Scrapper Melee Primary Testing: "Standard" environment

[Infinitum]

36 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

@Infinitum, is skipping DS normal for all TW builds especially at the SO level? I went into this test trying to use all powers as often as possible as no set except arguably claws has low tier attacks that are not beneficial to throw in pre IO / outside bonuses. Arguing that a set is not as good if you up and skip a power is a bit.... odd? I even tried "bad" attacks like boggle to see if itd have an impact, but at the "base" level on SOs I think DS and staff's cone parries offer a lot to be passed over until recharge and +def from IOs come in.

 

27 sec faster is also significant when you factor in that nearly every other gap between sets is single digits.

 

I do think as attack chains get fleshed and certain attacks get dropped, such as DS, it will become more interesting to see what changes tho!

Well thats my point trying powers like boggle probably hurt your psy numbers.

 

With TW you knew what it would take from the beginning to get the best number - not saying its rigged or that TW isn't great - but that you learned that at the beginning how to beat the test with it while the other sets didnt have that luxury.

 

That explains some of the wild time swings with the other sets because your TW test was unusually static given other tests on other sets even with other people.  If you factor in just the best times from spines, war mace, and even rad they are all right there together.

 

What makes TW so much more consistent? And can the sets with equally good times be made to be that consistent as well?

[Infinitum]

25 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

I agree that this is worth noting. When people say TW is strong, it's not because Defensive Sweep allows you to herd with low-end builds. The fact that TW is in front right now says more about the structure of our test than about the set, IMO. Without DS I was getting times a bit under 6:00, roughly middle of the pack.

 

So on the one hand, it may stand to gain less from IOs in our test because it's already durable enough. On the other hand, conventional wisdom is that TW scales really well with IOs because it's so limited by endurance and recharge. I'm curious to see whether the gap closes.

I almost want to run the test with TW myself to see how I would do, but I'm not a very good TW player so that almost invalidates me from the start. lol. But if you are looking for numbers what inexperience could get you on this test it could be valid.

 

I think TW with IOs and hasten will get exponentially better, but at that point I think powers like DS and TS will slow it down.

[Sniktch]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I find that I must respectfully disagree. My current build is pushing ~186% global recharge and it allows for very tight attack chains on a scrapper. Brute a bit less because the base recharge on spin and shockwave are higher. ST chain is Followup, Focus, Slash, repeat which means a triplestack of Fu on Focus.
For tight crowds, the chain becomes Fu, Focus, Spin. With a CFKD in Spin, mitigation in the middle of a pack goes up.

For really large groups, or being at the edge of a group so Sw can come into play with its KB turned into KD, it's Fu, Spin, Sw, repeat. AoE output at that point is pretty freaking huge.

There's a reason that claws is hanging with the other big boys in the farming thread.

This said... I have been tempted to totally rework the build into a proc monster just to see what, if anything, might change. I really should spend some time on the test server.

I'll defer to your experience with Claws - I still recall your demo after the first animation pass on Claws when you managed to nearly solo a pylon on an SO build.  And it's likely my experience with Claws almost entirely on Stalkers who have neither Follow-Up nor Spin to leverage in mobs influences my perception.

[Galaxy Brain]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Well thats my point trying powers like boggle probably hurt your psy numbers.

TBF, I was using it between mobs when other things were recharging or before engagement. But another round where I "mulligan" some runs without it could be good.

 

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

With TW you knew what it would take from the beginning to get the best number - not saying its rigged or that TW isn't great - but that you learned that at the beginning how to beat the test with it while the other sets didnt have that luxury.

This is a great point. As I did the tests.... 190 times (damn lol), I inevitably must have gotten better as I went in terms of navigation and knowing how to best round mobs up / etc, that and there being either transferable skills based on certain sets or even just optimizing a certain set as I played it more and more. Going back and "mulliganing" maybe the bottom 5 runs may be useful to kind of fight that, but then what made those runs slow may not have been skill so much as "I missed a lot" or "those dang runners...", or factors such as Boss vs Minion spawns depending on the set (Spines, Elec, Rad)

 

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

That explains some of the wild time swings with the other sets because your TW test was unusually static given other tests on other sets even with other people.  If you factor in just the best times from spines, war mace, and even rad they are all right there together.

 

What makes TW so much more consistent? And can the sets with equally good times be made to be that consistent as well?

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

I almost want to run the test with TW myself to see how I would do, but I'm not a very good TW player so that almost invalidates me from the start. lol. But if you are looking for numbers what inexperience could get you on this test it could be valid.

 

I think TW with IOs and hasten will get exponentially better, but at that point I think powers like DS and TS will slow it down.

As I mentioned above, X factors such as runners, misses (hurts ST far more), and the split some sets have in their AoE vs ST output has a lot to do with how the runs performed. For example with Spines, my worst run was when I had 2-3 extra boss spawns vs my best run which had no extra boss spawns + ample minion spawns. I think what made TW so consistent for me was that there was no difference in speed between the ST and AoE capability of the set, and it could chain knockdowns or flat out kill fast enough to negate runners like Spines and Ice could.

 

I think it would be great for you to try TW! I went into Psy blind, and you can see the results for yourself 😛 I think having "high exp vs fresh exp" runs would be a valid data point.

 

 

 

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

This did inspire me to look into the BEST vs WORST times specifically

 

OVERALL: 

           

 

Top 6 Best: Spines, TW, WM, Rad, Claws, Ice

Top 6 Worst: TW, Staff, Katana, Claws, Psy, STJ

 

TW and Claws both being in the top 3rd of sets for both top and "worst" times is intriguing. 

 

 

Top 6 most consistent: Katana, STJ, Savage, Staff, Kinetic, Dark

Bottom 6 least consistent: BS, Rad, Elec, Spines, Ice, WM

 

Despite TW and Claws being in the top 1/3 of the other lists, neither boast a <1:00 difference in timing. Katana, Staff and STJ are all super solid, and it shows that having a good "worst time" may be indicative of decent balance?

 

Of the least consistent times, Rad/Elec/Spines all make sense due to the very AoE vs ST nature of those sets. Though BS/Ice/WM are interesting. WM has the most runs of any set so that could just be player difference, but BS and Ice are a bit 🤔 BS especially as it should be consistent like Katana!

 

PERSONAL: 

    

 

Top 6 Best: Spines, TW, WM, Rad, Claws, Ice

Top 6 Worst: TW, Spines, Staff, Katana, WM, Claws

 

Spines and WM join TW and Claws for me

 

 

Top 6 most consistent: Katana, STJ, Staff, Savage, TW, Kinetic

Bottom 6 least consistent: Ice, Spines, WM, BS, Rad, Elec

 

TW joins the pack on my personal consistency list, and the least consistent mirrors the overall. Ice may be due to the nature of it's AoE attacks / Ice Patch's small size though. BS I have no idea.

 

 

 

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

This did inspire me to look into the BEST vs WORST times specifically

 

OVERALL: 

           

 

Top 6 Best: Spines, TW, WM, Rad, Claws, Ice

Top 6 Worst: TW, Staff, Katana, Claws, Psy, STJ

 

TW and Claws both being in the top 3rd of sets for both top and "worst" times is intriguing. 

 

 

Top 6 most consistent: Katana, STJ, Savage, Staff, Kinetic, Dark

Bottom 6 least consistent: BS, Rad, Elec, Spines, Ice, WM

 

Despite TW and Claws being in the top 1/3 of the other lists, neither boast a <1:00 difference in timing. Katana, Staff and STJ are all super solid, and it shows that having a good "worst time" may be indicative of decent balance?

 

Of the least consistent times, Rad/Elec/Spines all make sense due to the very AoE vs ST nature of those sets. Though BS/Ice/WM are interesting. WM has the most runs of any set so that could just be player difference, but BS and Ice are a bit 🤔 BS especially as it should be consistent like Katana!

 

PERSONAL: 

    

 

Top 6 Best: Spines, TW, WM, Rad, Claws, Ice

Top 6 Worst: TW, Spines, Staff, Katana, WM, Claws

 

Spines and WM join TW and Claws for me

 

 

Top 6 most consistent: Katana, STJ, Staff, Savage, TW, Kinetic

Bottom 6 least consistent: Ice, Spines, WM, BS, Rad, Elec

 

TW joins the pack on my personal consistency list, and the least consistent mirrors the overall. Ice may be due to the nature of it's AoE attacks / Ice Patch's small size though. BS I have no idea.

 

 

 

Would you mind if i tested a few more of these sets just so you can have more data points - as i get time of course?  if you think its unnecessary i wont do it but if you want the data points i dont mind.

[Galaxy Brain]

Definitely! I am only one data point of course, the more people who join in the better picture we get.

[Sir Myshkin]

That time for Kinetic Melee just didn't sit well with me. Didn't compute, felt too long, had to see for myself.

 

• 6:20
• 6:55 < -- Runner
• 6:42
• 5:57 < -- Perfect scenario of line up through the mission I've seen yet.
• 6:15
• 7:00 < -- Runner

Maybe chock that up to an extreme amount of experience with Kinetic Melee and knowing what each sliver is worth on my attack bar, but I didn't shy away from using Repulsion Torrent, and in fact used it the same way I did Shockwave at times by jumping above the mob and firing it down to minimize the KB effect. There's also Disorients and KD's in the first three attacks so I could easily share those through the mob to mitigate incoming attacks alongside Burst's KD effect. Only use CS on a Lieut/Boss at full health, hit a target, tab to the next, hit, tab, hit, tab, never waste a finishing blow on a mob unless it's the last >3, use Burst to kill as much as possible. I also didn't waste effort on trying to save CS for a full-siphon, and avoid (as much as possible) wasting effort on Focused Burst by tagging stragglers (mobs that start running around the spawn instead of planting) with a Disorient/KD if possible.

[Galaxy Brain]

Great times! Unfortunately, KM is still on the slower end but you bumped it up a good bit

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

If we just use @Sir Myshkin's time, it goes up above both Elec and Fire

Edited October 14, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Cawshun]

On 10/13/2019 at 10:16 AM, Infinitum said:

I think it's funny how most people don't take or use DS on TW but it saved the day for it here.  Without that knowledge first and foremost would the TW times have been as static?  Because at first they weren't - it was still good but - not even close and barely better than my psy times.

Eh, before you reach defense cap DS is worth taking, which is a scenario of this test. The lack of use of it initially was probably an oversight and likely an underestimation of the value defense would have on such a test (Especially since initially the test wasn't going to take in to account survivability.) DS is part of the kit, and you can't disregard it just because it's not worth taking when IOd out. Without hasten and IOs there's also a lack of recharge, which makes an additional AoE more valuable as well. I would say it is an important survivability tool for TW, but I wouldn't say it was the sole factor that made TW perform so well. There are multiple other kits that have a similar ability and none of them reached the same speeds as TW did. Clearly there is something else about TW that is pushing it further.

Also, @Hopeling's average time not using DS was 5:41. Katana, utilizing its +def ability, also is at 5:41, and Staff utilizing its +def is at 5:40.  Is it really okay for a set that's not utilizing its defensive ability to run even with those that are in a scenario where survivability is important? I think it says a lot that TW can pull even with "similar" kits without utilizing all of the tools at its disposal while those other kits are.

[Infinitum]

42 minutes ago, Cawshun said:

Eh, before you reach defense cap DS is worth taking, which is a scenario of this test. The lack of use of it initially was probably an oversight and likely an underestimation of the value defense would have on such a test (Especially since initially the test wasn't going to take in to account survivability.) DS is part of the kit, and you can't disregard it just because it's not worth taking when IOd out. Without hasten and IOs there's also a lack of recharge, which makes an additional AoE more valuable as well. I would say it is an important survivability tool for TW, but I wouldn't say it was the sole factor that made TW perform so well. There are multiple other kits that have a similar ability and none of them reached the same speeds as TW did. Clearly there is something else about TW that is pushing it further.

Also, @Hopeling's average time not using DS was 5:41. Katana, utilizing its +def ability, also is at 5:41, and Staff utilizing its +def is at 5:40.  Is it really okay for a set that's not utilizing its defensive ability to run even with those that are in a scenario where survivability is important? I think it says a lot that TW can pull even with "similar" kits without utilizing all of the tools at its disposal while those other kits are.

No idea I haven't personally tested it.

 

I was just making an observation how static the TW times were compared to the others, and how the best performance wasn't had until DS was used in the chain.

 

Normally from what I understand DS isn't a more commonly chosen power on TW.

[Cawshun]

15 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I was just making an observation how static the TW times were compared to the others, and how the best performance wasn't had until DS was used in the chain.

TW doesn't really have a weakness between AoE and single target, so the way mobs spawn will have less of an impact on overall performance. DS both allows more mobs to be pulled and adds to the AoE damage due to lack of recharge. I don't know the exact threshold of recharge needed to make DS a damage loss in AoE, but just hasten might be close enough, which could be why it's less commonly seen. That or maybe the ability is just underestimated because the damage is lower than the other cones.

 

If you look at @Galaxy Brain's ranking page on the spreadsheet, they are organized by the difference between the best and worst time. TW is 5th of 19 sets (74th percentile) in terms difference of highest and lowest times. There are about six sets that had similar difference in times as TW. That's purely Galaxy's runs, so it's just off of his skill. Looking at the consolidated rankings, TW is tied with Psy melee and Firey melee at a difference of 1:08 (47th percentile), and there are 7 sets that were more consistent. Based on the data, I wouldn't say that TW times were particularly more static than other sets.

 

[Haijinx]

TW is good, but its not lapping the other good sets yet.  Will be nice to see the IO performance.

 

I'm curious how the scrapper ATOs change things when you can have chained fast animating AOEs.  

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Cawshun said:

TW doesn't really have a weakness between AoE and single target, so the way mobs spawn will have less of an impact on overall performance. DS both allows more mobs to be pulled and adds to the AoE damage due to lack of recharge. I don't know the exact threshold of recharge needed to make DS a damage loss in AoE, but just hasten might be close enough, which could be why it's less commonly seen. That or maybe the ability is just underestimated because the damage is lower than the other cones.

 

If you look at @Galaxy Brain's ranking page on the spreadsheet, they are organized by the difference between the best and worst time. TW is 5th of 19 sets (74th percentile) in terms difference of highest and lowest times. There are about six sets that had similar difference in times as TW. That's purely Galaxy's runs, so it's just off of his skill. Looking at the consolidated rankings, TW is tied with Psy melee and Firey melee at a difference of 1:08 (47th percentile), and there are 7 sets that were more consistent. Based on the data, I wouldn't say that TW times were particularly more static than other sets.

 

I was referring to galaxy brains tw runs being pretty static, again just an observation.

 

More of a compliment than anything because it's hard to keep things that static in there, when I had runners it ate my time up.

 

I think part of it was he learned the patterns and layout really well and was skilled enough to perfect how to control the map.

 

After doing it 10 times per run I would imagine he could do it in his sleep.

 

But even so TW changed drastically when a powet that many dont take was used in this test, again just an observation.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Infinitum

[Galaxy Brain]

I do want to touch on the test as a whole real quick. 

 

Survival was a decent factor for a lot of set's performances. WP can let you sustain damage and recover quickly, but it has limitations even with these basic enemies where you can get pummeled to death pretty easily if you just stood in a group. Even a smaller group can be dangerous due to how RTTC scales. Several sets like Savage and Fire had real trouble with certain groups since they lacked either any mitigation besides "kill them first", or they had unreliable mitigation like Battle Axe where most attacks only had a chance to Knockdown / stun / etc.

 

Sets with recorded DNF:

1. Battle Axe - 2 Deaths, KD did not proc in time to prevent death
2. Dark Melee - 2 Deaths, vs a ST you are invulnerable but the lack of AoE damage and mitigation is very risky when tackling groups
3. Dual Blades - 2 Deaths, unlike other sets it had guaranteed Knockdown mitigation but the lengthy animations meant missing those leaves you open to several attacks.
4. Elec Melee - 2 Deaths, mitigation is tied to very slow powers, or ones that scatter the mob everywhere and then slows you down considerably
5. Fire Melee - 2 Deaths, no mitigation aside from well.. killing with fire. Several moments where kiting and pausing needed to happen
6. Martial Arts - 2 Deaths, the % chance to mitigate enemies is a gamble as always, making it almost all ST attacks to do this is even riskier
7. Rad Melee - 4 Deaths! Lack of guaranteed soft control is noticeable. The heal relying on Contamination is funky.
8. Savage Melee - 2 Deaths, no real mitigation outside of a ST knockdown with RNG

 

These are all factors to consider for how hard some of these sets could be pushed if by themselves. The meta of the tests has leaned to herding up enemies yes, but that also requires player skill in order to navigate and round enemies up effectively. I would also argue that it can better emulate a team environment as the enemies moving about / deciding to run gives more chaos into the mix that other players could provide.

 

The test as is I think still stands true as a solid simulation of your average mission. Though, it would be interesting to maybe add in some more X factors like a mob or two with debuffs or separate powers to deal with that may make herding not as profitable?

Edited October 14, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Galaxy Brain]

I'm going to see if I can mulligan run a couple sets this week for better times.

 

Also, going by @Sir Myshkin's willpower slotting for IOs on a prior page I'll start a few comparison runs too. I think going right to high end with a decked out WP and such may prove more impactful for some of the sets where survival was the issue, and bring into question the sets that had ample survival as a plus.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Galaxy Brain]

Don't mean to triple post, but after talking with @Hopeling I have added in the Standard Deviation to the columns:

             

 

 

SPREAD = The "accuracy" of the Average. The smaller the spread, the more accurate our Average time is for the runs.

 

SD (Standard) DEVIATION = Shows the consistency of the runs, similar to the difference between the Best and Worst times but averaged across all runs. The smaller the Deviation, the more consistent the sets.

 

 

 

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Don't mean to triple post, but after talking with @Hopeling I have added in the Standard Deviation to the columns:

             

 

 

SPREAD = The "accuracy" of the Average. The smaller the spread, the more accurate our Average time is for the runs.

 

SD (Standard) DEVIATION = Shows the consistency of the runs, similar to the difference between the Best and Worst times but averaged across all runs. The smaller the Deviation, the more consistent the sets.

 

 

 

I applaud the work you are putting into this.  Sincerely.

[Infinitum]

Will it be possible, or prudent to reconcile this test from this to IO testing or even future testing with different secondaries?

 

And if so how would you do that ?

 

And also would that give you the prime average you are looking for?

Edited October 15, 2019 by Infinitum

[Galaxy Brain]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Will it be possible, or prudent to reconcile this test from this to IO testing or even future testing with different secondaries?

 

And if so how would you do that ?

 

And also would that give you the prime average you are looking for?

 

The purpose of this was to get a "baseline" for the primaries, so ideally this would be the measuring stick to compare further tests on 🙂

 

The purpose of using /WP and SO's was to us an armor that was not intrusive to the primary so we could isolate it's performance as much as possible. On SO's, it provides 6.1% Smashing Def + -4.5% ToHit to foes melee range (effectively 10.6% def), 35% Smashing Resists, and a bunch of Regen as foes gather round. So, you're hit about 39% of the time, and when you're hit you only take 65% of the damage. Effectively 74.65% damage mitigation when averaged out.

 

Lets factor in the Myshkin build:

 

On 10/9/2019 at 6:48 PM, Sir Myshkin said:

Awesome Myshkin Build

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Hero Plan by Hero Hero Designer 2.23
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: War Mace
Secondary Power Set: Willpower
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Pulverize -- KntCmb-Acc/Dmg(A), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx(5), KntCmb-Dmg/Rchg(34), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg(36), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36)
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(3), UnbGrd-Max HP%(5)
Level 2: Mind Over Body -- Ags-ResDam(A), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(7), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(7), Ags-Psi/Status(9), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(21)
Level 4: Fast Healing -- Mrc-Rcvry+(A), Prv-Absorb%(9)
Level 6: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 8: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(13), RedFrt-Def(13), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(27), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(33), RedFrt-EndRdx(33)
Level 10: Indomitable Will -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(11), Ksm-ToHit+(11)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Tough -- RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctArm-ResDam(15), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(15), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(17)
Level 16: Rise to the Challenge -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(17), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(19), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(19), Pnc-Heal(21)
Level 18: Weave -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(23), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(23), Rct-Def/Rchg(25), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Rct-ResDam%(27)
Level 20: Quick Recovery -- PrfShf-EndMod(A)
Level 22: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(33)
Level 24: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-Travel(A), BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx(42), BlsoftheZ-ResKB(46)
Level 26: Jawbreaker -- SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg(A), SprScrStr-Dmg/Rchg(39), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), SprScrStr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), SprScrStr-Rchg/+Crit(42)
Level 28: Heightened Senses -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(29), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(29), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(31), RedFrt-Def(31), RedFrt-EndRdx(31)
Level 30: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(36), GssSynFr--Build%(50)
Level 32: Clobber -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(37), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(39), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(39)
Level 35: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 38: Whirling Mace -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(42), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 41: Physical Perfection -- RgnTss-Regen+(A)
Level 44: Shatter -- Erd-Dmg(A), Erd-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Erd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), ClvBlo-Acc/Dmg(45), ClvBlo-Dmg/EndRdx(46), ClvBlo-Dmg/Rchg(46)
Level 47: Crowd Control -- Erd-Dmg(A), Erd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48), Erd-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), ClvBlo-Acc/Dmg(48), ClvBlo-Dmg/EndRdx(50), ClvBlo-Dmg/Rchg(50)
Level 49: Strength of Will -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(34)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(3)
------------

 

 

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
		|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
		|MxDz;1439;669;1338;HEX;|
		|78DA6594494F13611CC6DF69A7620BA554A085D28516596B4B2B78D544511381A4D|
		|A04DC2236ED2B34A974D2922847BF81A2C68BDBC9C48B1FC4F5AE7E0113595C2E1E|
		|4CFD779E874AD209E437F3FCF777E9E2DDB9AE37E7EF9D5246F7994AA15E5FC9176|
		|B05CBD235D76261B55C54CDA743FE83FBFACAA2AE689D5E2EC85BA1A8432D7D4EDF|
		|D2EB75B1942B15AB7A47D7943757AD56D2E7CAAB6B1BE5F5559FFDB5A00B255DABA|
		|F95ADAEFD6F4B8C1EFB236F695DF29FB5CAC5F4E96A69530AD437746D7340EA8F35|
		|7B08283E0D97CA0912A6322F82F14B641E1CB929CC0A4BE0527308C38E75A8A0BC4|
		|44CE5F8EDB46DE61F70597C0CF898C6AC616B873264163C7C02EC9B012F4B8C1331|
		|86F382BC8C8BCF36F2196273A15FE56AC8A3FCA274C0DBD5D18F0C5D1EB21B0C758|
		|2C35ED2075E915837277033D6338F4A9EBFCA9E28203E9DF0519DF4718AE685E6F4|
		|46D16177828C813D71F0AAF8FAEC256898BE3072F744C023513206F60D73F524C6C|
		|F99FC3BD002BBE41E38F083FC09867E81D724B697FDF66E396C2D215A3F56CDE84F|
		|3677CFAD86C911B1056173043FC37FF20B98FA0A0EC82919E429197C8B3A63EFC0F|
		|1F7E407F22338F909BC2EF98738CB10D72FCCFD09735FA2DC9728F72BCAFD1994BA|
		|11F61649F2F491D9D7E82D243E31F616BB6FDADAD107E416F9101C7B443E06F3D26|
		|282A729C1BC61C9370ACD1C7D0ABFC967E0D473F205F9127CE5556A826B3E711237|
		|21227992EC2BF9CD616BC7BE93DB64053553B7C975302AB169C6A6193BCD9869E69|
		|8666C96B159C6DE90F5CE70A6CC71EC41D86CDD72F96BDE9A98D9BABB8DA9366BA6|
		|4DC9B629336DCA6C9BB2D0A6E44C9615C5B015778FDC76288D6D4FEBD7421929CCB|
		|3FB5F338C38E6892FE17CEC1CF49F80FFDE417F9E7FC713B059B0F10FDE8BDCA4|
		|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

 

 

 

With this IO spread, the mitigation would jump to 98.5% as you cap S/L resist, and with the -ToHit you get effectively 43.95% Smashing Defense. This is not including the procs / Recharge (66.3% without Hasten) and other perks like +Acc/ToHit, a bit of damage, etc. For the sets that had +Mitigation as an advantage, and those that lacked it as a disadvantage this will be a huge game changer.

 

Eyeballing it, e build's IO spread could easily be replicated by most all melee sets as well making for a decent starting point for the high-end. On the lower-end, I wonder if runs with just minimal "patch that up" style enhancements like the KD proc or such would have a big impact?

 

Runs on the IO's should be much easier as you'd be much more efficient, its just a matter of comparing the times to their SO counterparts as well as the comparative ranking.

 

 

 

 

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

The purpose of this was to get a "baseline" for the primaries, so ideally this would be the measuring stick to compare further tests on 🙂

 

The purpose of using /WP and SO's was to us an armor that was not intrusive to the primary so we could isolate it's performance as much as possible. On SO's, it provides 6.1% Smashing Def + -4.5% ToHit to foes melee range (effectively 10.6% def), 35% Smashing Resists, and a bunch of Regen as foes gather round. So, you're hit about 39% of the time, and when you're hit you only take 65% of the damage. Effectively 74.65% damage mitigation when averaged out.

 

Lets factor in the Myshkin build:

 

 

 

 

With this IO spread, the mitigation would jump to 98.5% as you cap S/L resist, and with the -ToHit you get effectively 43.95% Smashing Defense. This is not including the procs / Recharge (66.3% without Hasten) and other perks like +Acc/ToHit, a bit of damage, etc. For the sets that had +Mitigation as an advantage, and those that lacked it as a disadvantage this will be a huge game changer.

 

Eyeballing it, e build's IO spread could easily be replicated by most all melee sets as well making for a decent starting point for the high-end. On the lower-end, I wonder if runs with just minimal "patch that up" style enhancements like the KD proc or such would have a big impact?

 

Runs on the IO's should be much easier as you'd be much more efficient, its just a matter of comparing the times to their SO counterparts as well as the comparative ranking.

 

 

 

 

I think other secondaries like invul and SR should be baselined also to expand on it just to see what more endurance demanding sets would do to the various primaries.  Im going to put together a few builds on that and do that too as soon as i get a day off.

[Galaxy Brain]

I do think that they'd be slower.... SR especially as it'd be luck based with no HP recovery. Invuln would probably be safer and more consistent with +Acc from Invincibility... worth a shot 🙂

 

Also, anyone know the easiest way to load up IO's on Pineapple?

[Haijinx]

27 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I do think that they'd be slower.... SR especially as it'd be luck based with no HP recovery. Invuln would probably be safer and more consistent with +Acc from Invincibility... worth a shot 🙂

 

Also, anyone know the easiest way to load up IO's on Pineapple?

Depends on the build I guess.  Both of those have much stronger T9s than WP.  Which will matter a lot on SOs.  

 

As long as you timed it well ..

[Galaxy Brain]

35 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Depends on the build I guess.  Both of those have much stronger T9s than WP.  Which will matter a lot on SOs.  

 

As long as you timed it well ..

Even on SO's Armor T9s are kinda booty 😕

[Haijinx]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

Even on SO's Armor T9s are kinda booty 😕

Well you could run say 3 minutes .. then hit it. 

 

SR would suddenly become softcapped to everything with great end recovery and huge run speed buff.

 

Invul with unstoppable up could herd perhaps.