How to scare away new players.

[Radiaria]

On 9/21/2019 at 5:45 PM, AurianArchive said:

The "Hidden Server" had a number of different methods for handling entirely new players to the game that may not be practical for Homecoming.

For starters as the "Hidden Server" was based on a Debian-Style Invite Process and as multiple accounts were verboten it was feasible to grant each new unique Global Account 2 billion inf. The Hidden Devs also reworked the merit-per-time rewards, changed the drop-rates, and routinely ran "Purple Rain" events with increased purple drop rates. The online GM's would also, at first, routinely run monster-mashes where the GM would spawn mobs or enemies with badge attachments to simply the process of pursuing accolade badges. While ambush farming was prohibited due to the processor-intensive nature of the game's ambush sub systems, the Hidden Devs did tolerate passive farming. Another change that was nerfed on the Hidden Server and thus never experienced here were unlimited Level 50 re-dings. 

The result was that even completely new players to the game, likely the children or spouses of original players, could afford to make their dream build and obtain otherwise PITA badges. 

 

Generally speaking, a new player could run up a decent fire-farmer, kit them out fairly well with their influence grant, then just go to town on Level 50 re-dings to gain the merit rewards to enhance up subsequent builds that the player would be interested in. 

 

I'd also note that the atmosphere on the "Hidden Server" was different than that of Homecoming (or other derivative servers). It was not unusual for the power-farmers to broadcast an open invitation for a power level. 

 

Here? From what I've seen in broadcast and global channel chats, it seems to be a return of the Live-server behavior. Nobody announces a power-leveling session for new players, and in some cases I got the distinct impression that if a player can't contribute to a farm they aren't welcome.  

 

I don't have any good ideas on how to re-implement some of the steps the "Hidden Server" took to make it easier for new players to get into the game. I can hope that by bringing up what the "Hidden Server" did that actually worked, and worked for literal years, might convince the Homecoming Devs to think of ways they might implement or encourage those kinds of changes. 

Someone may have posted this already, and while I will admit, it is selfish, but I want you to understand from my perspective as a fire farmer.

 

Just two accounts and for one boss I'm earning ~56k inf. If I add more to my team, it drops, substantially. Experience also drops. Unless that member is contributing, I am farming 2/3x as efficient as I could be by myself.

 

I actually hate this and I totally think the teaming penalties should just go away, this game should aim to encourage it, not discourage it.

[EyeLuvBooks]

On 9/21/2019 at 4:45 PM, AurianArchive said:

 

I'd also note that the atmosphere on the "Hidden Server" was different than that of Homecoming (or other derivative servers). It was not unusual for the power-farmers to broadcast an open invitation for a power level. 

 

Here? From what I've seen in broadcast and global channel chats, it seems to be a return of the Live-server behavior. Nobody announces a power-leveling session for new players, and in some cases I got the distinct impression that if a player can't contribute to a farm they aren't welcome.  

 

 

I play exclusively on Everlasting (1000 slots FTW baby!) and I can say with firm conviction that you're wrong about offers to PL people. I see almost daily offers for people to come and door sit in an AE farm or the now-popular Council +4/x8 farms. The languuage is varied but it usually goes something like 'Buff or fight if you can, camp if not'. Since I came back in May I've seen a small handful of offers early on the PL people for Inf but those died out within a few months because why pay when generous 50s will do it for free while grinding Incarnate materials in PI?

[Prototech]

19 hours ago, GM Capocollo said:

In my personal, non-GM opinion as a player, I think telling someone "don't let it offend you" is as useful as telling someone who's just stepped on a Lego with bare feet to "don't let it dig into your foot".  Emotional pain is just as real as physical pain; you can choose to react to it in constructive or destructive ways, but telling someone that they shouldn't have felt it in the first place doesn't actually help anything, and puts the onus on the target rather than the initial cause of the issue.

The part your missing is that the person stepping on the lego isn't simply whining and grasping their foot for a minute. Instead they smack their child for leaving legos out, tell their wife they are horrible for trying to calm the situation down, retreating to bed and calling in sick to work for a week.

 

When some reasonable individual points out this is an overreaction to simply stepping on a lego, and it's a bit ironic that the person then inflicts greater pain on others, white knights come out and go "have some empathy, telling someone not to be hurt is wrong"

 

 

[MunkiLord]

5 minutes ago, Prototech said:

The part your missing is that the person stepping on the lego isn't simply whining and grasping their foot for a minute. Instead they smack their child for leaving legos out, tell their wife they are horrible for trying to calm the situation down, retreating to bed and calling in sick to work for a week.

 

When some reasonable individual points out this is an overreaction to simply stepping on a lego, and it's a bit ironic that the person then inflicts greater pain on others, white knights come out and go "have some empathy, telling someone not to be hurt is wrong"

 

 

The phrase I emphasized is a huge tell. I mean comparing what's going on in this thread to abusing one's family is clearly ridiculous, but using "white knight" in this context is a way to dismiss people and how they feel.

[Prototech]

Just now, MunkiLord said:

The phrase I emphasized is a huge tell. I mean comparing what's going on in this thread to abusing one's family is clearly ridiculous, but using "white knight" in this context is a way to dismiss people and how they feel.

How so? The white knight is the person coming out in defense of someone. Or do you mean dismissing how the white knight feels?

 

I mean I am arguing people are overreacting and I guess that means I consider their emotions overblown, not invalid necessarily. 

 

I was painting a picture around the person stepping on the lego, it was a purposeful exaggeration for effect. I made it ridiculous so no one would take it too seriously, doesn't seem it worked out. The point is, people are way too sensitive and it's humorous they lash out and do far worse than what was initially done to them. << for sure what happens on this forum and in this thread.

[Ukase]

My thoughts on this issue are simply that - my thoughts. 

We're all different, with differing amounts of time to play, and with different knowledge about the game. So, I try not to assess people based on how they play. That said, there is a help channel. People ask questions about making more inf, and I tell them. Honestly, and openly. To me, making the influence is far more interesting than leveling the character. I really only play the character to create more opportunities to make more influence. And it's quite simple. So simple, that now, I'm playing the game, exploring new content because the influence just rolls in. I spend 30 minutes at most, just converting the drops I get into ones that are worth more to other players. 

There's many different ways to make influence - but I don't think that's what the post is about - but about how we treat others. I get that. Nobody should be ridiculed for the way they play. That said, if I had a nickel for every player I ran into that was clueless about how to play their characters because they got power-leveled, I'd have a lot of nickels. This is the primary reason people chastise farmers, I think. It creates, in some cases (not all!) players that are so clueless about what they're doing, they don't even know that they don't know what they're doing. 

Nothing forces me to team with them, of course. Until I find myself on a task force and they want to have fun, but have no idea how to actually pull with a ranged attack. It's a simple mechanic once you learn it - but you won't learn it sitting at a door in AE. And their incompetence makes what should be a simple thing into an ordeal. And they don't seem to want to learn when I try to suggest alternate strategies. Fine. 

Using frost breath without positioning your character...well, I could go on, but I think the point is clear. The OP ran into someone who didn't have a full picture of what was really going on. And the OP didn't take advantage of free resources available. Like simply running the Sig story arc in Skyway for 20 merits, seeing a merit vendor and selling the converters for 85 to 90k each. 

Then buy a pvp io recipe (level 10 to keep crafting costs low) and then go get some more merits, to get some more converters, craft that bad boy, convert it to a panacea, shield wall or glad armor, and keep the profits to either buy more recipes, or buy a couple of the IOs needed. 
 

[ZacKing]

I agree with Prototech.  the people here quick to jump all over and verbally abuse someone who they deem as being dismissive or unsympathetic to the feelings of others are being just as dismissive and unsympathetic themselves.  no one blinks an eye to even consider that the person who replied to the OP might have been offended by what the OP posted.  "tough it up snowflake" or "want some cheese to go with that whine?" is being dismissive and unsympathetic.  "don't let it bother you" is not.  There are happy themed songs written with those as lyrics.  People taking that as some kind of negative unsympathetic thing  says way way more about them than it does anything else.  Sad but this is the age we live in where trigger warnings are required in schools and on social media. 

[justicebeliever]

24 minutes ago, Prototech said:

emotions overblown, not invalid necessarily

overblown essentially means invalid in this context.  Either way, you are saying their emotions are wrong.

 

And the sensitivity goes both ways.  Because I what I also saw in this thread were a bunch of people digging in and offended that someone else was offended by what they said

EDIT:  (I am not calling out ANY specific person here.  This is a paraphrase, not direct quotes.  People on both sides of this issue hunkered down and dug in)

 

Person 1:  Hey what you said kind of offended me

Person 2:  You are just being too sensitive (your feelings are invalid)

Person 1:  No, it really offended me

Person 2: Well, I'm offended that you are offended, because I don't think I did anything wrong

Person 1: Then you are a jerk

Person 2: Then you are a jerk

Kind of turns into one of those silly playground fights.

 

Now, flip this to you and your significant other, and see if you would still go the same path...Because in my experience, personal and observed (but not universal), this would not go well for me if I was person 2, even if I really felt person 1 was being too sensitive.  Imagine it with 2 coworkers, or a boss and an employee.  It would never end well.

 

Here's how it could go though

Person 1:  Hey what you said kind of offended me

Person 2:  I'm sorry.  That was not my intent.

Person 1:  Oh, OK.  No big deal man

Person 2: Cool

 

No one is a bad guy here...but hey, this is the internet, and so these kind of real world sensitivities go right out the window...

 

 

Edited October 1, 2019 by justicebeliever
Added disclaimer

[justicebeliever]

7 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

I agree with Prototech.  the people here quick to jump all over and verbally abuse someone who they deem as being dismissive or unsympathetic to the feelings of others are being just as dismissive and unsympathetic themselves.  no one blinks an eye to even consider that the person who replied to the OP might have been offended by what the OP posted.  "tough it up snowflake" or "want some cheese to go with that whine?" is being dismissive and unsympathetic.  "don't let it bother you" is not.  There are happy themed songs written with those as lyrics.  People taking that as some kind of negative unsympathetic thing  says way way more about them than it does anything else. 

And the people who feel like it's been suggestive that they were dismissive jump right back all over those who criticized them and feel equally offended.

 

"Don't let it bother you" is dismissive. 

 

"Honey, a coworker embezzeled money at work and framed me for it."

"OK, well, don't let it bother you."

 

Now, this is a gross exaggeration, and nowhere near the tiny scale of this thread, but the WORDS are still dismissive, and the meaning of the words doesn't change.

 

That being said, it's hardly rude, and in fact a very polite and courteous answer (It can be both dismissive and courteous).  And making a big deal about those words, in the tiny scale of this thread feels overblown.

 

EDIT:

7 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Sad but this is the age we live in where trigger warnings are required in schools and on social media. 

This also goes both ways.  There was a day and an age, where courtesy, manners, politeness, and respect of strangers went a long way.  Where phrases like, "I just call 'em like I see 'em" would be considered rude and poor-mannered, because it's really just a catchphrase for, "I can't be bother with you to take the time to say this in a constructive way".  Where the "the truth hurts" would be considered blasphemy, because truth should be used to build up, not tear down.

 

But today, like all ages, has it's own social issues to deal with.  Wasn't perfect back then, and it's not perfect now, and nothing we do here on this forum will make it any more perfect tomorrow

Edited October 1, 2019 by justicebeliever
Added a section

[ZacKing]

7 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

"Don't let it bother you" is dismissive. 

To some.  to others its not, not matter what silly hypothetical examples you can dream up.  but if you want to keep trying to say that, go right ahead.

 

11 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

Where the "the truth hurts" would be considered blasphemy, because truth should be used to build up, not tear down.

nonsense.  truth is truth. 

 

[justicebeliever]

 

3 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

To some.  to others its not, not matter what silly hypothetical examples you can dream up.  but if you want to keep trying to say that, go right ahead.

 

nonsense.  truth is truth. 

 

If you think the meaning of the words changes in my hypothetical example, then educate me.  If they don't, then it's not silly.

 

And yes, truth is truth.  I was not quantifying what it is, just how it's used.

 

A baseball bat is a baseball bat.  It should be used to play baseball, or as an emote in the game.  It should NOT be used in real life to hit people.

Edited October 1, 2019 by justicebeliever

[Twisted Toon]

19 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

"Honey, a coworker embezzeled money at work and framed me for it."

"OK, well, don't let it bother you."

 

This is one of the worst examples you could have used. No one has ever, as far as I know, framed anyone on these forums for a crime.

a better example would have been.

"Honey, a coworker called me a [insert descriptive word here]"

 

"Ok, well, tell the boss and don't let it get to you" would be a reasonable response. Orders of magnitude better than "well, send an expletive filled email to everyone at work detailing everything the coworker told you and demand that they get fired and sue the coworker for every cent they have."

 

Criminal activity should not be tolerated.

As far as I know, we still have freedom of speech in this country, so speaking ones mind is not a criminal act...yet.

[MunkiLord]

9 minutes ago, Twisted Toon said:

Orders of magnitude better than "well, send an expletive filled email to everyone at work detailing everything the coworker told you and demand that they get fired

On the other hand, this could be a fun way to quit a job and burn bridges. Long term may not be wise, but it sure could be interesting!

[justicebeliever]

4 minutes ago, Twisted Toon said:

This is one of the worst examples you could have used. No one has ever, as far as I know, framed anyone on these forums for a crime.

a better example would have been.

"Honey, a coworker called me a [insert descriptive word here]"

 

"Ok, well, tell the boss and don't let it get to you" would be a reasonable response. Orders of magnitude better than "well, send an expletive filled email to everyone at work detailing everything the coworker told you and demand that they get fired and sue the coworker for every cent they have."

 

Criminal activity should not be tolerated.

As far as I know, we still have freedom of speech in this country, so speaking ones mind is not a criminal act...yet.

I said it was a gross exaggeration to illustrate a point, not to speak to anyone's behavior.

 

And I also said that while a.) I still believe it to be a dismissive phrase, in the context of this thread, it's b.) very polite and courteous regardless, and in this context, c.) no one should be hounded for using it.  

 

Dismissive isn't bad.  There are times when things can be dismissed.  Someone tells you to not let internet trolls bother you, is dismissive.  But if you aren't willing to really engage with that person because a.) you don't know them, and b.) It would take a lot more time, then "Don't let it bother you" is not rude at all.  It's not empathetic.  You can just as easily say, "Yeah, that sucks".  But people like to give advice even when none is sought, and we have to accept that's going to happen to us on the internet.  So I'm not complaining about the phrase or it's use.  Just not sure why everyone wants to die on the hill of it being the most appropriate response in this situation.  And if it isn't the most appropriate response, and perhaps not as good as a different response, then just say so.

[ZacKing]

Can you directly quote someone who said it was the "most appropriate response"?  because that was never said like at all.  anywhere.   by anyone.  You're trying to add a spin to it to fit your interpretation with every silly example you're giving.  They all can be interpreted differently base on the individual.  it depends on the individual person and their experience.  And yeah, the truth does hurt sometimes.  truth isn't good or bad, its just the truth. 

[justicebeliever]

1 minute ago, ZacKing said:

Can you directly quote someone who said it was the "most appropriate response"?  because that was never said like at all.  anywhere.   by anyone.  You're trying to add a spin to it to fit your interpretation with every silly example you're giving. 

You don't have to say something explicitly for it to be true.  Not one of the people who are saying that "Don't let it bother you" is a fine response are acknowledging any other response as perhaps better.  Which is exactly what I said, no spin:

13 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

And if it isn't the most appropriate response, and perhaps not as good as a different response, then just say so.

But I've also said it's a fine response, in just about every post here.  So please, if you are going to respond, please do so in full context.  So you have to pick - yes, it's the best response, (and I disagree with you, and we can discuss) or no, it's not the best response, in which case we totally agree, because I don't think it's a bad response either.

 

7 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

and yeah, the truth does hurt sometimes.  truth isn't good or bad, its just the truth. 

Don't we agree on this already:

41 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

And yes, truth is truth.  I was not quantifying what it is, just how it's used.

 

A baseball bat is a baseball bat.  It should be used to play baseball, or as an emote in the game.  It should NOT be used in real life to hit people.

 

[ZacKing]

3 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

You don't have to say something explicitly for it to be true.

Yep.  I'm out.  enjoy

[ShardWarrior]

@justicebeliever no offense meant, but you really are reaching here.  You are interjecting way too much and way, way, way overthinking and struggling to come up with hypothetical scenarios to fit one possible side of a narrative with many different sides.  At least to me, everyone is adding their own personal baggage to what people are posting here.  It is an unfortunate consequence of using the internet to communicate with others.  We cannot see expression, hear tone of voice or pick up on body language.  Personally, I really do not believe we should get to the point where we need to have lists of what the "best" or "most appropriate" responses are to any given situation.  It's opening a can of worms I personally think best left closed.

Edited October 1, 2019 by ShardWarrior

[Widower]

Okay, this thread has long since run its course. Let us not do this again.