Huge Suggestion for dynamic content development

[AlabasterKnight]

Greetings.

Now that the game has evolved in so many ways and is changed in terms of marketing focus and revenue generation, I see no reason not to do this crazy drastic thing....:

Connect "red side" and "blue side". 
Let's remove that barrier. 

I never got the feeling when playing red side I was really a 'villain' anyway... just a glorified mercenary stuck in a crappy part of the world...

Why don't we make the red and blue factions simply Supers who don't want to be registered and those that do (or something to this effect). If you're red, Longbow might ambush you once in a while, if you're blue faction, well... maybe that's Arachnos. Maybe that's delineated by your SG if you have one?

The original impetus for them being separate and unique is meaningless anyway with being able to willy nilly change your alignment in Pocket D and go over anyway...
You can already make any archetype you want...

Players teams could still flag red or blue if they realy wanted to do PvP or even just engage in a little friendly SG fun in a PvP zone...

We could see turf wars between the two mafias.... between Circle of Thorns and Legacy of guys... etc... the occasional conga line of Luddites wandering through Atlas Park....

So, how about it? It doesn't seem to be that difficult a proposition and opens up the game to dynamic expansion.

 

Kind Regards,
Beta player from old Protector.

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by AlabasterKnight

[Lost Ninja]

Seems like a lot of work for little benefit.

 

You can already switch sides with ease, it's what 10-20 missions (not done this in a long time so I could be remembering this poorly) using the "legit" in game method. Or using the Gull in PD.

 

Updating maps so that villain groups appear in Paragon did happen (with CoV and then in later issues), I expect that it will happen going forward (assuming actual development continues).

 

So by making a rather large change you lose the need for the whole morality system. And unless you want to see open world PvP you gain very little, ease of access to Paragon for villains. Looking at the numbers playing villains I doubt that many heroes want to make the return trip.

 

I would agree about villains not being exactly villainous, major downside with the whole CoV concept, and I mentioned it several times during CoV beta... 😕

Edit:

In fact on re-reading my comment the only thing I'd suggest a long a similar vein would be to get rid of villains/rogue isles altogether. Paragon City finally act to stamp out that hive of villainy, Keep the physical zones, add a ton of CoH hero groups, as Paragon dispatches Arachnos. Some extra level appropriate zones to mission through would be fine. If the game were still being run as paid content you could even spin this as an advertising thing. have an issue where the zones are in contention (CoV zones), if more heroes than villains complete maps during the 3/6/9/12 months (whatever) then the zones become part of Paragon, if not they remain in contention... ((But I still don't really see the need for this either.))

Edited September 19, 2019 by Lost Ninja

[Display Name]

I agree with Alabaster Knight.  It doens't sound like a lot of work to add locations to the monorails/tunnels/whatever, unlocking the zones for all players and using "morality" in PvP zones only.

 

Meanwhile, ripping apart the villain zone and revamping it for hero content sounds like too much work.  And not something I even consider as a serious suggestion.

[Razor Cure]

9 hours ago, Lost Ninja said:

Paragon City finally act to stamp out that hive of villainy, Keep the physical zones, add a ton of CoH hero groups, as Paragon dispatches Arachnos

Leave my Villain zones alone, thanks. Keep your giant, bloated zones where a good half of it isnt actually used. Like Boomtown, perez, IP (missions just in the middles or far ends) Talos (in town, the odd mission on teh islands) PI (99.9 is all in the city, or portal corp) etc etc. Just because you dont want to be a vill, doesnt mean everyone feels that way.

Also, considering how basically useless the Freedom Phalanx is (I mean in game, not in the Lore. In game, in most missions with them as allies, most are gimped boss classes. I don't see them facing off vs whole mods. Same does go for Sig vills too), I really doubt they could do it anyway.

[MetaVileTerror]

If they ever develop the tech to have unique rules sets on different Shards within the same server cluster, then I'd support this proposal as a single Shard, while maintaining the status quo on the other Shards.

See how it does for a year or two.  If the demand is high enough, poll the community to see which Shard gets the treatment next, if any.

 

But as long as the server code doesn't facilitate this, I think we shouldn't risk up-ending so much of the players' experience.

[Megajoule]

/jranger

[Lost Ninja]

On 9/19/2019 at 4:57 AM, Display Name said:

I agree with Alabaster Knight.  It doens't sound like a lot of work to add locations to the monorails/tunnels/whatever, unlocking the zones for all players and using "morality" in PvP zones only.

 

Meanwhile, ripping apart the villain zone and revamping it for hero content sounds like too much work.  And not something I even consider as a serious suggestion.

You could read my original comment as:

Don't think it's a good idea but if you really think it must be done it'd be better to make RI into part of Paragon. Not I think it should be done. Because I don't.

 

I don't think it would take much work just to add new exit points to existing routes, I'd imagine that that sort of change is a Database change, you might (depending on how they're coded) need to change drones to not automatically target enemy faction players. But as you can already switch sides with impunity why is it needed? Other than, by the sound of it, forcing players into PvP zones.

[AlabasterKnight]

"You can switch sides with impunity."

 

That's my point. Why the charade and hassle?  If  you can just go switch and switch back, why?

Just simply connect the zone and create a faction flag.

The statement about open world PvP is dumb; I never said that - one would still need to go to an existing PvP zone.

But the whole morality arc stuff isn't truly being used either... and maybe some of the wrecked zones need to be rebuilt?

And maybe some new villain groups need to be introduced, etc.?

 

The point is about choice and shaking it up a bit.  Learn to let go.

Nothing in my original post constitutes anything that upends individual efforts or story, just a means of playing in all the zones without that artificial barrier that used to exist originally to create a new revenue stream for Paragon Studios.

 

Give me a compelling reason the game would fall apart given the current level of cross pollination of nearly everything else?

[MetaVileTerror]

I was thinking about this while at work today, and I kept remembering those times during City of Villains Beta when myself and others would accidentally spawn in Atlas Park or some other Hero Zone.  The Police Drones were flagged to target us as hostiles back then, and they'd insta-defeat us (as they do in PvP zones).

 

I also realized, we've got something like 9 Alignments in the game currently (possibly more, possibly less):  Unaligned*, Hero, Villain, Rogue, Vigilante, Loyalist - Responsibility, Loyalist - Power, Resistance - Warden, Resistance - Crusader.

Maybe we could add a few more?  Hero - PVP, Villain - PVP, etc.  These additional Alignments would allow players to visit hostile zones, and be targettable by NPCs such as Police Drones or Contacts, but only other players who choose the PVP Alignement would be at risk of being targetted by the invading player.  Maybe not the most narratively immersive option mixing non-PVP with PVP populations in a single zone, but it would allow for the PVP Shard to be more PVP'y without sacrificing the other Shards' content and experience.

 

Would also be fun to put on a show for other players in the Roleplay Shard by having little spats with explosive results in places like under the Atlas statue.  Remember the key part here:  Unless you're set to a PVP alignment, then you can't attack or be attacked by invading players.

[Heraclea]

9 hours ago, AlabasterKnight said:

But the whole morality arc stuff isn't truly being used either... and maybe some of the wrecked zones need to be rebuilt?

I do use the tips and morality arc stuff.  I enjoy them; most are from the period when the writing staff was exploring the possibilities of their engines.  Arachnos and Longbow are used relatively sparingly, thank the gods, and IDF do not appear at all AFAIK.  I do have a character I'm grooming as a vigilante using tips.  Yes, I know, I could get it done in one by going to Null the Gull, but that way doesn't get me XP and 40 merits. 

[AlabasterKnight]

Again, nothing I've suggested eliminates all the sacred cows people are worried about losing...

If you really want to go and prompt a contact for any arc, I've not suggested eliminating anything. 

Heraclea, if you want to do the Tip arc, hey, knock yourself out! Carpe Diem my friend!

 

Meta Vile: We really don't have more than one alignment anywhere until you reach a PvP zone, rather we have choices each player makes that generates a flag on the character profile and then based on that choice you made in the narrative, determines where you get to travel.... and where you get dumped into zone wise.

The police drone thing is interesting, but not applicable. I am sure the code can be universal so they ignore PCs and not NPCs, instead of hostile/aligned... the only thing I see happening is maybe some Controller or Mastermind pets get zorched if the devs mess up the code.

I'm suggesting that we separate that idea of alignments that create that artifical barrier to connecting all the zones... all from a simple added flag where you actually choose that 'alignment' which I think should be cleared up to be thought of as Factions. You'd still have to voluntarily flag for PvP... which we should leave in the existing PvP zones to not disrupt the idea of being able to roll as a PvE game which is what it has alwasy been best at being.... and leave it at that!

 

I mean wouldn't it be nifty if future development saw arcs that had you travel from Atlas Park to Mercy Island just because we can?
Are we really so closed minded to think this isn't easily possible and has no real downside?
This doesn't seem to be that hard.

 

[AlabasterKnight]

On 9/19/2019 at 1:27 PM, Megajoule said:

/jranger

Grow up. Reading some of your other participations, you seem much more intelligent than this dismissive BS. 
 

Edited September 22, 2019 by AlabasterKnight

[Steampunkette]

I'm just confused as to how this does anything "Dynamic" or has to do with content development...

 

I'm not -against- it. And I even have thoughts toward content development, myself, which would be bolstered by this change.

 

It just seems like a fairly large expenditure of development resources to not a lot of result. They'd have to reconfigure all the 'Alignment Logic' that exists in the game to just ignore players in general, outside of PvP zones, create a method of agnostic quest delivery (Which would have Heroes doing Villain content) or re-write the content on both sides of the line to fit each side and create an alignment split in how NPC contacts deliver missions to the players that talk to them...

 

All in all, retrofitting this concept would be a fairly massive undertaking unless the team went for a "Door you pass through determines your alignment" mechanic, which would be a 'simple' kludge that would erase your alignment progress every time you side-swapped (Resetting your hero/villain timer) with only Vigilantes and Rogues -possible- traversing the path between the two without losing their alignment...

 

Ultimately I think it would be better to leave the divide as it is and instead focus on the creation of new content that appeals to heroes in the Rogue Isles and villains in Paragon City, so that people more often use the 'Interim' alignments.

[AlabasterKnight]

"t just seems like a fairly large expenditure of development resources to not a lot of result. "

So, it's about the future, not the present.

It opens doors.

It immediately changes the climate of the place.

And I don't think it's difficult to code any of this at all. Time consuming maybe, difficult - a breeze for the talented folks.
There's no retrofitting.
You'll have to forgive me if I don't agree with your analysis on the benefits and methods.

Nice to see you again 🙂

 

[Megajoule]

You're basically asking for a rewrite and/or remapping of all of redside.

That's the sort of thing that takes Cryptic/Paragon, or another professional studio, months or years of work.

You want the Homecoming devs to undertake this task, on top of everything else on their plate... for free.

Because, in your opinion, "it doesn't seem that difficult".

 

My prior response was chosen to give this proposal all the consideration I believe it deserves.  Here it is again, de-memeified:

No.

[Steampunkette]

5 minutes ago, AlabasterKnight said:

"t just seems like a fairly large expenditure of development resources to not a lot of result. "

So, it's about the future, not the present.

It opens doors.

It immediately changes the climate of the place.

And I don't think it's difficult to code any of this at all. Time consuming maybe, difficult - a breeze for the talented folks.
There's no retrofitting.
You'll have to forgive me if I don't agree with your analysis on the benefits and methods.

Nice to see you again 🙂

 

I've been around, JB! Still on Skype and Discord.

 

The reason I say it could be difficult is because Villains exist in Paragon as hostile entities. That's why the people who during the alpha/beta went to AP by glitch got zapped by the drones. That sort of divide is coded into the basics of the character, something Cryptic felt strongly enough about to make a real 'Thing' rather than just letting all player characters be 'Player Characters' and the Villain/Hero tag only determine where they started, which doors they could open, and what hospital they rezzed to in cross-faction and PvP zones.

 

Honestly, that would've been -way- easier than building in the faction mechanics they eventually developed!

 

It kind of makes me wonder whether or not the Devs initially intended for open world PvP to just be a thing that happened, where heroes and villains ran the same streets and killed each other pell-mell unless there was a security drone on hand to end the fight instantly.

 

 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

3 hours ago, Megajoule said:

You're basically asking for a rewrite and/or remapping of all of redside.

That's the sort of thing that takes Cryptic/Paragon, or another professional studio, months or years of work.

You want the Homecoming devs to undertake this task, on top of everything else on their plate... for free.

Because, in your opinion, "it doesn't seem that difficult".

 

My prior response was chosen to give this proposal all the consideration I believe it deserves.  Here it is again, de-memeified:

No.

Your actually on my ignore list for your typical trash talking attitude, but in my limited experience using game mods etc and now and then needing to rip into their code to tweak something, zone to zone connections are actually pretty easy typically, least wise they seem so in games from old never winter nights to the elder scroll games all zone connections are basically just a couple tags and pretty easy to change.

 

Id imagine just adding everything to the monorail, ferry, oportal, and long range teleport might be a tad time consuming but I doubt it would be hard. I suspect the basically opening up the whole game world to all players aspect would be the bigger challenge but then again it kind of is for rogue and vigilante players. at least travel wise if not npc access wise.

[Steampunkette]

9 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Your actually on my ignore list for your typical trash talking attitude, but in my limited experience using game mods etc and now and then needing to rip into their code to tweak something, zone to zone connections are actually pretty easy typically, least wise they seem so in games from old never winter nights to the elder scroll games all zone connections are basically just a couple tags and pretty easy to change.

 

Id imagine just adding everything to the monorail, ferry, oportal, and long range teleport might be a tad time consuming but I doubt it would be hard. I suspect the basically opening up the whole game world to all players aspect would be the bigger challenge but then again it kind of is for rogue and vigilante players. at least travel wise if not npc access wise.

Connecting the doors? Easy!

 

But in Hero Zones, the PPD Drones one-shot Villains. They won't shoot Rogues or Vigilantes. But Villains? Ganked.

 

So there's tagging issues to take into consideration for the players themselves. Those Tags have also been tied to a Reward Scheme in the form of Tip Missions and the four Alignment Powers.

 

You could flip someone's flag the second they jumped on the Port Oakes Ferry and stepped out into Skyway City... But that means they lose their power or progress towards that power or any tips toward alignment change. They also can't contact any of their Redside Contacts 'cause they're tagged as Heroes, so progress on those arcs would be paused and all. And they wouldn't be able to abandon those missions 'cause they couldn't speak to their contact about it.

 

Also they'd show to everyone else as "Heroes" when highlighted, even in contested zones or co-op zones, and would need to transition back to redside -then- go to the co-op/contested zones to be flagged as a Villain, again. Either a secondary contextual tag would need to be made for "Gray" alignments, or else everyone would be H/V no exceptions the second they passed through the tram/boat.

 

Alternatively you could rewrite all the "Hero/Villain" barriers to transport, inside NPC AI, and then change the settings for them as regards to PvP and Targeting in different zones, and then hem and haw over whether you want to lock them out of missions 'cause they're Heroes who shouldn't be working for Arachnos or Villains who shouldn't be protecting Faultline Dam from Vahzilok.

 

Point is, you're misrepresenting a lot of work as something really simple and small.

[AlabasterKnight]

"Point is, you're misrepresenting a lot of work as something really simple and small."

No, the work itself isn't the big part, it's the critical thinking behind determining the best way to do it.
See now, It seems to me you're doing just fine theorizing the how with an open mind, and you're just one person who isn't the dev behind the code, neither the person who would do the actual work, nor the person who can best discern how to do it minimally or least invasively. I do understand it's not a switch flip.
I am not dismissing the possibility that there's a lot to account for in formulating a plan, but you'll never convince me that when all is said and done, that the volume would be too much work to be worth the effort.

 

What's the point in having a suggestion board if everything suggested is low hanging fruit?

[Steampunkette]

Just now, AlabasterKnight said:

"Point is, you're misrepresenting a lot of work as something really simple and small."

No, the work itself isn't the big part, it's the critical thinking behind determining the best way to do it.
See now, It seems to me you're doing just fine theorizing the how with an open mind, and you're just one person who isn't the dev behind the code, neither the person who would do the actual work, nor the person who can best discern how to do it minimally or least invasively. I do understand it's not a switch flip.
I am not dismissing the possibility that there's a lot to account for in formulating a plan, but you'll never convince me that when all is said and done, that the volume would be too much work to be worth the effort.

 

What's the point in having a suggestion board if everything suggested is low hanging fruit?

What is the result of the effort, exactly? Opening up both sides to heroes and villains to what end?

 

For hypothetical future content that only Heroes can do in the Rogue Isles (Rather than Vigilantes, Rogues, or Villains)? That's a big boulder to push based on what I've seen, for a potential future gain, but nothing in the interim.

 

And yeah. I'm ot part of the Dev Team. Which means I'm just as likely to be lowballing the endeavor as highballing it. Except for one curveball neither of us have mentioned: The code is a plate of Spaghetti. So on top of all the stuff I've pointed out (Designing and implementing the systems, repairing the aggro issues, changing the way Contacts work, which is a -very- basic part of the game's engine might I add...) you've also got to dig through 7 years of layered code strung together and held together with hope and bailing wire.

 

 

Even without being certain of the amount of time-investment required (Maybe I am overestimating the work involved) I'd -still- ask you to show me the expected rewards of changing the system before I engaged in changing anything. Heroes can already go Redside, as it is.

 

 

There's already  a revolving door. Tell me why we should tear down the wall around it... especially if that wall has any chance of being Load-Bearing.

 

[Lost Ninja]

On 9/20/2019 at 6:50 PM, AlabasterKnight said:

"You can switch sides with impunity."

 

That's my point. Why the charade and hassle?  If  you can just go switch and switch back, why?

Just simply connect the zone and create a faction flag.

The statement about open world PvP is dumb; I never said that - one would still need to go to an existing PvP zone.

But the whole morality arc stuff isn't truly being used either... and maybe some of the wrecked zones need to be rebuilt?

And maybe some new villain groups need to be introduced, etc.?

 

The point is about choice and shaking it up a bit.  Learn to let go.

Nothing in my original post constitutes anything that upends individual efforts or story, just a means of playing in all the zones without that artificial barrier that used to exist originally to create a new revenue stream for Paragon Studios.

 

Give me a compelling reason the game would fall apart given the current level of cross pollination of nearly everything else?

The guy I quoted suggested moving morality missions into the PvP zones (I'm unsure why).

 

If as you say all that you want to see is Villains in all zones (because lets be fair Heroes certainly don't seem to care for Villain zones), your job is to make a compelling argument for it. What benefit does it give? The benefits you've already mentioned are already there, albeit in a somewhat different format.

 

Nothing in my original post constitutes anything that upends individual efforts or story, just a means of playing in all the zones without that artificial barrier that used to exist originally to create a new revenue stream for Paragon Studios.

If whichever dev it was that released CoV (I think it was still Cryptic, but could be wrong) had actually listened to what (some of) the beta testers of CoV had actually said, then there would already but something much the way you describe linking CoH and CoV. I'm not against the idea because it changes things but because it's seems pointless to add it now when it is unneeded.