copyrighted chars and npcs in game

[MunkiLord]

8 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

I assume someone getting a runner-up label for a costume contest got it from the HC team. I say this as I saw someone with it and it was a completely obvious redo of a known character. Kind of rubbed me the wrong way.  Reward people who actually have a bit of creativity.

Using limited tools to recreate other characters absolutely takes creativity, the amount of creativity varying depending on specifics. In general just as much creativity as someone creating an "original" character that has some variation of common origin stories, looks, and character names.

[jubakumbi]

48 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

Using limited tools to recreate other characters absolutely takes creativity, the amount of creativity varying depending on specifics. In general just as much creativity as someone creating an "original" character that has some variation of common origin stories, looks, and character names.

Yup.

The creative elitists that try to shame others for cosplay are the worst of the hall monitors.

[Frostbiter]

Still 1000x better than Furries Online that CO became.

[jubakumbi]

9 hours ago, PaxArcana said:

What's tired, worn out, and old ... is your incessant repetition of "FUD" whenever anyone counsels caution or self-restraint.

 

Oh, but you do.  Very, very falsely indeed.

I label FUD when I see it.

The OP is trying to get people to be scared of something that there is no reason to have fear over, IMO.

It has nothing to do with self-restaint and attempts to use caution as a weapon to instill fear to, in turn, get people to obey.

 

Self-restraint and caution are two of things I live my life by, but I base them on facts, not FUD.

 

It is fear, uncertainty, and doubt being used to make poeple Obey rules that do not exist.

Until HC issues a rule, there is no rule.

So, I don't think it is approriate for people like the OP to roll in with nothing but vague Fear and tell the rest of us how to be creative.

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by jubakumbi
speeling

[ShardWarrior]

12 hours ago, cparks7040 said:

I think  speak for all of us when I say we are all gateful to have COH back. im not a lawyer or versed on legal stuff as far as coprights. however I would like to encourge people to not make copyrighted chars using their name or likeness. I dont know who makes the comic con fire farms but I would also encourge those people to change the npcs costumes. I would hate for the game to be shut down because of people using copyrighted chars, it was strickly enforced during live for a reason and I think we should respect that.

You're playing an illegal copy of a game that was essentially taken without permission from the rightful owner.   I would be far, far, far more concerned about playing an illegal copy of the game than anything else causing the game to be shut down.  That is way more likely to be the cause rather than people making homage cosplay characters. 

 

8 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

Frankly, they're on shakier ground with NCSoft for hosting the game without permission in the first place.  If anything gets them shut down, that would be it.  Player-made clones of copyrighted characters should be the least of anyone's concerns.

^ This right here, not to mention not having permission to have the game code in the first place.

 

Personally, I think it best to let the Homecoming folk decide on what to do with this instead of the Google search law experts. 

[jubakumbi]

1 minute ago, ShardWarrior said:

Personally, I think it best to let the Homecoming folk decide on what to do with this instead of the Google search law experts. 

C'mon man!

Let them Google all they like, they might learn something!

[Rathulfr]

3 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

instead of the Google search law experts

They're almost as good as WebMD doctors!

[Abraxus]

I have some "homage" characters.  Perhaps some that others might consider a little too close to the mark.  I'm having fun with some light RP'ing with them, which is something of a rarity for me.  So, until/unless there is something that specifically prohibits such things, forcing me to make enough changes to avoid the hint of violating the rules, I will keep on having fun with these characters.

[Rathulfr]

17 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

I have some "homage" characters.  Perhaps some that others might consider a little too close to the mark.  I'm having fun with some light RP'ing with them, which is something of a rarity for me.  So, until/unless there is something that specifically prohibits such things, forcing me to make enough changes to avoid the hint of violating the rules, I will keep on having fun with these characters.

 

I also have one homage character, a Water/Poison Corruptor named "Duff-Man".  I created him as a joke, and I fully intended to delete him, because I despise clone/homage/parody characters.  I am sick and tired of seeing the umpteenth Iron Man, Captain America, Doctor Strange, Superman, Spider-Man, etc.  Every time I see one, I feel nothing but contempt and disgust with the lack of respect and creativity.  Personally, I believe that clone characters should be disqualified automatically from any costume contests.  I really hate clone characters.

 

Yet I really enjoy playing Duff-Man.  I love the build, I love the gold & white effects that make the water attacks look like beer, I love throwing out oddball Duff Man quotes.  So I haven't deleted him yet.  I guess that makes me the biggest hypocrite ever.  Guilty as charged, pot meets kettle, etc.  That said, I doubt Matt Groening or Fox are going to come after Homecoming for my creating and playing Duff-Man on a pirate game server.

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Rathulfr

[MunkiLord]

4 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

 

I guess that makes me the biggest hypocrite ever. 

 

Eh, we're all hypocrites in one way or another.

[Abraxus]

I don't enter my homage characters in contests.  It just doesn't feel right to me, and besides; that's not why I created them.  I did so because I enjoyed the idea of the light RP, using catch phrases, and other semi-recognizable instances from the original in my game play.  But, I don't feel like I need to rewarded for how well I used the costume/character creator to approximate them.  Anyone with the will, and a little time can do that, and I don't need validation that badly. 😉

[jubakumbi]

3 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

 

I also have one homage character, a Water/Poison Corruptor named "Duff-Man".  I created him as a joke, and I fully intended to delete him, because I despise clone/homage/parody characters.  I am sick and tired of seeing the umpteenth Iron Man, Captain America, Doctor Strange, Superman, Spider-Man, etc.  Every time I see one, I feel nothing but contempt and disgust with the lack of respect and creativity.  Personally, I believe that clone characters should be disqualified automatically from any costume contests.  I really hate clone characters.

 

Yet I really enjoy playing Duff-Man.  I love the build, I love the gold & white effects that make the water attacks look like beer, I love throwing out oddball Duff Man quotes.  So I haven't deleted him yet.  I guess that makes me the biggest hypocrite ever.  Guilty as charged, pot meets kettle, etc.  That said, I doubt Matt Groening or Fox are going to come after Homecoming for my creating and playing Duff-Man on a pirate game server.

 

I try to remember, the person at the keyboard might be a child or a person with special needs, all kinds of reasons being the Hulk for a little while makes them feel better.

Why would I want to take that joy away from another human being?

 

I have dealt with this my enitre life as a hardcore geek.

There are some people that see cosplay/homage/clone as evil and wrong.

I have simply never understood the outlook, especially in comics where characters get re-written by new faces all the time.

IME, many of these same people are the ones that love to argue over minutae about what should and should not be 'official' in thier IPs, something I personally find interesting as a topic, but not as the holy war many make it out to be...

 

I just want people to play and have fun, without the busy bodies and hall monitors telling them they are doing it wrong...

 

[justicebeliever]

8 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

Homecoming is facilitating fan-created art in digital and animated form.  And it does so in no way that prevents other copyright holders from from their ability to profit from their work.  The same is true of DeviantArt, Reddit, Imgur, or Facebook for that matter.  There's all kinds of fan-art on those sites: and those sites profit from them indirectly, all without infringing on the rights of other copyright holders.  If DC or Marvel or any other copyright holder wants to go after anyone, they'll probably go after those before they bother with piddly little Homecoming.

 

Could they if they wanted to?  Absolutely.  Would they be right?  Definitely.  But would it actually shut down the servers?  I doubt it.  Worst-case, Homecoming gets a C&D, and they have to do the same thing that NCSoft did: crack down on offending characters.  If they demonstrated due diligence in trying to prevent abuse, they'd be covered, legally.  They might have to pay for legal fees and/or a settlement, like NCSoft did.  But the game would go on.

 

Frankly, they're on shakier ground with NCSoft for hosting the game without permission in the first place.  If anything gets them shut down, that would be it.  Player-made clones of copyrighted characters should be the least of anyone's concerns.

This is pretty close...The italicized part is slightly off...these sites may absolutely be infringing upon other copyright holders, but their ability to do so, has not been challenged thus fair.

 

The distinction is made really clear in the 2nd paragraph...Could DC/Marvel target DeviantArt?  Yes...Would they win?  Probably...Would it be worth it?  Probably not, court costs and the public backlash would be pretty high...

 

Fan Art by itself has not been established as a fair use exception to copyright yet...Homage can be covered, if the fan art is transformative,  And transformative works are why there is such a plethora of superheroes across multiple publishers today.  It's why you have Justice League and the Squadron Supreme, Mr. Fantastic and Elongated Man, Namor/Aquaman, Bullseye/Deadshot, Deathstroke/Deadpool, etc, etc.  I'm pretty sure that the daily Dr. Strange or Superman sighting is not "Homage", since they are almost identical.  Parody is also covered, however Parodies must be exactly that...they must be somehow ridiculing something, so 90% of superhero clones in CoH would fail to meet that test. 

 

Regardless, the industry seems pretty lax about it - just walk into any comic convention...

 

7 hours ago, Derekl1963 said:

Keep in mind that what we're talking about are trademarked characters, and there is no Fair Use for trademarks.  What folks seem to be talking about here is copyright law, which is irrelevant.

There is absolutely fair use for Trademarks...Product Review sites don't have to get permission from the product owner in order to review them.  I can say, well within my 1st amendment rights, that I think Superman is far superior than Batman.  Both are trademarked, and both are protected under the nominative fair use exception for trademarks.  

 

Creating a Batman look alike is a copyright violation, not a trademark.  Creating a character whose secret identity is Bruce Wayne is likely a copyright violation, but is definitely not a trademark.  Creating a lizard blaster and calling him Batman, is absolutely a trademark violation.  And creating any superhero with the word "superhero" in it is a violation of trademark (oddly Marvel/DC jointly own a trademark on Superhero)

 

Is using these names (or slight variations like Bat-Man or Bat-manX, or Batman 2) a violation of trademark law?  Most definitely...but it's something that IF Homecoming gets contacted about, they can do what's already been stated, just remove those names from the existing characters (like live) and motor on.

 

---

TL;DR - The legality of these issues is always a big questions mark.  However, the enforcement of them, in this situation (fan art) is extremely lax, and given the non-commercial nature of what HC is doing here, I'm highly dubious that there will be any action against the look or origin of characters.  Ultimately, maybe naming rules come into play, but even that's not a certainty...

Edited September 11, 2019 by justicebeliever

[ShardWarrior]

8 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

Every time I see one, I feel nothing but contempt and disgust with the lack of respect and creativity.

So when you were a kid, you and your friends dressed up and played as "Generic Hero Guy XYZ123"?  Or did you pretend to be Batman, Superman, Spider-Man etc.?

 

Making cosplays is not disrespectful in any way, shape or form.  It shows the passion, great love and affection people have for favorite characters from their childhood.  And I challenge you to watch any cosplay videos on YouTube from comic con and try to claim those people have a "lack of  creativity."  Some of their creations are truly amazing. 

 

I personally have seen more characters created as puns for male anatomy or used feminine products, some of which have names that are truly offensive and disgusting to me.  With that said, the very last thing I will do is report those people for it.   

 

[jubakumbi]

5 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

Regardless, the industry seems pretty lax about it - just walk into any comic convention...

 

TL;DR - The legality of these issues is always a big questions mark.  However, the enforcement of them, in this situation (fan art) is extremely lax, and given the non-commercial nature of what HC is doing here, I'm highly dubious that there will be any action against the look or origin of characters.  Ultimately, maybe naming rules come into play, but even that's not a certainty...

This. Precedents matter.

CoH is cosplay in the modern world.

If the 'big evil coporations' decide that CoH is infringing, they know they have to go after every single MMO.

DCUO, SWTOR, STO, they all have clones/homages running around, all the time.

These homages/clones can be found in all MMOs, all the time, since I started playing Asherons Call.

The only difference is that we have a few more costume parts to make them better due to the awesome character creator.

 

The moment HC or a player starts trying to make $ off of those copyrights and trademarks or starts trying to represent themsleves as the owner, then there is a problem.

That has not occured, TMK.

If someone wants to live in fear of the 'evil coporations', that is thier choice, I choose not to do so.

 

One of my favorite songs has a line about people being more afraid of credit cards than terror squads.

Corporate lawyers want us to be full of fear over these things.

I refuse.

[Abraxus]

Yup.  That's a great way to put it!  This is animated cosplay for those of us who don't do the "Con" circuit, or just couldn't get into the actual physical costume vibe. 

[Rathulfr]

9 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

So when you were a kid, you and your friends dressed up and played as "Generic Hero Guy XYZ123"?  Or did you pretend to be Batman, Superman, Spider-Man etc.?

 

Making cosplays is not disrespectful in any way, shape or form.  It shows the passion, great love and affection people have for favorite characters from their childhood.  And I challenge you to watch any cosplay videos on YouTube from comic con and try to claim those people have a "lack of  creativity."  Some of their creations are truly amazing. 

 

I personally have seen more characters created as puns for male anatomy or used feminine products, some of which have names that are truly offensive and disgusting to me.  With that said, the very last thing I will do is report those people for it.   

 

I sure did: but that's okay, because kids don't know better.  I loved comic books as a kid, and I spent countless hours drawing my favorite heroes.  But when I got older, I started drawing my own heroes.  I learned that there's more satisfaction and joy in my own work, rather than ripping off someone else's.  I learned there's value in my own creativity and effort, and that I should respect the creativity and effort of others.  Eventually, I came to learn the importance and significance of intellectual property, and why it needs to be protected.  That's part of the process of growing up.

 

That doesn't make me or my opinion better than anyone else's.  And it doesn't invalidate the opinions of others.  I was just describing how I feel when I see other clones.  Am I wrong to feel this way?  Probably.  It makes me a judgmental prick.  Add that to the hypocrisy and pile it on with the rest of my flaws.  I'm the chief of sinners, as the apostle Paul once said.

[Without_Pause]

1 hour ago, MunkiLord said:

Using limited tools to recreate other characters absolutely takes creativity, the amount of creativity varying depending on specifics. In general just as much creativity as someone creating an "original" character that has some variation of common origin stories, looks, and character names.

Considering how easy it was to recreate known characters to where NCSoft literally got sued for it, I'll just say we are going to have to agree to disagree on how creative one has to be with one of the better character creator tools around. I'm not saying people can't make heroes they like. I'm just saying lets not get carried away with saying how creative people are for making Hulk#Over9000. Hell, I really like my take on Cap, but there was very little creative about it. Basically make Cap and add in something I like putting on similar looking heroes as sort of my own trademark and call it a day. Note I didn't keep the character. I didn't have it in a costume contest because, hello, it was quite obvious what I was going for.

 

Oddly enough, I did recently think about how I kind of made X-23 here before she was a thing or at least before I knew she was a thing.

[justicebeliever]

5 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

That doesn't make me or my opinion better than anyone else's.  And it doesn't invalidate the opinions of others.  I was just describing how I feel when I see other clones.  Am I wrong to feel this way?  Probably.  It makes me a judgmental prick.  Add that to the hypocrisy and pile it on with the rest of my flaws.  I'm the chief of sinners, as the apostle Paul once said.

We should all be so self aware...Add me to that list of hypocrites...

[daHob]

What is the point of all of this? Most folks who play don't look at the forums. People are still going to make Superman clones. The staff of Homecoming almost certainly don't have the ability to actually prevent folks from making clones. A significant portion of the player base either doesn't care or wants to make clones so you are unlikely to change the culture. 

 

Marvel and DC went after NCSoft because they wanted to launch their own games and they wanted to muscle CoH out of their market space. They made their games and they failed (financially) as hard as CoH did. At this point there is no financial incentive for anyone who can do anything to act. No money to be protected, nor any to be made. Someone might act out of spite, but they could do that even if there weren't any clones on the server. Just getting a baseless suit thrown out of court would most likely bankrupt this whole venture. 

 

This whole thing is a sandcastle. It's going to go away eventually (hopefully later rather than sooner) so just play the fuck out of it now and enjoy it while it lasts. 

[jubakumbi]

12 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

That doesn't make me or my opinion better than anyone else's.  And it doesn't invalidate the opinions of others.  I was just describing how I feel when I see other clones.  

This is the crux of the matter.

The reason these opinions matter at all, is because someone, somewhere, pays $ to turn them into Law, or a the very least, Restrictive License Agreements.

 

There is still a huge gap between 'not liking' a world where not everyone can be creative enough to come up with thier characters - a lot of poeple in the world really just don't have much of that spark - and a place where no one can Cosplay as thier Hero due to litigation.

 

There are a ton of characters and names and themes I absolutely detest other people would bring into the CoH happy-fun-time world.

I will not name them nor shame them, because my opinion is the issue, not the way they have fun.

Edited September 11, 2019 by jubakumbi
speeling

[jubakumbi]

1 minute ago, daHob said:

What is the point of all of this?

Some people like to discuss things?

Do you think all forum threads have to end in a bullet list of tasks to be given to someone, or come to some definitive conclusion?

 

The point is for people to converse.

[dmaker]

I find these threads amusing. The whole "I'm worried about legal exposure created by costumes that infringe upon trademarks!"  Then people go on about contempt and disrespect for people who create homage or cosplay costumes. 

 

Which is it? Pearl clutching over the possible legal issues, or a veiled excuse to berate others because you feel more creative than they seem to be?

 

 

[daHob]

2 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Some people like to discuss things?

Do you think all forum threads have to end in a bullet list of tasks to be given to someone, or come to some definitive conclusion?

 

The point is for people to converse.

Fair enough. I think I may be in a grumpy mood today.

[jubakumbi]

2 minutes ago, dmaker said:

I find these threads amusing. The whole "I'm worried about legal exposure created by costumes that infringe upon trademarks!"  Then people go on about contempt and disrespect for people who create homage or cosplay costumes. 

 

Which is it? Pearl clutching over the possible legal issues, or a veiled excuse to berate others because you feel more creative than they seem to be?

Both IME.

The issue can only go in a circle, as no one on these forums can give any kind of definitive, world-correct answer to either validate to remove the fear of the Copyright/Trademak Police.

 

 

Been having this discussion for at least 15-20 years.