Feedback: Testing Melee Set Performance

[MunkiLord]

I have one in the early 40s with a bunch of IOs and it is fun and powerful. I don't know if the relative performance is similar on other ATs though.

[MunkiLord]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

I knew about EM, what is wrong with battle axe?

It's my understanding that it can be summed up as a lesser version of War Mace. It's likely a bit more complicated than that, but that is the general sense I get from the conversation around it.

[Hopeling]

1 hour ago, MunkiLord said:

What about a custom AV in AE? No attacks, doesn't run, no resists. I'm not sure how the regen and HP of an AV compares to a pylon though.

A custom punching bag might make a better version of a pylon, but that's still testing solo sustained single-target DPS with zero movement in a vacuum. I don't know what would constitute a more holistic measure of performance.

 

Something like "time to clear a Battle Maiden map" would be a kind-of-reasonable metric of overall (AoE+ST) damage under something resembling real-world conditions. There's movement, there's a mix of bosses and minions, you're facing groups but not ridiculous target saturation like an ambush farm, you have to hunt down runners. We could test that with a variety of powersets, with/without IOs, with/without Incarnates. But we'd have to nail down the parameters (are inspirations allowed? Can you go in with a full tray of reds? What about a full tray of Furious Rages?) And we're still testing solo performance in a vacuum, while part of Infinitum's objection is that the set interacts badly with kill-sniping from teammates. I don't even know what kind of metric to use for that.

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Since when is warmace amazing?  We avoided it back on live?  Did they do something to buff it?

Since Clobber became a Knockout Blow-level attack with a stun attached, instead of just a stun. It's been quite good since that happened. Proliferating it to Scrappers in i21 made it more popular too.

 

Broadsword, Katana, Battle Axe, and War Mace are all very similar structurally, but with tweaked values. War Mace and Katana do pretty well overall; Battle Axe and Broadsword are basically worse versions of those and probably should get buffed somewhat. Martial Arts, Ice Melee, and Kinetic Melee are also candidates for underperformance, I think.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

A custom punching bag might make a better version of a pylon, but that's still testing solo sustained single-target DPS with zero movement in a vacuum. I don't know what would constitute a more holistic measure of performance.

 

Something like "time to clear a Battle Maiden map" would be a kind-of-reasonable metric of overall (AoE+ST) damage under something resembling real-world conditions. There's movement, there's a mix of bosses and minions, you're facing groups but not ridiculous target saturation like an ambush farm, you have to hunt down runners. We could test that with a variety of powersets, with/without IOs, with/without Incarnates. But we'd have to nail down the parameters (are inspirations allowed? Can you go in with a full tray of reds? What about a full tray of Furious Rages?) And we're still testing solo performance in a vacuum, while part of Infinitum's objection is that the set interacts badly with kill-sniping from teammates. I don't even know what kind of metric to use for that.

Since Clobber became a Knockout Blow-level attack with a stun attached, instead of just a stun. It's been quite good since that happened. Proliferating it to Scrappers in i21 made it more popular too.

 

Broadsword, Katana, Battle Axe, and War Mace are all very similar structurally, but with tweaked values. War Mace and Katana do pretty well overall; Battle Axe and Broadsword are basically worse versions of those and probably should get buffed somewhat. Martial Arts, Ice Melee, and Kinetic Melee are also candidates for underperformance, I think.

Im definitely going to check Mace out.

 

At one point it was horrible though right?

 

MA feels pretty good to me, that's kinda surprising its an underperformer.

 

KM also feels decent and plays well but there is something about it I just can't make it work for me.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Infinitum

[Hopeling]

17 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

It's my understanding that it can be summed up as a lesser version of War Mace. It's likely a bit more complicated than that, but that is the general sense I get from the conversation around it.

Yep. Battle Axe is essentially a clone of War Mace, with the powers in a slightly different order. Besides slightly tweaked numbers on the cones which are basically a wash, the two main differences are:

• Lethal damage instead of Smashing damage
• Swoop instead of Clobber

And both of these things are drawbacks! Lethal is resisted more than Smashing, and Clobber is much better than Swoop.

10 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Im definitely going to check Mace out.

 

At one point it was horrible though right?

 

MA feels pretty good to me, that's kinda surprising its an underperformer.

 

KM also feels decent and plays well but there is something about it I just can't make it work for me.

Yeah, Mace was widely considered pretty bad before the Clobber change.

 

I know MA got some buffs late in the game's life. I haven't played it or heard a lot about it since then, so maybe it's OK now? Dunno.

 

I've only played one KM character, but I was kind of underwhelmed, and that seems to be a common feeling. I don't really know where it stands in objective terms though.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Hopeling

[Haijinx]

4 hours ago, Sniktch said:

On that particular subject, I have to point out:  Titan actually got buffed either just before or shortly after its release.  During its beta run, Build Momentum only had a 5-second uptime and did not overwrite current Momentum - it acted entirely like what you got off scoring a hit, and the damage/ToHit buff was also just as brief.  This got changed because people kvetched about it being 'different' than every other build-up.

 

I think this was a fairly bad mistake, and possibly a big component of why Titan is over-the-top right now.  It either permits 15-ish seconds of continuous sped-up attacks via slow-hit, pop Build as the standard falls off, keep murdering, or 10 seconds of lead-off time.  Both of these turbocharge the set - and while it's not gonna be common, if you CAN hit the Recharge cap, Build Momentum's recharge is 18 seconds.  Even if not, you're still looking at an uptime cycle of 10/35 via SOs, and the 35 is best thought of as 5 'attack cycles' consisting of 1 slow and 4 fast.  And the fast is REALLY fast - the posted numbers for Momentum attack times looks like Claws without Eviscerate.

 

Overall, the set needs most of its freebies taken away OR its very large baseline damage buffs to be scaled back universally OR its Momentum time messed with, whether via returning Build Momentum to 5 seconds or via Steampunkette's suggested tweak.  Note those are OR, not AND - any one of those could put it strong but not completely fucking broken.  All of them would be an EM-grade clusterbomb. 

This is extremely interesting.  Thank you.

 

Seems like testing it as beta had it, would be valuable.

[Infinitum]

13 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

Yep. Battle Axe is essentially a clone of War Mace, with the powers in a slightly different order. Besides slightly tweaked numbers on the cones which are basically a wash, the two main differences are:

• Lethal damage instead of Smashing damage
• Swoop instead of Clobber

And both of these things are drawbacks! Lethal is resisted more than Smashing, and Clobber is much better than Swoop.

Yeah, Mace was widely considered pretty bad before the Clobber change.

 

I know MA got some buffs late in the game's life. I haven't played it or heard a lot about it since then, so maybe it's OK now? Dunno.

 

I've only played one KM character, but I was kind of underwhelmed, and that seems to be a common feeling. I don't really know where it stands in objective terms though.

Thats a good way to describe KM a lot of movement an animation but underwhelming at best.

[Haijinx]

A custom punching bag that was consistent in the ranges we are trying to measure would be better than the pylon.

 

Especially if you aren't planning to nerf everything down to the 400 dps range or whatever.

 

If say TW is 700 dps and RM is 560 and WM is 500 ...

 

It would be nice to know that TW is actually 700, RM is actually 560 and WM is actually 500. 

 

Rather than .. well somewhere in there the pylon is wonky so we kinda maybe dont know, but its ISH

 

So you'd probably want a punching bag that was as linear and consistent as possible from 200 to 1000dps.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Haijinx

[Hopeling]

Sure, but doing five pylon tests and averaging them smooths out variance too.

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

Sure, but doing five pylon tests and averaging them smooths out variance too.

Maybe? 

 

If the time is so fast that the fundamental operation of things like the pylons actual regen tick events come into play ...

 

And are more affected the faster you go ...

 

Then your ruler is broken.  

 

---

Its the relativity problem.  Except we don't have a formula to correct for it.

 

 

[Haijinx]

Without accurate metrics, you'll also have a hard time knowing if you nerfed the set enough.

 

Of course you'd need to decide where you want the set to be also. 

 

Right now it sounds like the claim is it is #1 for both ST and AOE damage.  At least on scrappers.  

 

Subjectively my personal impression is my stalker was a lot better for ST up to this point at least during team play.  

 

But im willing to concede that may be just my preference for fast moving sets.   

[Hopeling]

16 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

If the time is so fast that the fundamental operation of things like the pylons actual regen tick events come into play ...

 

And are more affected the faster you go ...

 

Then your ruler is broken.

Regen ticks don't cause 200-DPS swings. Regen occurs in 5% ticks; one regen tick for a Pylon is about 1500 HP. At the levels of DPS we're talking about, it takes 2-3 extra seconds to deal 1500 damage. A 60-second run is 766 DPS, a 63-second run is 736. Not a huge confounder.

 

There's always going to be randomness; no test can remove it. Crits are random, procs are random, misses are random. All you can do is smooth it out by using a larger sample size. Longer fights do that, but so does averaging multiple fights together.

 

The only issue with averaging multiple fights instead of one long fight is that it can overcount things like Hybrid whose cycle time is longer than a pylon test. But Hybrid is basically the significant factor that has a cycle time of multiple minutes like that.

[Haijinx]

The timing of the tick events has been brought up as well.

 

I don't mean to suggest this accounts for 200 dps swings.  

 

I more mean to suggest that all the 500 dps might be slightly high.

 

All the 700 dps might be more slightly high.

 

The ideal ruler would have no regen at all.  Not sure if this is possible.

[Haijinx]

Im actually kind of intrigued by the fact the set was designed with a much weaker build momemtum power in mind.

 

That might also help explain why its base damage numbers are what they are.

[Steampunkette]

I kind of like the idea of an "Asteroid Test"

 

Just create a mess of minions, lieutenants, and bosses with minimal attack options (Experience and Rewards aren't the point) and no defensive options, equip 5-6 different powerset combos with Titan Weapons being one of them and all of them using /Invuln (No damage or effectiveness buffs to the primary from the secondary) and make sure they're all using nothing more than SOs of even level.

 

Then run the map 5 times on each, average the runs, and see where the standings are?

[Haijinx]

Might consider WP instead with as hard as TW is on END (and some other sets)

 

But that might be a useful test I think.  

 

Could repeat it with IO builds that were very similar to each other.

[Galaxy Brain]

KM has a fun niche when paired with /Shield to have constant big damage boosts, and MA has a ton of side effects now that can do weird stuff...

 

Anywho, I have made a spreadsheet (*gasp*) to try and map the DPS vs Endurance Use of TW vs other melee sets. The rules were as follows:

• Using a Scrapper as a base for numbers to avoid stuff like Fury / Bruising (also ignoring Crits for right now)
• Primary Attacks Only, all attacks are slotted for 3 dam (~95%), and 1 Acc/End/Rech (~33%)
• Brawl is allowed during gaps (1 acc slotted)
• Stamina is 3 slotted, giving 2.48 end/sec recovery 
• No outside boosts from armor sets, pool powers, ally buffs, etc for now
• The attack chain used will attempt to squeeze in as much damage until End runs out. Once there is a gap where you need to wait for End to refill, it stops.
• AoE's are used, but this is assuming some sort of single training dummy for now

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1W6KAQFJwSP44hd1MHJiPPYCw4yFetHvTomfbMQR3z2M/edit?usp=sharing

 

I only had time to play with TW and WM, but here are some spark notes:

 

TW DPS = 190.56 over 31.63 sec 

WM DPS = 178.57 over 57.30 sec

 

WM was around 58% more endurance efficient than TW when averaged between TOTAL END used over time and NET END used over time (counting recovery)

 

WM's Whirling Mace was not used as it is booty when compared to it's ST and Cones, especially compared to TW's AoEs

 

TW has a ton of other perks compared to WM's Stuns and Knock downs, including bonus range on the AoEs to make them friendlier in big groups.

 

TW had 80% momentum uptime, and discounting the initial swing to start the chain there were 2 times where momentum had to be gained via a tohit roll.

 

Overall these two top tier sets are very close, but the achilles heel for TW seems to be Endurance usage as it ran out of gas in half the time of WM, but did more DPS and offered -Res. If there is any outside +End sources from secondaries, IO's, or support, I feel that TW would snowball much harder than WM in the same scenario...

[Indystruck]

8 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah, not to me.

 

Well, your ideas seem to leave a lot to be desired, so, it's best I think we leave the "Balancing Incarnate content around Incarnate powers" argument for another thread.

[Haijinx]

I will say I've shifted my feelings some on this through the course of this thread.  It does seem that TW is overperforming.  

 

I am not sure though how you would address it. 

 

I'm most curious about trying Change Momentum how it was when the set was first designed and Beta tested.  To spring a sudden, significant power uptick right before releasing the set seems like a poorly thought out decision.  

 

Is there more information available on this move?

 

[Heraclea]

If anything suggested by this ever makes it into the live game, for the love of God let us share incarnate salvage, currencies, and crafted abilities, at least on an account wide basis.  Removing all the IOs from a retired character to redistribute to others is one thing. At least this game is not like others, where all the gear of an unplayable character turns into vendor trash.  But all the grinding done for their incarnate stuff is simply lost time and effort.  Please don't let all that go to waste. 

Edited September 14, 2019 by Heraclea

[Infinitum]

4 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I will say I've shifted my feelings some on this through the course of this thread.  It does seem that TW is overperforming.  

 

I am not sure though how you would address it. 

 

I'm most curious about trying Change Momentum how it was when the set was first designed and Beta tested.  To spring a sudden, significant power uptick right before releasing the set seems like a poorly thought out decision.  

 

Is there more information available on this move?

 

Yeah, I'm still not convinced, I can see how on Scrappers under some circumstances it may appear OP, but if you nerf the set as a whole it may not affect AOE performance because that does feel OP single target will suffer especially on builds like mine, ie it will still obliterate the minions but will take even longer on bosses.

 

I cant be the only one that would run into this either.

 

I think the more fair course would be to buff the poorly performing sets.  Then see how that impacts the game.  Revisit TW at that point.

[Galaxy Brain]

Infinitum, your build isnt an issue, how you used it was.

[Infinitum]

43 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Infinitum, your build isnt an issue, how you used it was.

Well my build still isnt an issue as far as I'm concerned.  But a lot of people on here said it was.

 

1 I dont play it very often

2 It does exactly what i built it to do.

 

I'm mainly anti nerf, and I still havent seen anything in here earth shatteringly bad to nerf the set.

 

Nothing like what controllers can do for instance, nothing as bad as EM is broken also.  There's a lot of other things that could break the game before this will.

 

There was a problem back on live with people not playing melee as much as controller buff/debuff simply because melee couldn't match the performance of the latter.

 

This just doesnt scream doom to me for the game because a set like TW that has a lot of hard to use built in features overperforms under a few extreme fringe build designs that cost a lot and takes time to get.

 

I see what you are saying on Scrappers, and I see what you are saying on bio armor.  Those do appear OP when paired with TW but thats hardly an indictment on the set. Becauwe everything else tells me it's only slightly better and that's if you are an experienced TW player - not me obviously.

 

And the biggest issue i have with it is, my psi and rad melee toons exploits every feature those sets offer and those feel OP for sure, way more OP than TW does in fact - all have the exact same defense set, slots, IOs and all.  But not everyone can build or will build them that way.  I min maxed them in every way to maximize damage, and defensive numbers.  I can't help but wonder where will the busy body work end? 

 

Will it be those next for you guys cause people will shelve their TW sets then and look for other FotM? 

 

I'm not a OP offender on TW so any nerf will nerf mine harder than the builds that are OP, and im sure there are others that will be in the same boat.

 

So again I will concede that when paired with scrapper features, and bio armor it appears OP, but across the board not enough to be arguing for 4 days on it. 

 

I would also look at the potential to buff the sets that need help, because even if you did nerf TW that's still not going to fix those. I would look at that first them re evaluate performances and who chooses what later to see how it all shakes out.

 

It's hard to say what is right or wrong, but from a business perspective there will be a lot more negative press with a nerf when there isn't a concrete or immediate need for one, when the time could be spent to fix what is underperforming then recheck later.  That would go a long way to appeasing everyone, not because it's easy but sometimes the harder path is the correct one.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Infinitum

[Galaxy Brain]

If other sets are buffed, TW would still be above them is the whole point. Buffing other sets to match TW would make them bonkers. Ideally this would be like a ~15% downward tun on TW's high end performance, and then a 30% boost to multiple other sets.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Steampunkette]

6 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

If other sets are buffed, TW would still be above them is the whole point. Buffing other sets to match TW would make them bonkers

He knows that. He just doesn't -care-.

 

His position is that if Controllers can be broken as hell using specific sets and shitloads of IOs then Melee Sets should be broken out of the box. The difficulty of the game is trivial, anyway, why bother trying?

 

To which I 'Meh' quite loudly. Nerf TW lightly and progressively 'til it behaves. That's my stance.