DELETE Hasten, SLIGHTLY ALTER all enemies, SLIGHTY ALTER all player powers

[macskull]

2 hours ago, Cooltastic said:

What would make me choose stealth over hasten? That's an easy one, toss that -speed debuff right out the damn window because I simply can't stand it and I'd take Stealth a hell of a lot more now that you can turn the FX off. Before that I strictly wouldn't take it unless I had a character concept that was ok with being translucent, like a ghost or something. I don't pic powers because they're they're considered better than other powers, I pick powers based on character concept and looks. Hell my main is a human PB with Nova, Dwarf, or Light Form. Point made.

 

I do take hasten a lot now because you can also turn the FX off so it doesn't clash with your character now, and it keeps you able to keep attacking more often instead of standing around waiting on cooldowns.

FWIW Stealth hasn't had a -speed component since the September 10 patch.

[Haijinx]

I haven't addressed the alternatives for hasten, because I disagree with fixing it in the current game.  

 

=====

If you were completely to redo COH for a COH 2 or COH 2nd edition rules or whatever .. then yeah I'd say nerf it, past any change Steampunkette suggested.

 

Realistically in that scenario Hasten doesn't fit as a pool, becuase it has no business being more powerful than Quickness and Lightning Reflexes. 

 

Probably something like lower the duration from 120 to 30 seconds.  

 

Or keep the duration the same but reduce the bonus to 35%

 

Or make it a fairly high end toggle

======

 

But nah.  Just leave it.

[Haijinx]

I disagree with the numbers presented, Hasten *IS* powerful.

 

Quickness is like adding a DO to every power. 

 

Hasten is like adding 2 SOs to every power, That ignores ED.

 

Perma Hasten is thus more Powerful than a T4 core Incarnate ability.

 

Saying its not very powerful might be some confirmation bias.  

 

[Jeuraud]

19 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

There is no idea here. It was destroyed long ago. It has been killed many ways.

But the idea was not killed, unless you consider "I like it so dont mess with it." or "Its popular so dont mess with it." (Which is pretty much the same thing.), the only data needed to call an idea bad. That you all have gone to "arguing the person" says that you have nothing more, and that the OP refuses to kowtow to your bullying says something about her.

 

In my opinion the OP could/should have let this thread go as soon as you-all started attacking her thread or herself, instead of her idea, because you have already lost the argument.

Of course those against changing Hasten in CoHV also lost the argument in the same way... multiple times, yet here it is being argued again. Yo well.

 

IMO Hasten is Broken.

IMO having 82% of level 50s taking it is a valid data point for it being broken.

IMO a Pool Buff that out-buffs even an Incarnate is broken.

IMO having a powerful Pool Buff that is not even a T4 or T5 and only requires you to choose it, is broken.

 

IMO the OP has bent over backwards trying to compromise with a group that has no intention of compromising, so IMO the minimum that should happen to Hasten is that it is moved up to the T4 or T5 slot, and then looked at for Tweaking.

 

 

[Zepp]

3 hours ago, QuiJon said:

Accept you are then REQUIRING that if I want to build I perma-dom I have to take 5 powers that can slot defense, and be able to afford 5 powers worth of 5slotted purples to obtain it. Where currently it is available with hasten without having to be so exacting. So getting rid of the current state of hasten essentially will mean that anyone that wants that reward will now just be making cookie cutter builds that have CJ, Hover, Stealth, Manuevers, and the fighting pool to get to weave. I think the minority of the community that doesn't like hasten should just decide for themselves to not take it, and leave the rest of us alone that want it because it gives us freedom to actually make the characters we want instead of taking half our power choices to just fit into a certain build mechanic.  If you admit that hasten is not OP then it doesn't need to be nerfed. Why does it matter how I choose to build my toon in comparison with how you build yours?

Read the last line of the post you quoted...

Also, the recharge requirement for perma-hasten is basically the same as the amount of recharge you need for Perma-Dom+Hasten... In other words, adding Hasten to a Dom build does not actually significantly change the amount of Global Recharge you need from IO sets... Furthermore, I was not saying you had to get defensive powers or slot purples, I was just pointing to common mechanics used for building Global Recharge...

[TheAdjustor]

13 minutes ago, Jeuraud said:

But the idea was not killed, unless you consider "I like it so dont mess with it." or "Its popular so dont mess with it." (Which is pretty much the same thing.), the only data needed to call an idea bad. That you all have gone to "arguing the person" says that you have nothing more, and that the OP refuses to kowtow to your bullying says something about her.

 

In my opinion the OP could/should have let this thread go as soon as you-all started attacking her thread or herself, instead of her idea, because you have already lost the argument.

Of course those against changing Hasten in CoHV also lost the argument in the same way... multiple times, yet here it is being argued again. Yo well.

 

IMO Hasten is Broken.

IMO having 82% of level 50s taking it is a valid data point for it being broken.

IMO a Pool Buff that out-buffs even an Incarnate is broken.

IMO having a powerful Pool Buff that is not even a T4 or T5 and only requires you to choose it, is broken.

 

IMO the OP has bent over backwards trying to compromise with a group that has no intention of compromising, so IMO the minimum that should happen to Hasten is that it is moved up to the T4 or T5 slot, and then looked at for Tweaking.

 

 

That's the problem with thread, someone walks into it recently they can be easily confused by it's ridiculousness. It has nothing to do with bullying and everything about "NO YOU CAN"T SCREW WITH PEOPLE BECAUSE YOU ARE BORED".

 

And yes the IDEA WAS DESTROYED. THAT"S WHY IT"S ON ITS 4TH OFF THE CUFF ITERATION. If It hadn't been destroyed we would still be talking about "DELETE HASTEN" ( The first post which has been edited out of existence).

 

Now it's onto REDO THE ENTIRE GAME WAHHHH

 

That one btw comes pre destroyed, no further disassembly  required.

 

 

Quote

IMO Hasten is Broken.

Yeah well opinions are like anuses everybody has one.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[Zepp]

@TheAdjustor it is disingenuous to stay that because the OP is diplomatic that the original proposal was "destroyed". Adjustments have been made to try to bring consensus. Some opinions have been well thought out and well defended (such as the proposals made by the OP, others have been emotional and untenable. Unfortunately, the amount of people that comment without reading the thread or thinking through their responses have added a good amount of emotionally charged "don't touch my toys" type posts.

TLDR slinging insults and making unfounded assertions is not actually a way to defend your position.

[TheAdjustor]

5 minutes ago, Zepp said:

@TheAdjustor it is disingenuous to stay that because the OP is diplomatic that the original proposal was "destroyed". Adjustments have been made to try to bring consensus. Some opinions have been well thought out and well defended (such as the proposals made by the OP, others have been emotional and untenable. Unfortunately, the amount of people that comment without reading the thread or thinking through their responses have added a good amount of emotionally charged "don't touch my toys" type posts.

TLDR slinging insults and making unfounded assertions is not actually a way to defend your position.

I agree with what you are saying as far as it goes. You have to recall the OP didn't start this in this thread. They started it in the add a smidge of recharge to swift thread.  Matter of fact in that thread they made unsupported assertions about the community and usefulness of hasten and then moved to this thread and continually changed up their position.

 

And no the OP's posts have not been well thought out. (edit because it just needed to be said in case there could be any doubt)

 

To borrow a phrase

"At the very best they haven't demonstrated any actual work in making their case"

Edited September 28, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[Epsilon Assassin]

4 minutes ago, Zepp said:

TLDR slinging insults and making unfounded assertions is not actually a way to defend your position.

The problem is that the position(s) havent moved. We've just been here for 10 pages trying to figure out if there's any logical reason to make a move that takes so much work. When one side just says the same thing over and over, it's not surprising that the other side gets frustrated and the discourse degrades. 

[Jeuraud]

6 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

That's the problem with thread, someone walks into it recently they can be easily confused by it's ridiculousness. It has nothing to do with bullying and everything about "NO YOU CAN"T SCREW WITH PEOPLE BECAUSE YOU ARE BORED".

I've been following this thread since it was on page one, and IMO Steampunkett is not a Troll and never has been, even when I disagree with her, or when she disagrees with something I have said.

Stubborn... oh yeah... a Troll... not a chance.

 

Something to note, this

11 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

Yeah well opinions are like anuses everybody has one.

is one of those statements used when you have failed in your argument. It is a passive/aggressive way of saying my opinion stinks.

[TheAdjustor]

Just now, Jeuraud said:

 

Something to note, this

 

is one of those statements used when you have failed in your argument. It is a passive/aggressive way of saying my opinion stinks.

No, quite literally it's the only correct response to someone who says

Quote

IMO Hasten is Broken.

But speaking of fail, when you are stating that without anything to back it up, you literally have failed to make a case.

[Jeuraud]

6 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

But speaking of fail, when you are stating that without anything to back it up, you literally have failed to make a case.

Ah, so you did not realize that these

41 minutes ago, Jeuraud said:

IMO having 82% of level 50s taking it is a valid data point for it being broken.

IMO a Pool Buff that out-buffs even an Incarnate is broken.

IMO having a powerful Pool Buff that is not even a T4 or T5 and only requires you to choose it, is broken.

which were right under the first opinion statement, the whole separated from my other statements, were what I was using to validate my opinion.

 

9 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

No, quite literally it's the only correct response to someone who says

So telling me my opinion stinks, in a passive/aggressive way, was the only valid response... right???

[TheAdjustor]

Just now, Jeuraud said:

Ah, so you did not realize that these

which were right under the first opinion statement, the whole separated from my other statements, were what I was using to validate my opinion.

Except they don't and the plural of opinion isn't "FACT"

 

All they are is "This rubs me the wrong way"

 

Quote

So telling me my opinion stinks, in a passive/aggressive way, was the only valid response... right???

Quote

Yeah well opinions are like anuses everybody has one.

Unh hunh, seems like somebody thinks they are better than everyone else

 

 

[TheAdjustor]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

I haven't addressed the alternatives for hasten, because I disagree with fixing it in the current game.  

 

=====

If you were completely to redo COH for a COH 2 or COH 2nd edition rules or whatever .. then yeah I'd say nerf it, past any change Steampunkette suggested.

 

Realistically in that scenario Hasten doesn't fit as a pool, becuase it has no business being more powerful than Quickness and Lightning Reflexes. 

 

Probably something like lower the duration from 120 to 30 seconds.  

 

Or keep the duration the same but reduce the bonus to 35%

 

Or make it a fairly high end toggle

======

 

But nah.  Just leave it.

 

Let me ask you this. If you were to nerf hasten how would it change the overall balance between the ATs ? In the only meaningful term how quickly they can complete content. I am not certain of the overall answer but I can think of quite a few examples where it not being available would make the current balance issues much worse. (currently want to do anything on your own, Scrapper, Brute, Stalker would be my goto choices, for the most part not having hasten will be a minor inconvenience for them, for defenders, corruptors, blasters, controllers, and dominators it would be really bad (sentinels ? Don't know))

Edited September 28, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[Haijinx]

20 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

 

Let me ask you this. If you were to nerf hasten how would it change the overall balance between the ATs ? In the only meaningful term how quickly they can complete content. I am not certain of the overall answer but I can think of quite a few examples where it not being available would make the current balance issues much worse. (currently want to do anything on your own, Scrapper, Brute, Stalker would be my goto choices, for the most part not having hasten will be a minor inconvenience for them, for defenders, corruptors, blasters, controllers, and dominators it would be really bad (sentinels ? Don't know))

Not sure.  I definitely wouldn't do it it this current ruleset. 

 

So a lot of those considerations would have also changed.  

 

But if you are doing a whole different edition of rules, it doesn't make sense for Hasten to eclipse primary/ secondary powers. 

 

It doesn't make sense a SR tanker and /SR Scrapper get exactly the same recharge bonus out of quickness. 

 

You have a good point where hasten is less needed on ATs have more durabilty.  Since a lot of profs depend on active controls/debuffs to survive, making Hasten part of their defenses. 

 

[Infinitum]

45 minutes ago, Jeuraud said:

Ah, so you did not realize that these

which were right under the first opinion statement, the whole separated from my other statements, were what I was using to validate my opinion.

 

So telling me my opinion stinks, in a passive/aggressive way, was the only valid response... right???

no its because your opinion literally stinks.  for most sane people that like the game and love playing it as is.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Zepp said:

@TheAdjustor it is disingenuous to stay that because the OP is diplomatic that the original proposal was "destroyed". Adjustments have been made to try to bring consensus. Some opinions have been well thought out and well defended (such as the proposals made by the OP, others have been emotional and untenable. Unfortunately, the amount of people that comment without reading the thread or thinking through their responses have added a good amount of emotionally charged "don't touch my toys" type posts.

TLDR slinging insults and making unfounded assertions is not actually a way to defend your position.

Our position through all of this is that there is no proven balance point in the game to show that hasten breaks it.  Nobody has ever once defined where the balance point for the game, and just being popular is not a reason to say it breaks the game, because hasten is not required.

 

the position is too many people take hasten. that proves nothing in terms of balance because unless you go to each person and ask what their intentions were you are only assuming at that point why they took hasten in the first place.

[Zepp]

Even Dominators, the most recharge-intensive AT, does not actually need Hasten at level 50. That being said, pre-47 perma-dom is very difficult without Hasten. As I have stated earlier, the OP makes a solid case for Hasten being OP compared to other Pool Powers, and that there is a social problem of Hasten being seen as a panacea. That said, I think this is best addressed through re-norming of when Hasten is used. When someone posts a build with Hasten, seriously ask, what is the benefit of Hasten in this build? This is a social issue that needs a social solution, but that is a long road.

[Jeuraud]

43 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

Unh hunh, seems like somebody thinks they are better than everyone else

Um... you do realize this is your statement... right?

1 hour ago, TheAdjustor said:

Yeah well opinions are like anuses everybody has one.

 

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Zepp said:

Even Dominators, the most recharge-intensive AT, does not actually need Hasten at level 50. That being said, pre-47 perma-dom is very difficult without Hasten. As I have stated earlier, the OP makes a solid case for Hasten being OP compared to other Pool Powers, and that there is a social problem of Hasten being seen as a panacea. That said, I think this is best addressed through re-norming of when Hasten is used. When someone posts a build with Hasten, seriously ask, what is the benefit of Hasten in this build? This is a social issue that needs a social solution, but that is a long road.

No not really because Leadership pool on an entire team of picks with it is far more powerful than what hasten by itself can do, because those stack. Hasten requires slotting and other globals to perma.

 

Leadership just needs team planning to make an invulnerable death machine team.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Jeuraud said:

Um... you do realize this is your statement... right?

 

yeah well the whole change or delete hasten crew stinks of elitism so i would say Adjuster is dead on accurate.

[Zepp]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Our position through all of this is that there is no proven balance point in the game to show that hasten breaks it.  Nobody has ever once defined where the balance point for the game, and just being popular is not a reason to say it breaks the game, because hasten is not required.

 

the position is too many people take hasten. that proves nothing in terms of balance because unless you go to each person and ask what their intentions were you are only assuming at that point why they took hasten in the first place.

Not sure who is in your group, so I will just reply to you without respecting your asserted authority of the group/"majority" position. The assertion is that the popularity of Hasten demonstrates a perceived superiority of it over other pool powers. Furthermore, Hasten has a larger recharge buff than any of the powers characters can grab in primaries or secondaries. Furthermore, if one were to spend time in the AT threads, you would find that builds without Hasten are often criticized, and that there is a social stigma to not having Hasten in one's build. Comments in this thread reflect that sentiment. Furthermore, there are posts in this thread that exaggerate the value of Hasten (saying that it provides a 38s boost to a 90s recharge power, when it only provides 37ish seconds in builds with an unslotted power and no global recharge - 4-6s for most builds)

It appears that even those that do not want the nerf acknowledge the value of the power. While it might not be "required", it is a social stigma to build without it.

[Zepp]

7 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

No not really because Leadership pool on an entire team of picks with it is far more powerful than what hasten by itself can do, because those stack. Hasten requires slotting and other globals to perma.

 

Leadership just needs team planning to make an invulnerable death machine team.

Not everyone plays on a team.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Not everyone plays on a team.

Nobody has to take hasten.

[Haijinx]

I wouldn't describe it as breaking the game or not.

 

I think the way I'd put it is ... 

 

The game matured with hasten and then set bonuses.  These are the mechanics we have.

 

Hasten has been like this forever, what is the sudden issue that has cropped up?