Focused Feedback: Player vs. Player

[Dan Petro]

2 hours ago, Epsilon Assassin said:

Yeah, strangler is one of two reasons to roll it, but it's far from being on par with Martial providing CC immunity windows, TP with half the animation of Phase, perma 40% damage bonus and an absorb. The general problem with strangler as an "Attack chain" is that PvP doesnt revolve around attack chains. EM has range advantage which is intrinsically a huge deal, particularly when most relevant PvP sets end without a snipe. TA has -jump, which is one of the most overpowered concepts ever given to blasters, in addition to competitive damage, recharge, mez resist and gymnastics.

 

PvP is usually your best timed 3 attacks (Char, snipe lancer for instance). Maybe 4 (Will Dom, Lance, TK, SSJ). After that the target phases, is dead or out of range. Strangler makes a niche fourth attack for some sets (Such as Psy), and as a timing attack in Ice as a third. 

 

So, while Strangler does retain itself as a marked perk of the set, it does not give plant a "Niche" alone. With toxins being weakened to make little to no difference, it narrows that niche down to non-existence. It would be comparable to say that Devices is top tier because Gun Drone procs Confuse Interface regardless of Mez Suppression. I mean sure, but how -much- does that really matter? Is it really enough to create a -competitive- niche? I would say no. 

 

Plant -is- currently an outlier. But so is TA. So is Martial. So is EM. Those outlying facets of the set are what makes them strong, and gives them reason to be run. Currently on test the only reason to run Plant is an almost meaningless 1-200 damage burst advantage (It is an advantage but it doesnt reach any meaningful benchmarks. You'll still need another cycle to kill someone, in which case its identical to the other secondaries) in 1 in 5-8 spikes, a good attack to add in every other spike if you somehow have time for a fifth attack and an absorb that's also present in Martial. 

 

Objectively, Plant is already, in general, weaker then Martial and TA. I would consider it to be better, in general, then EM. However it's worth mentioning in the same breath. With this change, it will no longer be true. While the debate on whether or not it's healthy to have a blaster secondary that can 100-0 another blaster with absorb, or a sent, is healthy to have is an accurate point to make, so is the fact that this change does further narrow the number of competitive secondaries in an already fairly narrow field. 

 

 

Stuff like this confuses the heck out of me.  PvP doesn't revolve around attack chains? Since when? Where? What?

 

I guess in solo zone PvP or 1 v 1's when you just try to throw damage at a target.  But anything team based in arena or zone PvP completely revolves around an attack chain where you lock, spike with a specific chain, then reset said chain. 

 

Like it or not, plant brings potential viability to sets who lack a good second or third ranged attack, specifically one with hitscan style damage (where as char is very slow projectile based damage.) It may not fit your individual needs, but for PvP as a whole it has a place as a top tier set for different kinds of offenses people might like to run.  

 

 

[Dan Petro]

42 minutes ago, Alouu said:

Attack Name	Old Toxins	New Toxins	Old Doublehit	New Doublehit
Bitter Freeze Ray	95.58	94.43	73.62	72.74
Bitter Ice Blast	78.95	55.93	60.81	43.08
Freeze Ray	67.87	51.50	52.28	39.67
Ice Blast	56.33	64.86	43.48	49.96
Ice Bolt	33.95	43.26	26.16	33.32
Strangler	99.14	85.47	76.37	65.83

 

The target had 37.7% res to all on live, vs 38.24% on test, I dont have the most precise methodolgy in the world, generally I just hope results drown out the margin of error.

 

On live, I have also made a comparison between Toxins and Build Up using the Chain BFR > BIB > Freeze Ray > Strangler the results of which look like this:

 

Toxins Damage Total:    1233.72
Build Up Damage Total: 1082.60

 

Toxins + Aim + Gaussians Proc, Damage Total:    1446.52

Build Up + Aim + Gaussians Proc, Damage Total: 1253.06
 

The damage totals only take into account the damage from the attacks and the bonus damage from toxins, so excludes things like damage procs.

 

Looking at the toxins differences above and applying them to the results below, it would appear that the edge toxins had over BU has been cut by about 50 damage (for this chain at least). Not the biggest of deals although other sets were already looking enticing over it beforehand.

This is the good stuff right here.  Thanks for posting!  I'm kind of surprised powers like BFR are actually doing less damage with the changes.  Maybe @Powerhousecan hook us up with the formula they are using here to get these values.  

[MJB]

2 hours ago, Dan Petro said:

This is the good stuff right here.  Thanks for posting!  I'm kind of surprised powers like BFR are actually doing less damage with the changes.  Maybe @Powerhousecan hook us up with the formula they are using here to get these values.  

unless my maths is off, they are actually doing pretty much exactly the same damage before and after for BFR (both within a rounding error of 153 if you calculate before resistances)

 

what is more interesting to me is how come ice bolt and ice blast are doing so much more damage in the new calc than the old? while bib and fr and doing far less. im guessing its a flat damage bonus based on toxins animation time and not based on the power benefiting from the buff? but im pulling that out of thin air tbh.

 

im at work atm so cant easily get the base damage numbers for each power to make a more educated guess

Edited September 11, 2019 by MJB

[Captain Powerhouse]

PvP Damage formula:

((CastTime+InterruptTime)*0.7+Recharge*0.04+0.4)/AreaFactor

AreaFactor:

 

Spheres: (1+(Radius*0.15))

Cones: ((1+(Radius*0.15))-(((Radius/6)*0.011)/5)*(360-Arc))

[barrier]

Hey so like... Hybrid Melee is still granting mez protection in PVP right? Should this be fixed?

[Captain Powerhouse]

13 minutes ago, barrier said:

Hey so like... Hybrid Melee is still granting mez protection in PVP right? Should this be fixed?

hmm yes, should give resistance. Will add to my notes.

[Mallex]

My Dark/Plant tests from last night on a 0% resistance Mastermind

 

Attack	Old Toxins	New Toxins
Dark Blast	56 dmg	70 dmg (+14)
Moonbeam	121 dmg	100 dmg (-21)
Gloom	91 dmg	105 dmg (+24)
Abyssal Gaze	198 dmg	131 dmg (-67)
Life Drain	91 dmg	115 dmg (+24)
Strangler	162 dmg	138 dmg (-24)
Blackstar (lol)	41 dmg	180 dmg (+139)

 

For Dark Blast, the smaller/quicker attacks got boosted while the bigger/slower attacks got reduced.

 

This will reduce burst damage, but might actually up extended DPS damage due to the damage being transferred to lower animation attacks.

 

I'd like to see a Fire/Plant blaster try spamming Flares in between attacks with Toxins on. It should do more DPS than the older Fire/Plant blasters.

[vegetableknife]

i'm very excited to see people throwing more tiny shards of ice and cute mind darts after this update

[Banana Man]

Based on my limited and accidental testing, fiery embrace on scrappers, maybe tanks and brutes too does -nothing- in pvp currently

 

Also, I'd encourage people to do some KBs on justin to see how this stuff is shaking out.

[Dan Petro]

1 hour ago, Banana Man said:

Based on my limited and accidental testing, fiery embrace on scrappers, maybe tanks and brutes too does -nothing- in pvp currently

 

Also, I'd encourage people to do some KBs on justin to see how this stuff is shaking out.

I think this was just a bug on the private server for some reason over here last time I tested it for scrappers and brutes it was providing +damage.  

[Dan Petro]

3 hours ago, Mallex said:

 

 

I'd like to see a Fire/Plant blaster try spamming Flares in between attacks with Toxins on. It should do more DPS than the older Fire/Plant blasters.

As soon as they transfer characters over, I have a Fire/Plant and I'll post the numbers up. 

[Banana Man]

I'm being told that due to the nature of these changes it's a fresh wipe with no copies. I'm also being told that you can craft without salvage now on test. I'm sort of split on doing this next event on test or live. I'd like to do it on test, but I realize higher prize pools may not be enough to motivate people to spend an hour or so just for this. Maybe I'll do a poll...

[Mallex]

The Freebie menu on test makes IOing super fast. I can go from level 1 to fully IOed in just 10 minutes if I have a build I'm following.

 

[macskull]

7 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

PvP Damage formula:

((CastTime+InterruptTime)*0.7+Recharge*0.04+0.4)/AreaFactor

AreaFactor:

 

Spheres: (1+(Radius*0.15))

Cones: ((1+(Radius*0.15))-(((Radius/6)*0.011)/5)*(360-Arc))

Has there been any consideration given to removing the area factor from the PvP damage formula entirely? IMO they should be treated as single-target attacks on the basis that they're not being used against multiple targets anyways.

 

Also, is changing regen back to HoT for PvP (for those few powers that do this) still a thing that's being looked into?

[barrier]

2 hours ago, macskull said:

Has there been any consideration given to removing the area factor from the PvP damage formula entirely? IMO they should be treated as single-target attacks on the basis that they're not being used against multiple targets anyways.

 

Also, is changing regen back to HoT for PvP (for those few powers that do this) still a thing that's being looked into?

These would both be worthwhile changes.

 

In fact, I have a specific idea re: HoT's: Powerhouse should bring HoT's to Time Manipulation in PVP. The set is 100% under-represented and pretty much unusable in pvp. It's the perfect guinea pig before changes are made to Water Blast and Pain Dom.

Edited September 11, 2019 by barrier

[Epsilon Assassin]

17 hours ago, Dan Petro said:

 

Stuff like this confuses the heck out of me.  PvP doesn't revolve around attack chains? Since when? Where? What?

Since literally forever. No one is going to let you sit there and beat on them like a target dummy. Just because Strangler is a good 5th+ attack doesn't hold a lot of weight when most pvp encounters are over before the third attack gets off, and the CDs for the chain are up on the next call.

 

Sure. My attack chain is something like Char, Snipe, Lancer, Disint, Single Shot repeat, but I never get past the third move in actual pvp unless I'm attacking a tank for some reason, or someone like Xtreme.

0

17 hours ago, Dan Petro said:

 

 

I guess in solo zone PvP or 1 v 1's when you just try to throw damage at a target.  But anything team based in arena or zone PvP completely revolves around an attack chain where you lock, spike with a specific chain, then reset said chain. 

 

Which is what I was talking about. It's also something you don't tend to find Strangler in most of the time. Most of the time it's Will Dom, Lance, TK/SSJ, Char/Disint, Snipe, Lancer. Sure, Strangler fits in over TK, but it doesn't actually do significantly more damage (Like 80 more damage during a spike, with another 100 over the next 4 seconds), and simply is not worth giving up your entire secondary for. 

 

Take EM vs Plant.

EM: 60% Range. Build up every 5-8 spikes. Power Boost (If Relevant). Energize

Plant: 150-200 damage every 5-8 spikes (Toxins), 80 Damage in half of spikes(Strangler), Absorb.
Martial: CC Break, Psuedo-Phase/Escape, 40% Perma Damage Bonus, 12% Tohit Perma. 4-500 point heal, Absorb

TA: Web Arrow. Glue Arrow. Mez Resist. Gymnastics. Build up every 5-8 spikes. 

 

17 hours ago, Dan Petro said:

 

Like it or not, plant brings potential viability to sets who lack a good second or third ranged attack, specifically one with hitscan style damage (where as char is very slow projectile based damage.) It may not fit your individual needs, but for PvP as a whole it has a place as a top tier set for different kinds of offenses people might like to run.  

 

 

I never denied that it did, I simply pointed out that Strangler alone does not create a competitive niche for a set that's getting nerfed that is already fairly weak among competitive secondaries. Strangler provides nothing that SSJ doesn't offer, and provides no utility. Now its damage is being cut by roughly half with nothing being given in compensation. It will not retain a top tier spot when it's "Top tier" position is already largely in debate before being nerfed. 

 

The entire secondary revolves around burst damage. This nerf to its burst damage narrows the margin to a point where there is no point in picking it over another secondary. Plant's entire intended purpose is for Deleting people. This change nerfs that niche into non-existence because the ttk in most pvp as the other secondaries, thus has no reason to be run over other secondaries. 

 

Martial, Plant, EM and TA can all 1 combo 1606 toons.

Only Plant can, sometimes, 1 combo 1850+110 Toons.

 

With test changes this is no longer true. Meaning the TTK on Martial, Plant, EM and TA are roughly the same in most pvp. This singular example is the only strength plant has compared to the rest of the sets. It's not the only advantage, as pointed out Strangler *is* an advantage, but it's not a niche. It's the same reason, as I stated before, we don't mention devices as a strong secondary even though it's undoubtedly the best dueling secondary. The niche is too narrow to be useful in pvp as a whole. My only purpose in this is to point out that this change, removes Plant as a competitive secondary.

 

To steal your words; Like it or not, that's what this change does. I simply want the developers to be entirely cognizant of the ramifications of their changes from one of the more prolific PvPers, and probably, /Plant blasters. That's all.

 

Enjoy your day

Edited September 12, 2019 by Epsilon Assassin

[Dan Petro]

Dude, please.  I straight up told you how PvP and attack chains go hand in hand. Refuting this makes me either think you are trolling, trying to bait arguments over semantics, or have no idea what is going on.  

18 hours ago, Dan Petro said:

 

  But anything team based in arena or zone PvP completely revolves around an attack chain where you lock, spike with a specific chain, then reset said chain. 

 

 

Saying things like : "Plant's entire intended purpose is for Deleting people" Makes it seem pretty obvious you aren't approaching things from a balance perspective, because nowhere has this ever been revealed to be an intended purpose of the set. 

 

I'll give you a personal guess though, toxins was probably intended to create a build up clone with flavor beyond just a flat damage increase.  It had the + of giving you a build up style power that has a tangible benefit when you reached your damage cap without it, it had the - of not actually helping you get there but still offered competitive levels of additional damage even without +damage buffs.

 

If the amount of + damage it added in PvP was far enough away from standard build up powers, it would be an outlier from a balance perspective and need to be brought in line.  Luckily, the set still has tools that are useful to PvP'ers.  In arena play specifically now that nature gathers are a thing and you can approach very high damage buff values, toxins becomes a stronger pick because of the above thing I mentioned.  

 

 

 

 

[Dan Petro]

Made it through the pool powers, much shorter list this time.  All Mez duration's seem accurate.

 

Blaster Epic / Patron Pools - All listed duration's are correct at 2.00 seconds.

 

Soul Mastery - Oppressive gloom does not have a listed duration however.

 

Defender Epic/Patron Pools

 

Dark Mastery - Oppressive gloom does not have a listed duration.

 

Psychic Mastery - World of confusion does not have a listed duration.

 

All other powers have correct mez durations.

 

Pets from defender epics all have 1.00 second mez duration's on them.  I'm assuming this is the correct value for pets, as I honestly don't know for sure. 

 

Corruptor Epic/Patron pools

 

Dark - Oppressive Gloom - Does not have a duration listed.

 

Psy - World of Confusion - Does not have a duration listed.

 

All other Corruptor powers (including pets) have the proper 2.00 or 1.00 second duration. 

Controller Epic/Patron Pools

 

Fire Mastery - Rise of the Phoenix - 2.00 second stun duration, should be 4.00 seconds

 

Psy Mastery - World of Confusion - No listed duration under the mez effect

 

All other duration's are at 4.00 seconds, all pets at 1.00 seconds. 

 

Dominator Epic/Patron Pools

Fire Mastery - Rise of the Phoenix - 2.00 second stun duration, should be 4.00 seconds
 

Psy Mastery - World of confusion - No listed mez duration

 

Leviathan Mastery Water Spout - No listed mez duration on the 4% chance for stun.

 

All other duration's are at 4.00 seconds, all pets at 1.00 seconds.

 

Sentinel Epic / Patron Pools

 

Psionic Mastery - Dominate - No listed mez duration

 

Also, Dominates damage is now 160.33 damage which seems to high for its 1.10 activation time.  And  a few of the AoE powers (Frozen aura, The Lotus Drops, Psychic Shockwave) seem to be doing much higher than expected AoE damage in PvP (136 / 211 / 184 respectively)

Edited September 12, 2019 by Dan Petro

[M3z]

If that's psychic shockwave from dominators, it should stay that way because that set is ASS.

[Dan Petro]

46 minutes ago, M3z said:

If that's psychic shockwave from dominators, it should stay that way because that set is ASS.

Sentinel epic psychic shockwave on that one,  Dominator  is doing 120 damage.  

[Captain Powerhouse]

A note about the Mez Toggles: it seems that the game power info screens will not show a duration on toggles. They all seem to be correct on the data side.

[Dan Petro]

40 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

A note about the Mez Toggles: it seems that the game power info screens will not show a duration on toggles. They all seem to be correct on the data side.

I thought that might be the case, good to know going forward.  

[barrier]

A couple more flag changes that may have been missed:

 

Mastermind Storm -range is PVE only flagged. That's an oversight.

 

Gale on controllers has double the intended mag because of mistags on PVE and PVP flags.

 

O2 Boost is providing stun protection rather than resistance.

 

Just didn't see any of these in the patch notes.

 

(And yeah, as the proud owner of a fully spec'd elec/storm controller, I am asking for a nerf to it's 50+ mag kb).

Edited September 13, 2019 by barrier

[MJB]

On 9/11/2019 at 10:16 PM, macskull said:

Has there been any consideration given to removing the area factor from the PvP damage formula entirely? IMO they should be treated as single-target attacks on the basis that they're not being used against multiple targets anyways.

yes please give me back 1 shot inferno's 🙂 

[Captain Powerhouse]

8 hours ago, barrier said:

A couple more flag changes that may have been missed:

 

Mastermind Storm -range is PVE only flagged. That's an oversight.

 

Gale on controllers has double the intended mag because of mistags on PVE and PVP flags.

 

O2 Boost is providing stun protection rather than resistance.

 

Just didn't see any of these in the patch notes.

 

(And yeah, as the proud owner of a fully spec'd elec/storm controller, I am asking for a nerf to it's 50+ mag kb).

O2boost should had been mentioned, it seems changed on my side.

-Range in Hurricane seems to be working on PvP, but it's flagged as ignoring Tanker/Brute/Scrapper/Stalkers and that might mess with Real Numbers. I think thats an artifact from before all melee powers were made to ignore -range so I'll remove that flag.