Marbing

I intended the +special to include +heal, +def buff, +def debuff, +tohit buff, +tohit debuff, and +end mod (I could be missing one…) . And I know that +recharge doesn’t help FF as much, it does however help Sonic because of liquify. While +special would help FF and Heal it wouldn’t help Sonic as much (because it’s a resistance centric set). But also FF needs help as is in it’s current state it is underperforming in comparison to sets that can do the same things but better. IMO so FF may need to be addressed separately anyways, this same may go for Sonic as well to a lesser extent. And I agree that endurance reduction helps all sets, that’s why I included it in my original proposal, maybe it needs to be higher? I think that +recharge makes more sense than +dmg because it helps the Defender primary more than +damage does while also still giving them a DPS increase. IMO I have no problem with the +dmg staying if it’s going to cause a mass exodus of players. But, I will never agree that it is necessary. Like I said it may not be perfect but that was my logic behind it. And I don’t think your change was bad, the numbers may be a bit high, but I understand what you were trying to accomplish. Though I do like @arcane’s idea of completely abolishing the solo vs team dichotomy of the inherent in favor of something that is consistently beneficial at all times.

The only buffs widows need are: A) No redraw (FOR THE LOVE OF GOD) B) A better/more potent inherent.

Hence why me and others suggested a +special in combo with other things. +recharge directly effects DPS and in some cases more than +dmg does. Built in Endurance reduction would make them a more inherently efficient AT than most as well as helping with overall build flexibility. I am not saying it’s perfect but imo it certainly gives a lot to replace that +dmg.

You may have to explain what you mean, not following. If the crey pistol was used to close the gap for several powersets by canceling the animation root. Why would an across the board cancel make some powersets worse? I am not saying you are wrong just trying to follow the logic. EDIT: Nvm I think I get what you are trying to say. EDIT#2: What if the across the board animation root cancelling amount scaled with the powers animation? Meaning: power 1 has a 1 sec animation power 2 has a 3 sec animation power 1 would get a 10% reduction power 3 would get a 70% reduction because it’s animation is higher. (Just an example) You could possibly code the reduction to look at the current animation and adjust accordingly without the need to go case by case. This way higher animation root powers would get a much greater benefit than lower animation root powers. You could even make the benefit greater for Melee powers, to help close that gap between melee and ranged too. To clarify, when I say animation root reduction I mean the root that goes with it not the animation itself. I don’t mean speed up the animation.

Understood, but this is the same Dev group that had data and testing for the i13 PvP changes. So, yeah idc what they thought was the case because their data was often just the loudest voice in the room. But yes agree to disagree. I think the +recharge is a good compromise to replace the +dmg and makes more sense imo. Their primary is Support so their inherent should focus on things that make that better in some way.

Just a reminder, you do get the choice to play what you wish how you wish to play it. That doesn’t mean the AT you picked is always going to fit your play style. There are and were A LOT of people that loved Defenders before the +damage buff, keep that in mind. I know because I was one of them. Soloing has never been a strength for a Defender, that’s because they are incredibly useful on teams. There are always trade-offs. Do I agree the damage boost made them more interesting? Yes. Of course it did. It was a straight buff with no downside or trade off. But, Defenders didn’t NEED a damage buff. What they needed was a complete rework of Vigilance. People were even asking for that on live. Hence why I started this thread. Though I know there have been others in the past. Now, it’s okay you want to keep the +damage buff. That’s your opinion and as such you are entitled to it. I assume that’s because you think it fits the role you think defenders should have? If so, would you change anything about how vigilance works in it’s current state?

I think this is why End Discount and +Special are particularly good ideas IMO.

Good idea is good.

True, but Ranged already has inherent advantages and less risk associated with it as is.

Would it not be better to just make all (except AS) melee attacks not root in PvP? Instead of bringing back an exploit. I wouldn’t see an issue with removing roots on Melee attacks to allow them better mobility in an environment dominated by ranged toons. IMO EDIT: Nvm decoupling animation roots in PvP may not be possible without affecting PvE. Does anyone have anything hard to back that? I seem to remember this being a thing. EDIT#2: Then again I am not entirely convinced it would be a huge problem in PvE if Melee toons didn’t get animation rooted. But I also haven’t had my coffee yet.

I’ve had the same thought. I wonder how much the devs even consider the suggestions. You rarely see feedback about ideas, even ones that gain steam among the community. Not that I am complaining, I still get to play CoH again which is great! But, yeah your point is felt.

I like where your head is, thinking outside the box. Not sure this works entirely as is, though. But not saying it definitely doesn’t. Need to think on this one more.

I don’t think it’s hatred, at least not from me. It’s just an opinion that A) it isn’t necessary and B) it encroaches on another AT designed specifically around doing more damage at the cost of its ability to support. I think a better approach to vigilance should be to further that emphasis that Defenders are the best support AT. Do you have any ideas as to what you think Vigilance should look like?

True. I had considered exactly this when I made my proposal. Which replaced the +dmg with a +recharge. The intention was a bit of a compromise since +recharge affects DPS, the idea here though is that +recharge will also affect their primary in a more impactful way than +dmg will. IMO and since we are talking about a primary support toon I thought this made more sense. But, you are right. It may be an effort in futility with some who will still be upset regardless. Such is the internet.

Thanks! And I agree. There should be less muddiness. I was trying to keep my suggestion as something familiar while also giving it something that’s consistent. Perhaps not the best solution but IMO better than we have now. I am hoping we get more people in here, especially support centric ones that can weigh in.

Gotta say I like a lot of these ideas. Vigilance should be something that leans into a defender’s strength in some way. IMO A few of these ideas really hit that note.

Solid idea! Any proposal? EDIT: I had the same thought, which is why I left the Endurance Redux consistent between team and solo, I know that’s prob not what you were looking for but I do like the idea of something that remains constant. And true, endurance issues aren’t of much concern but having it built in I think opens other build options up a little. IMO, but I see your point.

Since Vigilance still seems to be a very hot topic on a lot of support AT enthusiasts minds. I have decided to create this thread so we can all brainstorm ideas for how to fix Vigilance (assumin’ it needs a fixin’)! I don’t want this to turn into a flame thread or a name calling thread. Just share your ideas and we can talk about them. To start things off let’s look at what Vigilance currently does: Solo: +30% Damage This scales down to 0% at 3 teammates. Team: Endurance Redux that scales up as your teams HP gets lower. My two cents to kick the ideas off (the numbers are preliminary): Solo: +20% Global Recharge, +10% Endurance Reduction The recharge scales down to 0% at 3 teammates. Team: The Endurance Reduction remains, +Special that scales up to +20% on a full team. I know already my idea may not be the best. And again the numbers are preliminary and can be adjusted for balance concerns. But, I just wanted to be the brave soul to kick things off and take the alpha strike of negative feedback. Let’s hear what y’all’s ideas are now! 😃 Bring on those thumbs! (Up or down)

Clearly.

I wasn’t comparing bottom end vs top end. Again, that’s you twisting my words. I used an example of something a controller could never achieve vs something ALL defenders are capable of. It isn’t an edge case, ALL defenders get nukes, they are crashless, and not very hard to get to 40s or below. In fact it’s so common that a lot of people build for it. If you max out a fire/kin controller with all the +recharge in the world guess what they will never have… The nuke of a kin/fire defender. (I am not saying the kin/fire defender beats the controller in this case just making a comparison to the powers available, i know how deadly Kin is on a fire controller). Sorry if that wasn’t clear. The fact that defenders have access to nukes and controllers don’t is just one of many examples I could give that separate the two. Yes controllers get pets but pets don’t have the damage output of a nuke. Especially for burst damage. A Defender isn’t just going to stand there like a sap for 40 seconds, they have other powers at their disposal: rains, cones, AOE, snipes, etc etc. They ALSO have access to the same pool powers so… the epics are slightly different, though. Again, no I’m not. Controllers and Defenders have access to the same pool powers. The Epics are slightly different. Mentioning they get access to a Ranged Damage set was, yet again, an example of an entire set of attacks that a Controller will never have. Not an edge case, and not saying only primary and secondary are used. I never said any of this. I don’t know where you came to the conclusion that I was putting limitations on Controllers. I am aware their variety of power choices. Just like a defender has. I’ve played tons of controllers. I have slow ones and fast ones. I know all the different play styles. I’ve herded with a controller, I’ve face tanked with a controller, I’ve gone proc monster on a controller, I’ve built controllers for pure DPS, I’ve built controllers for pure team support. Again, you’re not talking to a noob here. I get that the damage output depends on play style but it doesn’t negate the fact that Defenders have the advantage over Controllers in DPS in most cases. Yes it heavily depends on blah blah and your whataboutisms have been heard here, but they don’t change anything. You pointing out the few cases that a controller will out damage a defender doesn’t make a difference. Because I already said there are exceptions. You may see it differently, and that’s fine. Just to be clear we are talking about the same Paragon team that thought the i13 PvP changes were a great idea after testing them. So yeah, giant grain of salt on their opinions and testing. Because an AT is slower than another AT is not a reason to give it a damage boost when there are other ATs that exist to fit that role. Period. Defenders were fine. So, again, you wanted more damage solo you should have rolled a Corruptor. I look forward to reading your next wall of text. This is fun.

No. I didn’t. Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Not sure I understand what you’re trying to say here. Controllers struggle to do meaningful damage outside of a few exceptions and Defenders typically outpace them... I didn’t point to outside cases. Also, it’s not hard to get a good number of nukes down to around 30s on a Defender. Maybe closer to 40s on some nukes but, still. That’s big boom every spawn. If you wanted more damage solo, should have rolled a Corruptor. Defenders didn’t need a damage boost and I never said they were designed for team only. I said they were fine before the buff because they were, never had an issue soloing with one before the buff. I said Vigilance should be changed to something that leans into their strengths as the superior team buffer/debuffer. Not that they should be a team only AT. But that is their strength, so even in their current state they are better in a team than solo. I already said Vigilance needs a complete rework. What that rework should be isn’t something I have fully settled on but it certainly isn’t simply removing the damage boost. It’s not that I dislike it, it’s entirely unnecessary and wasn’t required to begin with. If you wanted to be a support toon that does more damage, you should have rolled a corruptor. Period. Easy. And I have rolled a FF/Energy defender, is it slower than my blasters? Sure is! Do I care? No. You wanna guess why? Because I am playing a defender. Guess what else is super slow, mind/poison on a controller. I’ve done that too, is it slower than my defenders? Sure is! Do I care? No. You wanna know why? Because I know the controller has other strengths. Still not a good argument to give defenders more damage. “Because they are slow” doesn’t work, something is going to always be the slowest DPS. But they have plenty of positives to make up for it. I agree with most of this. I also agree with this. I had a TA defender on live and he was always sad. Might as well have been named Eeyore. I get the points you are trying to make, but you aren’t talking to someone who has no experience with defenders. They were my main AT back on live along with Controllers and I still play them today, I’ve more recently started adding Corruptors to my mix. Hence why I currently have more lvl 50 Corruptors at this time than anything else. But I’ve played nearly every iteration of each since live and know their strengths and weaknesses very well. The fact remains Defenders never needed a damage buff. They were fine. Sure they cleared slow but so do Controllers, and they were still usually faster clearers than Controllers because they actually have a Ranged Damage set. It’s okay if you disagree. I respect your views on the matter, regardless.

No sure I follow.

I get what you are saying, but the game is already easy enough. Why make it easier? I think @arcane is just trying to point that out. Not that it would make a huge difference and break the game, but I don’t see this being implemented purely on the basis that it’s not really a problem that needs fixing. IMO.

Yes, but Controllers have very few attacks and thus struggle to put forth any meaningful offense outside of a few cases. Defenders have access to an entire Ranged DPS set complete with Superior/Extreme damage attacks and Nukes they can use roughly every 30 seconds to pair with their superior -res debuffs. A Defender is often going to outpace a Controller on pure DPS outside of a few exceptions, even without the +30% damage. The trade off is that Controllers can Control and Defenders can't (outside of a few exceptions). Yes, I know there are exceptions, let me be clear out of the gates as I am trying to avoid the inevitable whataboutisms that spawn from making such a comment. (Not that I am accusing you of that, but I know some people will latch on and then its just an endless chain of "what about this... what about this... what about this..." ugh.) EDIT: Also, the fact that some Defender builds can out damage some Corruptor builds is even more evidence that they don't need a +30% damage boost when solo. They do enough damage.

I could see an argument being made for -res/-def (because those both support offensive output) but the rest of the debuffs should stay the same as they are. This is one of my opinions that has changed over time. However, if we are to keep Defenders as the premium team support AT, then they need to be premium at that in all cases. It is their primary, after all. Not to thread hijack but Vigilance needs a complete rework to help enforce this. Ultimately, I think that may be the place that needs the biggest change and provides the greatest opportunity for truly setting Defenders and Corruptors apart. Change Vigilance to something that actually makes sense and helps enforce the idea they are the premium team support. Much like how Scourge helps enforce that Corruptors are intended to be the damage support class and premium finishers.