Kill Stealing

[Top Cat]

I'm an old gamer. My first gaming system was an Intellivision, my first multiplayer "online" game was Trade Wars (although I liked Legend of the Red Dragon more), and I played MUDs before Everquest and Ultima Online came around.

 

Kill stealing was a problem in the old days. It really started with MUDs, and since an extremely large portion of the MUD concept was lifted wholesale to make Everquest, kill stealing came with it. The first attempt to "fix" the problem, enemy exclusivity (the first person to damage a MOB gets credit for its death) was just as much of a problem as what it was attempting to cure.

 

So, yeah, I understand people who are upset about perceived kill stealing. They're wrong about it when dealing with CoX, but their attitude is at least understandable. This, on the other hand...

 

Having a hard time with people saying "if you don't like it then do...".  KS has been a bad part of this game since I joined in May 2004. Some don't realize this is CHEATING and should be looked at as cheating. People who cheat shouldn't be able to dictate how a person of character plays.

 

If the person doesn't understand how KS works let them know what they did is wrong. if they do it again I would report them to the server admin and see what he/has to say.

 

One thing people can do is ask if they can help....

What?!? How is it cheating? I understand that this is a hot topic for some people, but you're trying to declare rules that don't even exist.

[THEDarkTyger]

So, those of an Evil alignment should not play their characters as if they had an Evil alignment?

 

The very concept is baffiling.

 

It's called IC/OOC boundaries. Griefing other PLAYERS is not roleplaying. It's being a jerk.

[QuiJon]

Though you might think this is a PSA of some kind the OP needs to also take into account that the KS could not be happening strictly because of poor conduct. When the servers are at high loads I commonly get a lot of lag in open city zones and have more then once engaged an enemy that was standing there alone (or a mob that was alone) only to have my screen blink and suddenly a player character is there next to me fighting the mob also. I think until things get smoother we just need to chill on the idea that anyone is conducting themselves poorly and give the benefit of the doubt sometimes.

[Charistoph]

So, those of an Evil alignment should not play their characters as if they had an Evil alignment?

 

The very concept is baffiling.

 

It's called IC/OOC boundaries. Griefing other PLAYERS is not roleplaying. It's being a jerk.

 

Read the line you quoted again and think about what you said really carefully.  Also consider the many other factors involved in the CoX engine which makes kill "stealing" a non-issue.

[HelenCarnate]

So, those of an Evil alignment should not play their characters as if they had an Evil alignment?

 

The very concept is baffiling.

 

It's called IC/OOC boundaries. Griefing other PLAYERS is not roleplaying. It's being a jerk.

 

Unless they are following you around and targeting everything you target it is not griefing.

[THEDarkTyger]

So, those of an Evil alignment should not play their characters as if they had an Evil alignment?

 

The very concept is baffiling.

 

It's called IC/OOC boundaries. Griefing other PLAYERS is not roleplaying. It's being a jerk.

 

Unless they are following you around and targeting everything you target it is not griefing.

Apparently you didn't actually read the post that started this tangent. I was referring to using "I'm RPing an evil character" as an excuse to be a jerk to other PLAYERS. Disrespecting boundaries and the like. It's like in other games where "ninja looting" was a thing, people claiming they're justified in doing it because they're a thief/rogue and "RPing their class". No, that's crossing the OOC line by abusing a mechanic to be a jerk to the players. "RPing" used to justify bad OOC behavior is just despicable.

[AlBQuirky]

Having a hard time with people saying "if you don't like it then do...".  KS has been a bad part of this game since I joined in May 2004. Some don't realize this is CHEATING and should be looked at as cheating. People who cheat shouldn't be able to dictate how a person of character plays.

 

If the person doesn't understand how KS works let them know what they did is wrong. if they do it again I would report them to the server admin and see what he/has to say.

 

One thing people can do is ask if they can help....

 

The only people in this thread trying to dictate to others how they play is you. I would ask you to do two things, though. First, look up the definition of cheating as it clearly does not mean what you think it does. Second, don't bother GMs with something that is completely irrelevant in the game given the way the game handles things unless someone is griefing you with actual kill stealing, which means they're nuking mobs you're clearly going for before you can even engage.

Doesn't it take 2 to argue? Aren't both sides tryong to enforce their own gameplay on others?

[DeathMist]

Ya'll are grown ass Men & Women.

 

I'm pretty this is such a non-issue.

 

Yo, if you wanna hit my mobs, hit em. I'ma party you up and we gonna fight crime, or make crime... TOGETHER, IN AN MMO. (what a novel idea)

[srmalloy]

Like someone else said, it only becomes a problem if the person is persistently following you around and sniping your kills even after you ask them to stop. But "killstealing" in general in itself isn't seen as rude by the vast majority of players.

 

I had one of those today; doing Aaron Thiery's mission to defeat five Arachnos commanders. I never looked closely enough to get his name, but he had Axe Melee and I think Super Speed. He was running around looking for the spawns with Arachnos commanders, and on four of the five I needed, he'd run up, take a single whack with his axe at the commander, and run off, leaving me to finish the commander and the rest of its spawn on my own. It was annoying, but I didn't think it was important enough to raise a stink over; that sort of thing only works at low levels where a single hit does enough damage for him to get defeat credit, and won't work at all for door missions.

[_NOPE_]

Having a hard time with people saying "if you don't like it then do...".  KS has been a bad part of this game since I joined in May 2004. Some don't realize this is CHEATING and should be looked at as cheating. People who cheat shouldn't be able to dictate how a person of character plays.

 

If the person doesn't understand how KS works let them know what they did is wrong. if they do it again I would report them to the server admin and see what he/has to say.

 

One thing people can do is ask if they can help....

 

The only people in this thread trying to dictate to others how they play is you. I would ask you to do two things, though. First, look up the definition of cheating as it clearly does not mean what you think it does. Second, don't bother GMs with something that is completely irrelevant in the game given the way the game handles things unless someone is griefing you with actual kill stealing, which means they're nuking mobs you're clearly going for before you can even engage.

Doesn't it take 2 to argue? Aren't both sides tryong to enforce their own gameplay on others?

 

Pretendy fun time games:

 

https://wadewilson.livejournal.com/11285.html

[Dr. Gemini]

Having a hard time with people saying "if you don't like it then do...".  KS has been a bad part of this game since I joined in May 2004. Some don't realize this is CHEATING and should be looked at as cheating. People who cheat shouldn't be able to dictate how a person of character plays.

 

If the person doesn't understand how KS works let them know what they did is wrong. if they do it again I would report them to the server admin and see what he/has to say.

 

One thing people can do is ask if they can help....

 

The only people in this thread trying to dictate to others how they play is you. I would ask you to do two things, though. First, look up the definition of cheating as it clearly does not mean what you think it does. Second, don't bother GMs with something that is completely irrelevant in the game given the way the game handles things unless someone is griefing you with actual kill stealing, which means they're nuking mobs you're clearly going for before you can even engage.

Doesn't it take 2 to argue? Aren't both sides tryong to enforce their own gameplay on others?

 

Actually, no, it can take many more or less than 2 to argue. Also, no, to the second part. One side is requiring everyone to actively play in a manner that suits them. The other is not requiring any actions of them. If this thread we're the Council of Game Rules then we would have passed a resolution saying kill stealing is allowed. That would not require the people complaining about to one thing differently in how they play. They might choose to only play instances in response, but that would be a choice. If, on the other hand, everyone in the thread agreed and no kill stealing became a rule, those who take actions these people consider kill stealing would be required to play in a different manner than they currently do, whatever their reasons for attacking spawns another player has engaged.

[AlBQuirky]

Having a hard time with people saying "if you don't like it then do...".  KS has been a bad part of this game since I joined in May 2004. Some don't realize this is CHEATING and should be looked at as cheating. People who cheat shouldn't be able to dictate how a person of character plays.

 

If the person doesn't understand how KS works let them know what they did is wrong. if they do it again I would report them to the server admin and see what he/has to say.

 

One thing people can do is ask if they can help....

 

The only people in this thread trying to dictate to others how they play is you. I would ask you to do two things, though. First, look up the definition of cheating as it clearly does not mean what you think it does. Second, don't bother GMs with something that is completely irrelevant in the game given the way the game handles things unless someone is griefing you with actual kill stealing, which means they're nuking mobs you're clearly going for before you can even engage.

Doesn't it take 2 to argue? Aren't both sides tryong to enforce their own gameplay on others?

 

Actually, no, it can take many more or less than 2 to argue. Also, no, to the second part. One side is requiring everyone to actively play in a manner that suits them. The other is not requiring any actions of them. If this thread we're the Council of Game Rules then we would have passed a resolution saying kill stealing is allowed. That would not require the people complaining about to one thing differently in how they play. They might choose to only play instances in response, but that would be a choice. If, on the other hand, everyone in the thread agreed and no kill stealing became a rule, those who take actions these people consider kill stealing would be required to play in a different manner than they currently do, whatever their reasons for attacking spawns another player has engaged.

It isn't saying "suck it up"? It isn't forcing others to "accept" their help? Interesting...

[jubakumbi]

It isn't saying "suck it up"? It isn't forcing others to "accept" their help? Interesting...

 

More like, 'you are playing in public and only the server code has rules', IMO.

 

Do these same people think they can prevent me from cussing in public?

 

This tired OLD argument has gone round and round for years and years.

 

IMO, it boils down to some people not being able to deal with the fact they cannot control the universe.

If you did not notice, the OP 'left' after posts in this thread, so thier coping mechanism was to run away.

 

A puclic server supports multiple playstyles.

If you want only people that 'act the one true right way', run your own server and invite them.

[Yamato]

Golden Rule people. Respect others wishes. Doesn't take much effort to not piss people off. And if you're one of those people who can't follow procedures maybe you should be the one who runs their own server. These are the same people who would play tanks and draw aggro to the controllers during Hami raids.

 

That being said...give people who KS a break. They're probably a noob in the game or just too young to understand how things work.

[Charistoph]

That being said...give people who KS a break. They're probably a noob in the game or just too young to understand how things work.

 

Or people who understand how the system works over all.  Grinding NPCs is the slowest way to progress in the game.  As has been explained numerous times already, the kill-stealing that happens in other (usually OLDER) games simply does not happen here and hasn't happened in literally so long that wasting electrons and blood pressure complaining about it is a non-issue from a mechanics point of view.  You're so far better off completing Missions, which means hitting those Contacts, the Radio, etc., that this doesn't even register as a proper complaint on gameplay-only point of view.

 

If you're RPing that your character only does things in the surface world, then either a: you should be thankful for another hero's help, or b: secretly plotting revenge against the a-hole who snicked a piece of your victim.  Either way, you wouldn't be complaining here.  None of these options fit the bill of venting a spleen over something so meaningless.

[WolfWings]

So what you and the other person(s) are advocating then is for people to do this and attempting to invalidate the OP's concerns?  I think with the return of the game perhaps there is a compelling argument to be had to perhaps find a better perspective that doesn't promote people being unkind to others and then masking it with excuses/reasons of "Im helping" or "go play indoors".

 

...when the concerns ARE invalid by their very nature, as everyone gets full chance at loot drops that damages any given enemy, and gets a influence/experience based on their team's (not individual) overall contribution to the kill? There's no such thing as kill stealing in City of Heroes, if you each do 50% of the damage it took to kill the monster (NOT 50% of their maximum health, 50% of the total damage dealt before they fall down), you split the experience/influence 50/50 and both get full loot drops.

 

Especially when street-grinding is purposefully slower to level than running missions due to the end-of-mission rewards, and street-grinding is the only place where you can encounter players not on your own team (which all get the full XP/influence reward whenever anyone falls down) then yes, if seeing another player run by and contribute in the outdoors upsets you? Go indoors. Because it's your own perception not the game mechanics that make it a problem.

 

I do agree that with the higher exp rate we all are enjoying via these server iterations and that other changes before and now make such extreme kill stealing for the most part a smaller/non issue in terms of mechanics/leveling but in terms of how it presents itself to various players as someone else stated in a rude or similar (line cutting, perhaps) manner isn't necessarily being necessarily condemned/address except to say "deal with it if you want to be outside" which really sends a rather equally poor message.

 

There's no line cutting in this case, deal damage, get rewards, straight up. There's no downside to someone else tossing in damage/punches anymore than two Sewer teams bumping into each other due to differing tempo's and flowing past each other.

 

I joined a frostfire team over the weekend on my thermal mastermind, we had some fun and killed us an elite boss. Afterwards, I was flying back to Paragon City and noticed a level 11 tanker (I was 18 at the time) getting into a fight with way too many trolls. So being the meddling do-gooder I am, I started chain-healing him. He didn't seem to understand that for all intents and purposes I was making him invulnerable to the trolls, since I could outheal their damage easily, so he ended up running back to get them zapped by police drones.

 

But hey, I tried!

 

Another possibility is that the player was trying to test something/do something specific that your help interfered with?  It probably wasn't necessarily the case in your example situation, but I have seen folks doing that(as an example seeing how many of a certain level/mob type can be handled by a certain power/combination of powers.  Doing such on the streets is typically much easier than in a door mission since its more quickly/readily available.  We never know but we invariably make assumptions and a judgement call(at least when intentionally being helpful).

 

If they need specific test conditions w.r.t. levels/powers/etc, that's literally what AE is for. Controlled synthetic environments. If they're trying to "save time" by doing such tests outdoors in public? It's a gamble, those mobs might get blown up without even another PC involved, another enemy type they're not friendly with, or a zone event could even land while they're "testing" so I'm sorry, anyone interested in purposefully testing things should expect to go hang out in AE or the like.

 

I think you're extremely reaching instead of understanding how the City of Heroes reward system works: There's no such thing as Kill Stealing here, it was removed in an early Live edition when they were putting Giant Monsters in. In fact the anti-kill-stealing code is why many teams would get zero rewards for Eochai/Jack in Irons on Live if those two giant monsters run into each other long enough before PCs decide to fight them: Neither can actually kill the other, but they'll keep damaging each other until it's possible for a PC team to kill either of them but do so little damage overall compared to the other Giant Monster as to fall under 1% XP/Influence which ends up rounding out to 0.

 

Similarly, getting a given item of loot as a drop doesn't mean you 'missed' on other things unlike in some other MMOs: Each loot type that can drop is rolled separately in City of Heroes, always has been, so you can in fact get four or more rewards from a single enemy (Salvage, Inspiration, Enhancement, Recipe) for example, not even counting Inf/XP itself.

[Dr. Gemini]

It isn't saying "suck it up"? It isn't forcing others to "accept" their help? Interesting...

Telling someone to "suck it up" is not the same as telling them what actions they are allowed to take in the game. In this case, its telling them they won't get any sympathy coming here and complaining, especially with such hyperbole as they were using, about something that is irrelevant.

 

I wasn't aware there was a "smack player for helping" action you could take in the game which we're forcing this person not to use, or a "refuse help" button. If there isn't such an ability then its not telling them how to play because, to restate, they are not being told to do anything differently from what they are doing now. There is no action they can take to accept help, there is no action they can take to keep others away from their enemies in open world, there is no action they can take to retaliate for being "helped". The only thing they can do is address the person they feel wronged them and no one has told them not to do so.

[Piledriver]

Kill stealing was a problem in the old days. It really started with MUDs, and since an extremely large portion of the MUD concept was lifted wholesale to make Everquest, kill stealing came with it.

 

Always, ever, obviously a design flaw. Leaving players to sort it out instead of fixing it was even shittier; they don't have the means to fix it properly.

 

Players continuing to play such badly designed games is why things don't get better.

 

Someone tried to bring me over to Everquest from Asheron's Call back when they were still the chocolate and vanilla of 3D MUDs (I'm thinking it was around Christmas '99, since I'd been going heavy in AC throughout the Beta for most of that year) and that was something encountered in the first five minutes, right there in the starting area. AC had that problem scouted in its core design, sorted before it even got out of Alpha. I dropped EQ like the hot piece of garbage that it was, and still resent every player who put up with it. Mind, that wasn't its only failure -- the almost complete lack of character customization and forcing fantasy religion on players was also awful. Sadly, they had more players, because, I suppose, most people have terrible taste.

[THEDarkTyger]

Kill stealing was a problem in the old days. It really started with MUDs, and since an extremely large portion of the MUD concept was lifted wholesale to make Everquest, kill stealing came with it.

 

Always, ever, obviously a design flaw. Leaving players to sort it out instead of fixing it was even shittier; they don't have the means to fix it properly.

 

Players continuing to play such badly designed games is why things don't get better.

 

Someone tried to bring me over to Everquest from Asheron's Call back when they were still the chocolate and vanilla of 3D MUDs (I'm thinking it was around Christmas '99, since I'd been going heavy in AC throughout the Beta for most of that year) and that was something encountered in the first five minutes, right there in the starting area. AC had that problem scouted in its core design, sorted before it even got out of Alpha. I dropped EQ like the hot piece of garbage that it was, and still resent every player who put up with it. Mind, that wasn't its only failure -- the almost complete lack of character customization and forcing fantasy religion on players was also awful. Sadly, they had more players, because, I suppose, most people have terrible taste.

 

Wow, way to blanket insult a ton of people who liked a game you didn't.

[Piledriver]

A game that had the aforementioned glaring flaws and "a ton of people" not only willing to accept them but to blame other players for being the problem? Yeah.

[jubakumbi]

Kill stealing was a problem in the old days. It really started with MUDs, and since an extremely large portion of the MUD concept was lifted wholesale to make Everquest, kill stealing came with it.

 

Always, ever, obviously a design flaw. Leaving players to sort it out instead of fixing it was even shittier; they don't have the means to fix it properly.

 

Players continuing to play such badly designed games is why things don't get better.

 

Someone tried to bring me over to Everquest from Asheron's Call back when they were still the chocolate and vanilla of 3D MUDs (I'm thinking it was around Christmas '99, since I'd been going heavy in AC throughout the Beta for most of that year) and that was something encountered in the first five minutes, right there in the starting area. AC had that problem scouted in its core design, sorted before it even got out of Alpha. I dropped EQ like the hot piece of garbage that it was, and still resent every player who put up with it. Mind, that wasn't its only failure -- the almost complete lack of character customization and forcing fantasy religion on players was also awful. Sadly, they had more players, because, I suppose, most people have terrible taste.

 

You want a martini with all those bitters?

 

Sure, you are entitiled to your opinion.

 

IMO, some people take ganes too seriously for a healthy life and should seek medical attention.

 

If playing CoH helpes you enjoy life, I am glad.

 

I don't want personalities this bitter over a video game to be part of my life...

[Galactiman]

There's no such thing as kill stealing in this game anymore. This thread is pointless.

[Dr. Gemini]

There's no such thing as kill stealing in this game anymore. This thread is pointless.

 

Probably about 90% of all arguments on a game forum are. We have to occupy our time somehow...

[Healix]

I used to take Healix into the Hollows, go invisible and fly around healing heroes who's health was waning while fighting baddies. Then I'd usually fly away quickly, LOL. It was fun to watch them look around to see where the heals came from. I am guilty of KILL HEALING! I plan on doing it again. muhahahahaha

[wjrasmussen]

Kill stealing was a problem in the old days. It really started with MUDs, and since an extremely large portion of the MUD concept was lifted wholesale to make Everquest, kill stealing came with it.

 

Always, ever, obviously a design flaw. Leaving players to sort it out instead of fixing it was even shittier; they don't have the means to fix it properly.

 

Players continuing to play such badly designed games is why things don't get better.

 

Someone tried to bring me over to Everquest from Asheron's Call back when they were still the chocolate and vanilla of 3D MUDs (I'm thinking it was around Christmas '99, since I'd been going heavy in AC throughout the Beta for most of that year) and that was something encountered in the first five minutes, right there in the starting area. AC had that problem scouted in its core design, sorted before it even got out of Alpha. I dropped EQ like the hot piece of garbage that it was, and still resent every player who put up with it. Mind, that wasn't its only failure -- the almost complete lack of character customization and forcing fantasy religion on players was also awful. Sadly, they had more players, because, I suppose, most people have terrible taste.

Design flaw in your opinion.  You know that just because you have an opinion that doesn't make you automatically correct. RIGHT?