD
Level 28	Lucky	Auto: Self +DEF(AoE), +Res(All DMG but Psionics and Toxic (Scaling), DEF Debuff)
Level 35	Enduring	Auto: Self +Recovery, +DEF(Psionic), Res(DeBuff DEF), Res(DMG, Special)
Level 38	Elude	Self +DEF(Melee, Ranged, AoE), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Recovery, +SPD, +Jump, +Special

Frankly, I think that all of these suggestions are better than the current melee versions of Super Reflexes.

September 7, 2020

15 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Again, I see no need for enduring. Does Invul have some kind of +end power? If SR gets to combine passives and get a Sent based +recovery, shouldn't Invul? Shouldn't Shield? Like SR, it doesn't get end recovery until the T9. Of course, Shield's T9 isn't a steaming pile of uselessness like Elude and Unstoppable.

I get what you're going for. I also get Troo's distaste for altering the set too much.

It's actually easier for me to make the argument that Bio and Rad armors provide far too much in the "extra" department, as do ALL of the Sentinel armors, and to perhaps nerf them all, rather than continuing down the road of power creep and making already godlike sets even godlier.

Thank you for your perspective. 👍

September 7, 2020

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

I see no reason to combine the other powers thus freeing up that slot.

Would you rather that Super Reflexes keep the three passive powers and not get Enduring? Or would you suggest that two of the passive powers be merged (as they were in the Sentinel set) and that the newly-available slot be filled with Enduring?

Our goal is to add Enduring to the set without changing the defense values, defense debuff resistance values, or scaling resistance values values. That requires freeing up a slot. The Sentinel version solved this by merging two of the passive powers. Enduring takes defense sets, so it provides the same slotting options for set bonuses as the passive that was removed.

September 7, 2020

1 hour ago, Troo said:

as I said to the same topic in March:

..nope

I'll rephrase that March comment as:

Such changes aren't going to happen.

You might have a better chance at creating a new power set with the way you think it should be.

and, again from March

I am not saying the ideas are bad or good. It's just not Super Reflexes.

Trying to take unique sets and generic them to match other sets... well, I do take issue with trying to make different power sets homogeneous.

I also still feel this suggestion is a bit disingenuous.

Your claim: 'this isn't really a change' but presenting suggestions that move powers, delete powers, and add new powers.

I understand your point of view, and I acknowledge that your point of view is valid, but I disagree with it.

The Homecoming developers have already displayed a willingness to alter existing power sets to improve player experience. They have already rearranged powers in several sets. For example, they rearranged AOE attacks in many of the Tanker melee sets. The power "Enduring" that we are suggesting be added to the melee version of Super Reflexes already exists in the Sentinel version of Super Reflexes. The Sentinel version receives a larger absorb shield than the one that we are suggesting.

Again, I understand your point of view, but I respectfully disagree.

8 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I'm fine with the power order being tweaked. Scrappers absolutely get evasion far too late. I'm fine with melee SR getting the exact Sent treatment regarding PB and MB, where PB remains exactly as it is or you can choose the click +absorb and the mez protection gets moved to the toggles.

I'm not keen on any of the other proposed changes.

The only proposed change beyond what you mentioned is the addition of a new power in the tier 8 slot. However, if you have a better idea for what should be done with that slot then I would appreciate your feedback.

September 7, 2020

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I'll give you a 9/10 on the Passive Aggressive scale, its nearly as good as something my mother would say. But we should probably deduct overall points for the implied attack on my sexuality. Which doesn't really bother me, but its a rather passe line of attack these days.

I seriously don't understand how I've offended you, and I did not mean to assume your gender or sexuality. I think that it's best if I stop replying to your posts as we're clearly not on the same page, and at this point I'm confused. I apologize again.

September 7, 2020

7 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

But hey, if attacking me makes you feel better, Knock yourself out.

I sincerely apologize if my request came across as an attack. It was not my intention to limit your expression. In no way do I want to discourage you from pursuing your hobby, but this is not the right venue for role play. There is a subforum that is exclusively devoted to role playing, and it is my experience as a player on Everlasting that role players are very welcoming! "Haijinx" would be an adorable name for a catgirl/catboy/catperson. 🙂

14 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The point was people like to ask for all sorts of crazy crap. But crazy crap never gets implemented. Small incremental changes *sometimes* occur but people rarely suggest those, and they don't seem the ones making suggestions in this subforum.

Think about the various issues. At no point in the history of City of Heroes issues have such sweeping changes been made to a powerset as has been suggested in this thread. Not even Regen has had the kind of overhaul you are proposing. And Regen is so bad it gave us Willpower.

Energy Aura received a revamp in Issue 21 as a response to player forum feedback. Invulnerability received an update in issue 3 and a significant overhaul in issue 13.

Sign In

Profiles

Forums

Events

Store

Articles

Patch Notes

Posts posted by modest