SS/INV tank or scrapper?

[Captain Fabulous]

Trying to decide which way to go. Does the extra damage as a scrapper make up for the much lower resistance cap? Or am I better off as a tank? Originally this character was a tank and I was ok with that, but since we all need to start over again I'm rethinking things.

 

I considered a brute, but the default INV colors are dark, and it's almost impossible to match the default bright colors with custom colors. Or maybe I should just suck it up and get as close as possible.

 

Ugh, decisions decisions, decisions...

[Gigajoule]

It depends on what you are wanting to do with the character.

 

Tanking for a group will be much more difficult with a Scrapper, comparatively speaking. Scrappers can tank, to be sure, but it's harder. Tankers are the best tanks (hence the name). Not necessarily because of the Resistance cap either-- Tankers of all kinds have an inherent edge when it comes to controlling aggro, and controlling aggro is the most important thing when it comes to tanking.

 

On the other hand, soloing is a lot harder for a Tanker, comparatively speaking. Tankers can solo, but it is very slow and inefficient (depending on powerset). Scrappers are some of the best soloers (soloists?).

 

Brutes are quite solid at both styles of play.

[Generator]

To further expand on a point troy made, SS is all single-target until you get Foot Stomp.  Does getting it at 32 vs 38 make a difference to you?  If so, then maybe going Scrapper is the way to go.

[marcussmythe]

A long discussion below the divider, TLDR at the top:

 

A tank is tougher than a scrapper is scrappy, but by endgame the toughness advantage mostly just doesn't matter - a tank is more tough than it should ever need to be, and the scrapper will always do more damage.  IOs make this worse. 

 

Tanks fill their role much better in teams, due to more aggro in their auras, better taunt, and a deeper well of HP and thereby resistance to mistake.  Any content that either could do solo the scrapper will probably do better, because of greater damage and sufficient toughness, but if you want to tank for a team, the tanker is always better.

 

The third choice, Brute, is an odd man out, splitting the difference between the two in many ways.  Its capable of Tanker toughness with sufficient IO investment (though this investment is much higher than required of a tank) ... but will never threaten the scrapper's damage potential.  In fact, in generic situations (medium rage bar, generic IOs, tanker res debuff) its damage is not terribly better than a tanks.  A Brute is best viewed mechanically as a tank that sacrifices defense for increased offense (especially in the early-mid levels), though it plays more as a 'heavy scrapper' that can stand in for a tank.

 

The choice is as always up to you.  I will note that Tankers are by far the slowest out of the starting gate, but for my own part, I have the most fun with them, either soloing at higher difficulties or with comfortable inevitability, by tanking the toughest opponents in the game and mocking them soundly while doing so, or by pushing the build envelope in odd places, safe in the fact that I have 'build space' to pursue recharge or regen or what-I-will, as it takes a much lower investment for a tank to reach hit point cap, defense cap, etc.  I'll also note that a heavy investment in +recharge can also pay for some impressive returns in total damage output - because you can focus your attack chain on fast-animating, high damage per frame powers (Energy Transfer most notably, even with the animation change)

 

Your mileage will vary.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If your just looking at 'making up for', no, the Scrapper does not do as much extra damage as the Tanker is extra tough.

 

First, Hit Points:

 

Scrapper Base:  1338

Scrapper Cap:  2409

 

Tanker Base:  1874

Tanker Cap:  3212

 

Brute Base:  1500

Brute Cap:  3212

 

At Base, the tanker has 140% of the Scrappers Hit Points, and 125% of the Brutes

At Cap, the tanker has 133% of the Scrappers Hit Points, and matches the Brute

 

 

Next, Damage:

Scrapper Damage Mod:  1.125, 500% Buff Cap, Crits  (Damage~7.425, maximum)

Tanker Damage Mod:  .8, 400% Buff Cap, Innate RES Debuff  (Damage=4.4 maximum)

Brute Damage Mod: .75, 775% Buff Cap, Fury (Damage=6.56 Maximum)

 

The Scrapper will do (formally) 165% of the Tankers Damage.  The scrapper has a larger damage bonus than the tanker has hit point bonus.

 

BUT:

 

A Tanks Primary gives larger buffs than a Scrappers Secondary.  Resist Energies gives more resistance to a tank than a scrapper.  Invincibility gives more defense to a tank than a scrapper.  In general, a Scrapper's Secondary is about 75% the value of the same power from a tankers primary.

 

So the tank has (at cap) 133% of the scrappers hit points, applied to 133% of the scrappers defenses.  So it would be ~77% harder to kill, and that is before you take into account the effect of increasing returns on +DEF and +RES... each point of DEF or RES is worth more than the one before, until you get to the cap.

 

And thats before the RES Cap (pretty much only an issue of S/L, or during unstoppable) comes into play - which makes the tank even -tougher-, relatively.

 

So, the Tanker is tougher (relative to the scrapper) than the Scrapper is powerful (relative to the tanker)

 

MORE BUT:

 

Long list of caveats:

1.)  Survivability only matters until the mobs cant kill you (or cant kill you before they die, or cant kill you often enough to matter).  For the vast majority of the game content, a 'mature but not maximized' Tank (Lvl 50, Generic IOs) is far, far tougher than there is any need to be.  So hes wasting value compared to the scrapper.

 

2.)  Offense is a kind of defense:  While maturing, the scrapper may survive situations that would kill the tank, ESPECIALLY early on - when mitigation isnt mitigating much, killing the foe first is for the win.

 

3.)  IOs and Incarnates Change Everything:  IOs are really good at giving defense, less good at giving resistance, really good at giving recharge, and not good at all at giving damage.  This suggests that a scrapper can more easily use IOs to reach 'basically unkillable' than a tank can use IOs to reach scrapper damage.  (Frankly, IOs can make a scrapper, if not as tough as a mature but not maximized tank, tough enough that noone but you will know the difference.  The reverse is not the case).  Incarnate powers I have not engaged in as fully, but seem similar. 

 

4.)  Those same IOs CAN make the tank so tough that the toughest scrapper is left in the dust, so tough that it boggles the minds of man.  Sea of deep purple +4 bosses?  Multiple Giant Monsters?  You can build a tank that the game basically cant kill, barring real insanity like untyped damage.  But see #1, above - unless your running the nastiest stuff in the game AND NOONE IS BUFFING YOU, you dont need it.

 

5.)  Actual Factual Tanking - Tanks hold aggro better, period and forever.  Their Taunt is far better than provoke, their auras give more aggro, etc.  If you see yourself spending significant time tanking, you should probably play a tank.

 

FINAL BUT(T):

 

But what about Brutes?

 

Brutes are.. interesting.

 

Brute base hit points are only slightly better than a scrappers - but their max matches a tanks

Brute defense secondaries give the same value as a scrappers - but their caps match a tanks.

 

Brutes eventually need a lot of fury to keep up with the scrapper, and actually fall behind the scrapper as the buffs pile on - despite their higher buff cap, their lower base damage mod betrays them.  Further, if the Brute CANT keep its fury bar at least half full, its damage can fall behind the tanks - and the tanks higher base means buffs have more value, at least up until the tank hits its buff cap.

 

Brutes have a lot of head room for more survival, and if sufficient IOs and Incarnate powers exist, can be as tough as a tank could ever be, while doing potentially more damage (if sufficient external buffs/fury are present).  However, its cost to get there will be substantially higher than the tank, giving the tank additional room in their build to pursue recharge, passive health regen, or damage bonuses from IOs.  Still, I anticipate the builds may tend to converge in performance at the very top.

 

Brutes have a lot of head room for damage buffs as well, due to their extreme damage buff cap.  However, IOs do not provide THAT much +Dam, and so the brute will likely only get the full benefit of his high damage buff cap in the company of a pocket kinetic.  Even doing so, he wont match the scrapper.

 

Therefore, the use case for Brute seems to be as a less fragile scrapper, well sutied to early solo play but also capable of filling the same party roles as a tank, though it may need slightly more support to do so.  One can instead build the brute as a tank with greater early damage and soloability.

 

 

 

 

[Captain Fabulous]

A long discussion below the divider, TLDR at the top:

 

A tank is tougher than a scrapper is scrappy, but by endgame the toughness advantage mostly just doesn't matter - a tank is more tough than it should ever need to be, and the scrapper will always do more damage.  IOs make this worse. 

 

Tanks fill their role much better in teams, due to more aggro in their auras, better taunt, and a deeper well of HP and thereby resistance to mistake.  Any content that either could do solo the scrapper will probably do better, because of greater damage and sufficient toughness, but if you want to tank for a team, the tanker is always better.

 

The third choice, Brute, is an odd man out, splitting the difference between the two in many ways.  Its capable of Tanker toughness with sufficient IO investment (though this investment is much higher than required of a tank) ... but will never threaten the scrapper's damage potential.  In fact, in generic situations (medium rage bar, generic IOs, tanker res debuff) its damage is not terribly better than a tanks.  A Brute is best viewed mechanically as a tank that sacrifices defense for increased offense (especially in the early-mid levels), though it plays more as a 'heavy scrapper' that can stand in for a tank.

 

The choice is as always up to you.  I will note that Tankers are by far the slowest out of the starting gate, but for my own part, I have the most fun with them, either soloing at higher difficulties or with comfortable inevitability, by tanking the toughest opponents in the game and mocking them soundly while doing so, or by pushing the build envelope in odd places, safe in the fact that I have 'build space' to pursue recharge or regen or what-I-will, as it takes a much lower investment for a tank to reach hit point cap, defense cap, etc.  I'll also note that a heavy investment in +recharge can also pay for some impressive returns in total damage output - because you can focus your attack chain on fast-animating, high damage per frame powers (Energy Transfer most notably, even with the animation change)

 

Your mileage will vary.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If your just looking at 'making up for', no, the Scrapper does not do as much extra damage as the Tanker is extra tough.

 

First, Hit Points:

 

Scrapper Base:  1338

Scrapper Cap:  2409

 

Tanker Base:  1874

Tanker Cap:  3212

 

Brute Base:  1500

Brute Cap:  3212

 

At Base, the tanker has 140% of the Scrappers Hit Points, and 125% of the Brutes

At Cap, the tanker has 133% of the Scrappers Hit Points, and matches the Brute

 

 

Next, Damage:

Scrapper Damage Mod:  1.125, 500% Buff Cap, Crits  (Damage~7.425, maximum)

Tanker Damage Mod:  .8, 400% Buff Cap, Innate RES Debuff  (Damage=4.4 maximum)

Brute Damage Mod: .75, 775% Buff Cap, Fury (Damage=6.56 Maximum)

 

The Scrapper will do (formally) 165% of the Tankers Damage.  The scrapper has a larger damage bonus than the tanker has hit point bonus.

 

BUT:

 

A Tanks Primary gives larger buffs than a Scrappers Secondary.  Resist Energies gives more resistance to a tank than a scrapper.  Invincibility gives more defense to a tank than a scrapper.  In general, a Scrapper's Secondary is about 75% the value of the same power from a tankers primary.

 

So the tank has (at cap) 133% of the scrappers hit points, applied to 133% of the scrappers defenses.  So it would be ~77% harder to kill, and that is before you take into account the effect of increasing returns on +DEF and +RES... each point of DEF or RES is worth more than the one before, until you get to the cap.

 

And thats before the RES Cap (pretty much only an issue of S/L, or during unstoppable) comes into play - which makes the tank even -tougher-, relatively.

 

So, the Tanker is tougher (relative to the scrapper) than the Scrapper is powerful (relative to the tanker)

 

MORE BUT:

 

Long list of caveats:

1.)  Survivability only matters until the mobs cant kill you (or cant kill you before they die, or cant kill you often enough to matter).  For the vast majority of the game content, a 'mature but not maximized' Tank (Lvl 50, Generic IOs) is far, far tougher than there is any need to be.  So hes wasting value compared to the scrapper.

 

2.)  Offense is a kind of defense:  While maturing, the scrapper may survive situations that would kill the tank, ESPECIALLY early on - when mitigation isnt mitigating much, killing the foe first is for the win.

 

3.)  IOs and Incarnates Change Everything:  IOs are really good at giving defense, less good at giving resistance, really good at giving recharge, and not good at all at giving damage.  This suggests that a scrapper can more easily use IOs to reach 'basically unkillable' than a tank can use IOs to reach scrapper damage.  (Frankly, IOs can make a scrapper, if not as tough as a mature but not maximized tank, tough enough that noone but you will know the difference.  The reverse is not the case).  Incarnate powers I have not engaged in as fully, but seem similar. 

 

4.)  Those same IOs CAN make the tank so tough that the toughest scrapper is left in the dust, so tough that it boggles the minds of man.  Sea of deep purple +4 bosses?  Multiple Giant Monsters?  You can build a tank that the game basically cant kill, barring real insanity like untyped damage.  But see #1, above - unless your running the nastiest stuff in the game AND NOONE IS BUFFING YOU, you dont need it.

 

5.)  Actual Factual Tanking - Tanks hold aggro better, period and forever.  Their Taunt is far better than provoke, their auras give more aggro, etc.  If you see yourself spending significant time tanking, you should probably play a tank.

 

FINAL BUT(T):

 

But what about Brutes?

 

Brutes are.. interesting.

 

Brute base hit points are only slightly better than a scrappers - but their max matches a tanks

Brute defense secondaries give the same value as a scrappers - but their caps match a tanks.

 

Brutes eventually need a lot of fury to keep up with the scrapper, and actually fall behind the scrapper as the buffs pile on - despite their higher buff cap, their lower base damage mod betrays them.  Further, if the Brute CANT keep its fury bar at least half full, its damage can fall behind the tanks - and the tanks higher base means buffs have more value, at least up until the tank hits its buff cap.

 

Brutes have a lot of head room for more survival, and if sufficient IOs and Incarnate powers exist, can be as tough as a tank could ever be, while doing potentially more damage (if sufficient external buffs/fury are present).  However, its cost to get there will be substantially higher than the tank, giving the tank additional room in their build to pursue recharge, passive health regen, or damage bonuses from IOs.  Still, I anticipate the builds may tend to converge in performance at the very top.

 

Brutes have a lot of head room for damage buffs as well, due to their extreme damage buff cap.  However, IOs do not provide THAT much +Dam, and so the brute will likely only get the full benefit of his high damage buff cap in the company of a pocket kinetic.  Even doing so, he wont match the scrapper.

 

Therefore, the use case for Brute seems to be as a less fragile scrapper, well sutied to early solo play but also capable of filling the same party roles as a tank, though it may need slightly more support to do so.  One can instead build the brute as a tank with greater early damage and soloability.

 

Thank you for this. I appreciate the detail, and was exactly what I needed to know. I think I'm going to go with a scrapper.

[Captain Fabulous]

Aaaaand, Scrappers no longer have SS. Seriously???

[Gigajoule]

Was SS ever an option for Scrappers? It's been so long I don't remember.

[Generator]

Was SS ever an option for Scrappers? It's been so long I don't remember.

 

Not in the old days.  I read this thread working from the assumption that maybe the SCORE team proliferated it, but TBH I hadn't checked for myself.

[Rylas]

Aaaaand, Scrappers no longer have SS. Seriously???

 

I'm pretty sure it never was. I think proliferation still left some powersets out of some ATs specifically to push people into trying different ATs. SS was never a Scrapper option, like Ice Armor was never an Option for Brutes.

 

I'd recommend going the Brute route. You get SS, and can achieve Tanker levels of survival with IOs. If it's /Inv, I don't think it would take too much to hit at least the S/L def soft cap, and you could put in a fair amount of recharge to really up the damage output.

[Captain Fabulous]

Aaaaand, Scrappers no longer have SS. Seriously???

 

I'm pretty sure it never was. I think proliferation still left some powersets out of some ATs specifically to push people into trying different ATs. SS was never a Scrapper option, like Ice Armor was never an Option for Brutes.

 

I'd recommend going the Brute route. You get SS, and can achieve Tanker levels of survival with IOs. If it's /Inv, I don't think it would take too much to hit at least the S/L def soft cap, and you could put in a fair amount of recharge to really up the damage output.

 

I originally made a brute, and was OK with it till I realized all the colors in INV were "dark", and no way to adequately match the default light colors using customization. So that's when I thought, "OK, screw it, I'll make a scrapper". Well, that's out. So I went back to tank. And honestly, other than the powersets being swapped I don't really notice much of a difference from level 1-13. I think in longer, drawn out battles the brute might pull ahead in terms of damage, but that doesn't really seem to happen very often, especially while soloing. Things die too quickly for Fury to provide a buff that gives one a clear advantage. Of course things could change later on, but when I originally made this character in 2004 I made it to 50 as a tank without too many hurdles. so I'm sure I'll be just fine.

[Rylas]

...I don't really notice much of a difference from level 1-13.

 

Not surprising. At those levels, with Brutes lower multiplier on damage, it's gonna be hard seeing the higher damage without a lot of buffs. And since those levels make it difficult to take on large groups to ramp up the Fury, that's another reason early levels won't see a lot of difference.

 

I played Tanks a lot before CoV. Then became a Brute player. Then eventually did both. You'll notice the damage difference by 30. But either way, you're gonna have a good time.

[Heraclea]

I would add that:

 

My understanding (did no check) is that a tanker's mez resistance is slightly better than a brute's.  This usually doesn't make a difference, but it may if you are tanking a full team's worth of Carnies or such, or anything in Night Ward.

 

A tanker's second problem to solve is endurance. (This is also a much bigger problem for brutes than scrappers.) You will do less damage solo, but you win because you outlast everything.  That is to say, if you outlast them.  Defeating the spawns with blue to spare should be your second goal.  Endurance drain is unfortunately omnipresent, from Clockwork to Vanguard.  You  need to be ready for this, especially since teamed one of your jobs is eating the debuffs.  Solo, it's the difference between a frustrating character and a fun one.  My first merit IO investments are almost always Performance Shifter Chance for +End and Numina's Regen/Recovery. 

 

The attack sets that do slashing and lethal damage are more broken in the late game than the early game.  Those damage types are the most often resisted.  This will slow you down to the point it isn't as much fun.  Take those attacks if you like the concepts, but be ready to struggle against frequently encountered mobs like Rikti and Nemesis. 

[lokpyrite]

Not to be a dick but super strength isn't available for scrapper so your only options are tank and brute 

[Major_Decoy]

I think that, if your earnest intent is not to be a dick a good first step is to read the entire thread and see if your comment is necessary.

 

I checked, and Heraclea appears to be correct. It looks like a level 50 tank will have about mag 13 hold, stun, immobilize, and sleep protection, while a level 50 brute should have about mag 10. (I do not have a level 50 brute to check this on, I'm relying on Mids for those number.)

 

Those values also scale with level, at level 29, a scrapper/brute will have about 7~8 magnitude protection and a level 30 tank has already hit mag ten.

[Haijinx]

Only zombie scrappers get SS in Necropostlandia.

[Major_Decoy]

Oh, wow, I hadn't even noticed. lokpyrite commented on an eight month old post just for that?  To "not be a dick"?

[Haijinx]

21 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

Oh, wow, I hadn't even noticed. lokpyrite commented on an eight month old post just for that?  To "not be a dick"?

Evidently lol