Personal Issue with AE and the slower slog of normal content.

[jubakumbi]

15 minutes ago, Twisted Toon said:

Actually, it wasn't simply because they could hit level 50 faster. It was because once they hit level 50, they had absolutely no idea how to play that level 50 and wanted to join in the level 50 Hami games. But, because they didn't know how to play that level 50, ruined the fun for many of those that did not PL their way to 50 and actually knew how to play. This was, of course, before Incarnates. When level 50 content wasn't as easy to trivialize.

 

So, yes, PLing to 50 can have detrimental effects for other players. It's not as likely now as it once was.

 

I don't really have an opinion on whether AE should be changed or not. I will say that, on the off chance, if the Devs decide to do something about the balance between normal content and AE farming, It would probably be vastly more feasible to nerf AE than to buff everything else in the game.

This just goes back to players thinking other players are not playing 'right' or 'good enough', basic elist BS, IMO.

The whining of a few forum posters over PUGs that had a bad player was just as funny to read about then as it is now, in every MMO forum on the planet.

 

There never was a detrimental effect IMO, just players with little empathy and patience.

[jubakumbi]

33 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

This isn't a court. This is a discussion/debate and when someone presents a claim its perfectly valid to ask them to back it up. If you can't do that then maybe don't make broad sweeping claims about what you think other people think. It has no bearing on reality and is in fact a logical fallacy.

Sweeping claims?

I am simply referring to posters who post right now, today, on these forums, wanting the AE to change because 'feelings'.

 

Many posters on this forum have referred to these same events.

The posts and data I have at hand still points to a morality based argument that the AE is somehow 'wrong' because of all kinds of things from 'creating bad players' to allowing people to play the game in ways 'unintended by the developers'.

 

Posts right in this thread, even.

 

We had discussions on this very thing just as the HC forums got up and running, because we were laughing about the trifecta of AE, ED, and something else that escapes me being argued already, Free-To-Play maybe?...

 

IIRC, one of the lead developers had to walk back some seriously bad PR over the AE during Live, trying to villify players for using it.

So many things were attacked by the original developers and thier rose-tinted glasses, trying to force players into a specific leveling track, slowing the process to increase revenue.

 

All these things happened.

 

IMO, it leads me to think that players who either already felt this way or like to be on the developers side, took these attacks and amplified them into what we have now, groups of players that actually think they play the game the 'right' way and that it is thier duty to bring the rest of us in line.

[Abraxus]

In a free to play game, running on a (currently) non-sanctioned server, I'm not sure there is really any high-ground for determining what's right, and wrong.  It's a wonderful game that went before it's time, and we have been given a very rare second chance to live in the world we love so much.  Rather than making moral, or any other kinds of judgements about how other play, or should play, how about we just...play? 

 

I'm one that thinks that while we are playing, we seldom think of others as critically as we do here in the forums.  It's not perfect in Paragon City, but if one were to judge from typical in-game experience, they would probably say that this is a pretty happy place overall.  It's only here in the forum that one finds tension, debate, criticism, and lobbying for changes to be made to the game because of (fill in your reason of choice).  Things are probably not as bad overall as they sometimes appear to be here in the discussions.  But, even here, we could probably do with a little less pontificating on how the game would be so much better for everyone, if it just did (fill in your favorite universal fix).

 

The truth of the matter is, that it is highly unlikely that any "bedrock" level changes are coming to this game.  Improvements, QoL stuff, new missions.  I could see that.  But, for anyone expecting a full graphics overhaul (discreet fingers even?), or titanic shifts in the balance of things with regards to AE, Incarnates, Power Leveling, or anything else, I feel like you are expecting too much from a small group of volunteers, who have day jobs in addition to what they do to keep this place running.  I really believe if you are looking for that level of change, keep pulling for the negotiations to be successful, and that the relative popularity inspires the powers that be at NCSoft that there should be a CoH 2 in the planning stages.  Outside of that, things will remain pretty much the same around here IMHO.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Abraxus

[Frostbiter]

16 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Sweeping claims?

I am simply referring to posters who post right now, today, on these forums, wanting the AE to change because 'feelings'.

 

Many posters on this forum have referred to these same events.

The posts and data I have at hand still points to a morality based argument that the AE is somehow 'wrong' because of all kinds of things from 'creating bad players' to allowing people to play the game in ways 'unintended by the developers'.

 

Posts right in this thread, even.

 

We had discussions on this very thing just as the HC forums got up and running, because we were laughing about the trifecta of AE, ED, and something else that escapes me being argued already, Free-To-Play maybe?...

 

IIRC, one of the lead developers had to walk back some seriously bad PR over the AE during Live, trying to villify players for using it.

So many things were attacked by the original developers and thier rose-tinted glasses, trying to force players into a specific leveling track, slowing the process to increase revenue.

 

All these things happened.

 

IMO, it leads me to think that players who either already felt this way or like to be on the developers side, took these attacks and amplified them into what we have now, groups of players that actually think they play the game the 'right' way and that it is thier duty to bring the rest of us in line.

You can justify it however you want but you still tried to make an argument for those you percieve as opposition and then treated it as if it were true. We call that a strawman. How would you feel if I did the same? Let's find out. 

 

I remember back on Live everyone in favor of AE farming just came right out and said they liked the easy button it gave them. They didn't have to worry about being challenged anymore because they could just pack their own missions with weak enemies that folded like tissue paper when they gave them hard looks. They said it really shoots up the influence/hr to levels unmatched by players who don't play farms filled with one-armed infants. 

[jubakumbi]

27 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

You can justify it however you want but you still tried to make an argument for those you percieve as opposition and then treated it as if it were true. We call that a strawman. How would you feel if I did the same? Let's find out. 

 

I remember back on Live everyone in favor of AE farming just came right out and said they liked the easy button it gave them. They didn't have to worry about being challenged anymore because they could just pack their own missions with weak enemies that folded like tissue paper when they gave them hard looks. They said it really shoots up the influence/hr to levels unmatched by players who don't play farms filled with one-armed infants. 

Um, ok?

I presented my correlation of the data at hand, from my PoV.

That data leads me to conclusions and those conclusions lead me to think there are people that think the AE is bad for the game and that they think they need to tell the rest of us how to play.

I don't like that, so I speak out against it.

 

Are you saying what I am speaking out against is not and has not occured?

The 'arguments' I have presented from the 'opposition' are right in this forum.

How have I made something up here?

Was I somehow out of bounds by simply saying what other people think and feel, when I have seen the posts?

 

I saw posts like the one you just tried to parody(?), I see them now, plenty of people love the powerleveling of the AE.

[Frostbiter]

Well, this was fun but you have a good day.

[MunkiLord]

2 hours ago, Frostbiter said:

C'mon man, thats pure strawmanning unless you can list all the players that you've interviewed about the AE and provide transcripts of said interviews. Lets see your data that backs up what you know other players are thinking and feeling. Make sure it has all the dates going back to Live. 

Positron made his giant whiny post about AE powerleveling and exploiting and a lot of people bought in. 

[Frostbiter]

Good for Positron. How many people bought into it? Lots is vague and useless as a metric.

[jubakumbi]

24 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

Good for Positron. How many people bought into it? Lots is vague and useless as a metric.

So now you want statistical analysis as well?

Based on my experience and reading forum posts, 'some number greater than zero' agreed with developer outlook that other players were doing it 'wrong'.

These outlooks exist.

What does it matter how many players there are that try to force the rest of the population to play a certain way?

Lots? Few? Some?

I don't care how many there are, they are still trying to control everyone else and I don't like it...

[roleki]

It's too bad the original forums are lost forever, because @jubakumbiis absolutely correct, that is exactly how it happened - the devs realized their new toy could be harnessed to harm revenue, and started bashing it immediately.  Sycophants crawled out of the woodwork to evangelize the "PL BAD!" mantra, and almost all of them used nebulous, hand-wavey arguments that farmers weren't playing the game the right way... the same weak arguments being used today, in this thread and others, with no foundation other than "I don't like it so I am going to rail about it."  

 

Then there's whatever the hell you're doing.

 

ETA: I would even go so far as to say the two recent threads wherein AE is discussed almost read like they were planted there, what with the one having an arrogant title crafted in such a way as to whip up a furor where none existed and the other being right up the whole "AE farmers are morally weak and cannot control themselves, therefore it must be taken away from them" ethos espoused by a particular brand of lunatic.

Edited October 22, 2019 by roleki

[Abraxus]

IMHO, the argument was not a strong one when the game was driven by profit.  Now that is no longer the case, there is precious little grounds to object to how anyone chooses to accumulate XP.  If they reach 50, get bored, and leave, there is no threat to profitability, because there is none.  Granted, I never want to see anyone leave for any reason.  But, I know it happens.  Not everyone will stay forever like me.  But, to intentionally throw roadblocks in their way to prevent that from happening any sooner than it would anyway?  I just don't get why anyone would advocate for it. 

I mean, if you want to say "Noobs should come up the old fashioned way, so that they actually know how to play when they hit L50".  Ok, I get that.  It's good advice.  But, you can't force them to do that.  If they want to be good players, they will.  If they just want to blow through levels, and leave all the sooner...well, problem solved either way. 😎

[Frostbiter]

13 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

So now you want statistical analysis as well?

Based on my experience and reading forum posts, 'some number greater than zero' agreed with developer outlook that other players were doing it 'wrong'.

These outlooks exist.

What does it matter how many players there are that try to force the rest of the population to play a certain way?

Lots? Few? Some?

I don't care how many there are, they are still trying to control everyone else and I don't like it...

That's better. You didn't once reference what you think other people think. Well, until that bit at the end. That's what we call "passing  judgement" and it works both ways.

[jubakumbi]

2 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

That's better. You didn't once reference what you think other people think. Well, until that bit at the end. That's what we call "passing  judgement" and it works both ways.

Golly, I am so happy I am posting closer to your exacting expectations. /s

Edited October 22, 2019 by jubakumbi
speeling

[Frostbiter]

1 minute ago, jubakumbi said:

Golly, I am so happy I am posting closer to your exacting expectations. /s

Do you want a little cheese with that whine , padawan?

[jubakumbi]

Just now, Frostbiter said:

Do you want a little cheese with that whine , padawan?

Not a big cheese fan, got a joint?

[Frostbiter]

lol, I do actually.

[jubakumbi]

1 minute ago, Frostbiter said:

lol, I do actually.

Then partake and perhaps that bug up your butt about how others word thier posts might find a way out. 😉

 

[golstat2003]

15 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

IMHO, the argument was not a strong one when the game was driven by profit.  Now that is no longer the case, there is precious little grounds to object to how anyone chooses to accumulate XP.  If they reach 50, get bored, and leave, there is no threat to profitability, because there is none.  Granted, I never want to see anyone leave for any reason.  But, I know it happens.  Not everyone will stay forever like me.  But, to intentionally throw roadblocks in their way to prevent that from happening any sooner than it would anyway?  I just don't get why anyone would advocate for it. 

I mean, if you want to say "Noobs should come up the old fashioned way, so that they actually know how to play when they hit L50".  Ok, I get that.  It's good advice.  But, you can't force them to do that.  If they want to be good players, they will.  If they just want to blow through levels, and leave all the sooner...well, problem solved either way. 😎

Pretty much this.

[Frostbiter]

5 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Then partake and perhaps that bug up your butt about how others word thier posts might find a way out. 😉

 

Ok, let me ask you a real question. How do you expect me to reply to that? Am I supposed to flame you or something? Get all upset? Report you? I hate to tell you but I'm mostly laughing about you thinking of my butt. It is nice though isn't it?

[MunkiLord]

1 hour ago, Frostbiter said:

Good for Positron. How many people bought into it? Lots is vague and useless as a metric.

I don't need to provide any metric or be more specific. Nobody in this discussion has access to any hard data or metrics on the subject, and you know that. So dismissing opinions on the subject for that reason is a disingenuous tactic.

[Frostbiter]

Call it whatever you want.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Frostbiter

[jubakumbi]

4 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

Ok, let me ask you a real question. How do you expect me to reply to that? Am I supposed to flame you or something? Get all upset? Report you? I hate to tell you but I'm mostly laughing about you thinking of my butt. It is nice though isn't it?

Your reply is great. Mine made you laugh.

That really is the only thing that matters - laughing and enjoying life.

 

All of my posts are real.

This is how I talk to people in the real world, everyday.

I love to openly speak about things, bluntly, with people who can disect ideas without thinking because I think an idea is bad that they are bad.

Sadly, most people simply cannot do that, IME.

 

It's why I am so damned adamant about this topic - gamers telling other gamers the 'right' way to have fun.

 

You seemed to not like the format of my message, you said so, I responded, it's all fun to me.

 

None of that means I won't be a cheeky, sarcastic bastard though.

I am who I am.

[golstat2003]

2 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

I pointed out a strawman. Call it whatever you want.

Regardless there are still plenty of folks asking for AE to be nerfed in some unnecessary way today. Just read some of the threads on these forums. The side show between you and others doesn't refute that fact.

 

It all boils down to: gamers telling other gamers the 'right' way to have fun. Which will get the same response from me every time:

 

/jranger.

Edited October 22, 2019 by golstat2003

[MunkiLord]

4 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Regardless there are still plenty of folks asking for AE to be nerfed in some unnecessary way today. Just read some of the threads on these forums. The side show between you and others doesn't refute that fact.

 

It all boils down to: gamers telling other gamers the 'right' way to have fun. Which will get the same response from me every time:

 

/jranger.

The person you responded to absolutely knows this, they are one of the people that is opposed to farming. Their objections and points the last few pages are disingenuous seeing as how they are actually one of the people we are talking about.

Edited October 22, 2019 by MunkiLord

[Frostbiter]

Just now, MunkiLord said:

The person you responded to absolutely knows this, they are one of the people that is opposed to farming. Their objections and points the last few pages are disingenuous seeing as how they are actually one of the people we are talking about.

Am I? It suspiciously sounds like you're telling other people what I think. Please provide some evidence in the form of my posts that back this up. Because if I want you to know what I think I'll fucking tell you.