Sorry not sorry

[Solarverse]

5 minutes ago, Lost Ninja said:

First define "good" and "bad". Because looking at this thread there are many who think they're good and everyone else is bad.

I played a Bots/Dark on live, with Group Fly (though I did find that the minions would melee sometimes even with it). On maps with space for me to be well off the ground I would refuse to drop it too, it was part of what made my build work. However if the team was crowded together in an Office or some of the smaller warehouses, I'd turn it off because it could be distracting for my team mates. And yes I seem to remember being kicked from teams for having a less than useful (to the team) power. (Bear in mind this was before Null.)

 

But if you're playing a team game then the onus is on you to fit into the team. Not for the team to change to fit you in.

You have pretty much defined a good player right there. People kicking you from a team because they felt like you just had a bad power, even though you weren't doing anything wrong, just means you got on a team full of bad players. The fact you turned it off in tight spaces speaks volumes for you. I would say you just ended up on a team full of bads.

[MunkiLord]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

This I feel is the real problem. The real problem are the good players. Good players are not educating the bad ones. They are not putting on their big boy pants and trying to teach bad players. Bad player are only bad until they learn to be good. But if nobody says anything to them, guess what? They will continue to be bad players.

That's not their responsibility. If they want to say something, cool. If they don't, that is equally as valid. I may offer some advice or suggestions here and there when in game, especially if my opinion is asked. But I'm not going to spend time of any significance educating anybody in game. I don't find it fun, and since I play to have fun, I don't bother with it.

[Solarverse]

Just now, MunkiLord said:

That's not their responsibility. If they want to say something, cool. If they don't, that is equally as valid. I may offer some advice or suggestions here and there when in game, especially if my opinion is asked. But I'm not going to spend time of any significance educating anybody in game. I don't find it fun, and since I play to have fun, I don't bother with it.

It only takes a few seconds to type; Hey, do us a favor and aim your knock back toward a wall that the Tank is holding the mobs in, or wait until the mob is locked down by the trollers so you don't scatter the mobs, or if you fly, fly above them and aim down with your AoE knock back. The Tank is trying to keep the mobs tight so we can ALL make good use of our AoE's.

 

That took me exactly 15 seconds to type.

 

The problem is, is when nobody says anything at all, that player goes on to annoy other teams as well. I think if more people chipped in, even a little info here and there, bad players would become fewer and fewer over time. I would rather take 15 seconds to give a small tip to a player who is giving the team fits, then have a couple of other players chime in to agree (so that the bad player doesn't take it like an attack, rather than a short education) than kicking that player. I'm not a fan of kicking players from a team. It's a last resort. I think players banning together to help educate is the much better solution all round.

[jubakumbi]

13 hours ago, Rylas said:

Just to clarify, those of us that just suggest making people aware of things before starting things like TFs and Trials, you don't consider those wanna-be CEOs, do you?

Some are, based on the militant way in which they choose to run groups, IME.

The moment a star holder in CoH starts with any 'house rules', I drop, ubless we are just confirming it's a speed run or not.

Communication is key - feel free to let players like me know the leader is stick in the mud before we begin, that's always better.

 

The only issue here is judgemental players.

People trying to convince us that players that play the game a different way are 'bad' are the problem.

Just a bunch of haters that cannot abide anyone not doing things thier way, IMO.

 

This is nothing new.

These hateful players have been trying to me how to play games the 'right' way for about 40 years now.

They end up, IME, sitting in a corner in the game shop all alone, or with one or to other judgemental players, while the rest of us are laughing and enjoying a fun game of something.

Seen it in online games, MTG, Battletech, PnP games, all of them.

Some people simply cannot abide other players not conforming to the 'herd'.

 

I will keep on having a ton of fun in my life, these players have no power over me, I rant on forums like this to support other players that, like me, choose thier own path and do not choose to follow the herd.

[MunkiLord]

7 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

It only takes a few seconds to type; Hey, do us a favor and aim your knock back toward a wall that the Tank is holding the mobs in, or wait until the mob is locked down by the trollers so you don't scatter the mobs, or if you fly, fly above them and aim down with your AoE knock back. The Tank is trying to keep the mobs tight so we can ALL make good use of our AoE's.

 

That took me exactly 15 seconds to type.

 

The problem is, is when nobody says anything at all, that player goes on to annoy other teams as well. I think if more people chipped in, even a little info here and there, bad players would become fewer and fewer over time. I would rather take 15 seconds to give a small tip to a player who is giving the team fits, then have a couple of other players chime in to agree (so that the bad player doesn't take it like an attack, rather than a short education) than kicking that player. I'm not a fan of kicking players from a team. It's a last resort. I think players banning together to help educate is the much better solution all round.

In theory you're not wrong. But let's face it, a lot of people do a poor job giving advice in a way a random person will be receptive to it. And that's not a knock on the person speaking up, that's not an easy thing to do since text doesn't always properly convey tone and it's generally impossible to know how someone will perceive it. And regardless of who is to blame in such an exchange, if the message isn't effective, it's a failure since the goal wasn't met. To me, it's just not worth the effort 95% of the time. I play exclusively in pick up groups, so I've just accepted that random terrible decisions are going to happen and there is generally little to nothing I can do about it. I also feel having to constantly adjust for random shit has made me a better player, so I admittedly get something out of it. Plus, when it comes to random teams, everyone is replaceable, and that includes me. So if I do get annoyed enough, I'll just quit and find a new team.

 

Now all of that is my general stance, specific circumstances could cause me to act differently and speak up. For example, if someone starts off a Master of Ms Liberty TF throwing mobs all over the place and almost dying, I'll probably suggest toning it down a little bit. And if I'm leading I'll give a "reminder" at certain points in which a quick death is possible. But on a general ITF run, I just deal and don't worry about it unless the team is wiping over and over.

[Solarverse]

56 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

 

The only issue here is judgemental players.

People trying to convince us that players that play the game a different way are 'bad' are the problem.

 

How people play is none of my concern. How they mesh with the team is. If you are playing on the team and you hit the mob with an AoE knock back, which scatters mobs all over the place, what ends up following is Trollers (accidentally) lock down the mobs while they are scattered, then the mobs are stuck in that scattered position. Meanwhile, you have the other Blasters on the team using their AoE's and it only hits one or two NPC's because the one they had targeted, has been knocked away from the rest of the mob. Meanwhile, that Tank that went through the trouble to get the mobs stacked on the Tank, is now subject to lose out on his +Defense per NPC within Melee range, and his Defensive bonus is now useless, which means the Tank now takes more damage than what he would had the mobs been stacked on him/her. The only person in that team that made good use of his/her AoE...is the player with the Knock Back with his/her initial AoE strike.

 

If I inform that player that what that player is doing is hurting the team, and that players considers me judgemental for doing so, then I will without hesitation remove said player. That player absolutely is a bad player. That is a player who only plays for themselves, even though they willingly joined and became part of a team. When you join a team, you subscribe to playing in a team friendly way.  I'm sure this is not how you play, but at some point you have to admit, this is a very good example of a bad player.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Solarverse

[Rylas]

49 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Some are, based on the militant way in which they choose to run groups, IME.

The moment a star holder in CoH starts with any 'house rules', I drop, ubless we are just confirming it's a speed run or not.

Communication is key - feel free to let players like me know the leader is stick in the mud before we begin, that's always better.

 

The only issue here is judgemental players.

People trying to convince us that players that play the game a different way are 'bad' are the problem.

Just a bunch of haters that cannot abide anyone not doing things thier way, IMO.

 

This is nothing new.

These hateful players have been trying to me how to play games the 'right' way for about 40 years now.

They end up, IME, sitting in a corner in the game shop all alone, or with one or to other judgemental players, while the rest of us are laughing and enjoying a fun game of something.

Seen it in online games, MTG, Battletech, PnP games, all of them.

Some people simply cannot abide other players not conforming to the 'herd'.

 

I will keep on having a ton of fun in my life, these players have no power over me, I rant on forums like this to support other players that, like me, choose thier own path and do not choose to follow the herd.

Yeeeah, none of that is what I was asking about. The closest you came to it was with "communication is key". And as long as you're communicating to people they may want to visit Null the Gull before getting started on something that takes a lot of time, then I'd say you've done your part. Not terribly dictatorish in my opinion. I'm guessing you... agree??

Edited October 30, 2019 by Rylas

[Inverted]

12 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Ah armchair shrinking, how very civil of you. You know so much as suggesting someone has a mental disorder is very much against these forums rules right? You basically undermine yourself as some kind of good sort by making such statements.

 

I did regret posting that, after thinking about it.

 

[Gravitus]

For the record , if I was using a power Or tactic no one could do anything about and it was causing the team to lose or tons of frustration , I’d play ball.  Frustration usually meaning making us almost lose or a colossal slow down .
 

But this isn’t the case. People can turn off group fly and saying you or others are ignorant on how to Turn it off isnt a pass to ridicule someone else for using it. (especially when it benefits their build on a map that’s got no roof) This is literally a scenario where both parties can have it their way . Back on live I would have been more selective just because people didn’t have an option.
 

As far as KB, while it may technically slow things down I think it’s a fun mechanic. And it doesn’t slow things down so much that anyone needs to cry. This game is still easy to steamroll regardless.

 

Someone said earlier that the ability to herd mobs is just taking advantage of poor/ancient AI and at that point you’re playing for time v profit. It can definitely be argued that’s not how everyone wants to play. Unless the whole team is constantly wiping, there is no real reason to knock people who use KB. 

[Solarverse]

41 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

 This game is still easy to steamroll regardless.

This is because people are playing everything on +0 these days throughout the leveling process. People want to steamroll, even if it means crappy xp. Players have gotten spoiled as time has went by. I remember a time when nobody ran anything under +2. Now I have to write out a paragraph to my teams explaining why I roll +1 just to keep them from complaining about it before I even start a Task Force.

 

The game is only easy because players want it to be easy.

 

Just wanted to add that in there to go along with what you wrote.

[jubakumbi]

3 hours ago, Rylas said:

Yeeeah, none of that is what I was asking about. The closest you came to it was with "communication is key". And as long as you're communicating to people they may want to visit Null the Gull before getting started on something that takes a lot of time, then I'd say you've done your part. Not terribly dictatorish in my opinion. I'm guessing you... agree??

If 'helping' people in-game with data is your thing, that's awesome.

Telling players not to use powers because they offend the team just means I will drop the team.

The last thing I need is some random people telling me how to enjoy my spare time, or listening to them rant about others 'ruining' thier precious team.

 

3 hours ago, Solarverse said:

If I inform that player that what that player is doing is hurting the team, and that players considers me judgemental for doing so, then I will without hesitation remove said player. That player absolutely is a bad player. That is a player who only plays for themselves, even though they willingly joined and became part of a team. When you join a team, you subscribe to playing in a team friendly way.  I'm sure this is not how you play, but at some point you have to admit, this is a very good example of a bad player.

We fundamentally disagree that there is such a thing as a bad player, it is that simple.

The whole idea of kicking anyone out of a team for anything other than something like direct harassment, link-dead, etc., is silly from my PoV and shows a lack of maturity, emapathy, and patience on the part of the kickers.

I have felt this way from the very frst code I ran into that allowed players to be kicked.

[Rylas]

2 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

If 'helping' people in-game with data is your thing, that's awesome.

Telling players not to use powers because they offend the team just means I will drop the team.

The last thing I need is some random people telling me how to enjoy my spare time, or listening to them rant about others 'ruining' thier precious team.

You're singing an opera to the choir. Pretty sure I clearly stated I'm all for letting people play how they play. 

 

What I was talking about isn't so much about helping people with data. It's about creating teamwork. Informing people of something before teaming is a good way to create teamwork. Especially if its something they may have to avoid through means they aren't aware of (such as Null the Gull). A good team experience is on everybody. So long as you do your part about informing, then you've done all you need to as far as I'm concerned. 

[jubakumbi]

1 minute ago, Rylas said:

You're singing an opera to the choir. Pretty sure I clearly stated I'm all for letting people play how they play. 

 

What I was talking about isn't so much about helping people with data. It's about creating teamwork. Informing people of something before teaming is a good way to create teamwork. Especially if its something they may have to avoid through means they aren't aware of (such as Null the Gull). A good team experience is on everybody. So long as you do your part about informing, then you've done all you need to as far as I'm concerned. 

Well, I am still the bad guy in your world, because I generally don't tell anyone anything about the game, in-game. 🙂

I have already been vilianized on these forums for the outlook, but I am a person that turns off the Help channel in all games, first thing.

IMO, if you are playing an Internet based game, you have access to the Internet, so why try to make people that have found the time to play be subjected to having to stop playing to tell others how to play, when that data is all over the Internet for the player to find with thier own energy and time.

I don't say anything in-game about it, if people want to talk about whatever, that's cool, I just tune it out and kill pixels.

From my PoV, it is simply a social fox-paw to do this in-game...not as mean as kicking people for living up to someone's exacting standards of playing the game, but still kind of rude...

 

I agree a good team experience is on everybody.

I make a great teammate, IME.

Part of what makes me a great teammate is knowing when to walk away from controling people and teams. (Not teams with Controllers, that rocks.)

[Solarverse]

13 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

If 'helping' people in-game with data is your thing, that's awesome.

Telling players not to use powers because they offend the team just means I will drop the team.

The last thing I need is some random people telling me how to enjoy my spare time, or listening to them rant about others 'ruining' thier precious team.

 

We fundamentally disagree that there is such a thing as a bad player, it is that simple.

The whole idea of kicking anyone out of a team for anything other than something like direct harassment, link-dead, etc., is silly from my PoV and shows a lack of maturity, emapathy, and patience on the part of the kickers.

I have felt this way from the very frst code I ran into that allowed players to be kicked.

So you don't care if you are completely making things extremely difficult for the rest of the team, just because this is how you wish to play? So you believe that when you join somebody else's team, that they should rearrange how they play to fit your play style? You feel that teams should just deal with how you want to play and revolve around your play style and if they don't, they somehow lack empathy? What about your empathy for the team that you joined?

 

I am really having a hard time seeing things in a justified way through your eyes...even after putting myself in your shoes, I can see nothing but wrong on so many levels with this.

[Seed22]

On 10/28/2019 at 5:04 PM, Gravitus said:

The fact that null exists is really the only reason I need. If it was a power that you could literally do nothing about Id understand but it isn’t . 
 

Forgetting to go to null isn’t my problem .

 

but also I have every right to give my build every conceivable advantage, which group fly objectively does for bots.

 

Any accommodations I may make would simply be an optional courtesy and not deserving of ridicule if I opt out. 
 

For the record most people took my side on the BAF , but the fact we had to set aside 5 minutes in the group to talk about it was annoying. Go figure none of the people bitching about it where MM either . 
 

I hope people can read this and maybe not attempt to ridicule the next person who uses group fly needlessly.

Not KNOWING about null the gull would be the issue here imo. I personally know of him but I know for sure i've had to tell a lot of people about him myself for alignment changes. Also, quick question; did you use GF during the prisoner escape near the doors or away from them?

[Seed22]

On 10/28/2019 at 5:15 PM, Gravitus said:

Like I said , if it was a power you could do nothing about id understand . Back on live I never used it for that reason. So I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make .

 

if people have made it to incarnate trials and don’t know what null is, I have no sympathy. Their ignorance isn’t an excuse to act like an ass.

Understand this:  Null the gull IS NOT NECESSARY TO HIT LEVEL 50. It is NOT their priority to know about it because you can GET TO 50 without ever once having to set foot in PD or switch sides. Imagine that

[jubakumbi]

14 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

So you don't care if you are completely making things extremely difficult for the rest of the team, just because this is how you wish to play? So you believe that when you join somebody else's team, that they should rearrange how they play to fit your play style? You feel that teams should just deal with how you want to play and revolve around your play style and if they don't, they somehow lack empathy? What about your empathy for the team that you joined?

 

I am really having a hard time seeing things in a justified way through your eyes...even after putting myself in your shoes, I can see nothing but wrong on so many levels with this.

How many times do I have to type 'if something about the team is not my liking, or if people are complaining, I leave the team.'

Where, anywhere, anytime, have I said I will force my viewpoint on th team?

Where have I even insinuated I would continue on a team that dislikes my presence?

I simply leave teams that decide to be unfun, be it a complaint about KB, Group Fly, Herding, Not Herding, and any other useless drama that people cannot seem to leave out of video games.

 

Again, you, like so many others, are just determined to make me a Villian for simply not wanting to interact with mean people, from my PoV.

[Rylas]

10 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Well, I am still the bad guy in your world, because I generally don't tell anyone anything about the game, in-game. 🙂

I have already been vilianized on these forums for the outlook, but I am a person that turns off the Help channel in all games, first thing.

IMO, if you are playing an Internet based game, you have access to the Internet, so why try to make people that have found the time to play be subjected to having to stop playing to tell others how to play, when that data is all over the Internet for the player to find with thier own energy and time.

I don't say anything in-game about it, if people want to talk about whatever, that's cool, I just tune it out and kill pixels.

From my PoV, it is simply a social fox-paw to do this in-game...not as mean as kicking people for living up to someone's exacting standards of playing the game, but still kind of rude...

To each their own, but expecting people to have as much free time to learn everything possible about a game that has WAY too much to be able to know everything about sounds a bit unrealistic. I only have so much time I can give to playing this game or learning anything about it. Turning off a Group Fly option through Null the Gull is such a nuanced situation, that it seems pretty unfair to put it solely on others that they "should have known". 

 

I wouldn't call you a bad guy, though. But from how you're presenting yourself, I don't see you as being a "great teammate" either. I think "great" would at least require a willingness to be helpful. And removing oneself from a team (while wise and something I've done myself), by default does not make one a "great teammate" because you've removed yourself from even being a teammate at all. 

[jubakumbi]

6 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Understand this:  Null the gull IS NOT NECESSARY TO HIT LEVEL 50. It is NOT their priority to know about it because you can GET TO 50 without ever once having to set foot in PD or switch sides. Imagine that

Understand This: It is not nessasary to tell other players what powers not to use, imagine that, nor is it nessasary for me to change how I play the game just because some uptight person thinks I am doing it 'wrong'. 🙂 

[jubakumbi]

2 minutes ago, Rylas said:

To each their own, but expecting people to have as much free time to learn everything possible about a game that has WAY too much to be able to know everything about sounds a bit unrealistic. I only have so much time I can give to playing this game or learning anything about it. Turning off a Group Fly option through Null the Gull is such a nuanced situation, that it seems pretty unfair to put it solely on others that they "should have known". 

 

I wouldn't call you a bad guy, though. But from how you're presenting yourself, I don't see you as being a "great teammate" either. I think "great" would at least require a willingness to be helpful. And removing oneself from a team (while wise and something I've done myself), by default does not make one a "great teammate" because you've removed yourself from even being a teammate at all. 

My definition of a great teammate is one that brings the lest amount of drama - if I am not there, I cause no drama with my 'bad' playing, nor do I make a scene ruining the vibe for attacking the fun-haters in team chat. 🙂

 

On teams, I am happy to make a trategy if needed, etc., I simply do not wish to spend my own precious time explaining mechanics and rules, when there are better version already written that I got my data from...since there are so many 'helpers' in CoH, it's never realy been an issue.

[Solarverse]

8 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Again, you, like so many others, are just determined to make me a Villian for simply not wanting to interact with mean people, from my PoV.

You are the Darth Vader of video games!

 

In all seriousness, I have no complaints if that's what you do. Not a villain as far as I am concerned. 

[Seed22]

On 10/29/2019 at 1:59 PM, jubakumbi said:

If your enjoyment is diminished and you stay anyway, you have chosen to enjoy being diminished, IMO.

You have the choice to leave a team that, for any reson, is no fun for you.

If you choose to be a silent martyr, that's on you, not the other players.

I form the teams usually. Im not leaving. You are, by a fun lil' boot 😀. Act an ass and you're gone. NO NEGOTIATIONS.

[Rylas]

5 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

My definition of a great teammate is one that brings the lest amount of drama - if I am not there, I cause no drama with my 'bad' playing, nor do I make a scene ruining the vibe for attacking the fun-haters in team chat. 🙂

 

On teams, I am happy to make a trategy if needed, etc., I simply do not wish to spend my own precious time explaining mechanics and rules, when there are better version already written that I got my data from...since there are so many 'helpers' in CoH, it's never realy been an issue.

In the highly nuanced situation of what OP was talking about, is that really that time consuming to say "oh, hit up Null the Gull and you won't be affected by it"? 

[Seed22]

12 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Understand This: It is not nessasary to tell other players what powers not to use, imagine that, nor is it nessasary for me to change how I play the game just because some uptight person thinks I am doing it 'wrong'. 🙂 

Where did I say to tell people what powers they can and can't use. I said:

 

12 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Understand this:  Null the gull IS NOT NECESSARY TO HIT LEVEL 50. It is NOT their priority to know about it because you can GET TO 50 without ever once having to set foot in PD or switch sides. Imagine that

Wanted to make it as big as possible. Im sure you can't read basic font at it's regular size so this SHOULD help. Lemme know if it needs pretty colors or something to help

 

Edit: I just realized you probably didn't comprehend what I was trying to say, this was about the actual NPC and expecting people to know where it is, not about groupfly or whatever. Just wanted to be 100% clear on that.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Seed22

[jubakumbi]

4 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Where did I say to tell people what powers they can and can't use. I said:

 

Wanted to make it as big as possible. Im sure you can't read basic font at it's regular size so this SHOULD help. Lemme know if it needs pretty colors or something to help

 

Edit: I just realized you probably didn't comprehend what I was trying to say, this was about the actual NPC and expecting people to know where it is, not about groupfly or whatever. Just wanted to be 100% clear on that.

You were trying to say what you said - the game never grabs the player by the hand and takes them to the bird.

So?

No one took (most?) players by the hand to all kinds of things in the game that they learn just fine, including how to tell other players 'they are doing it wrong', etc.

You are implying that because nothing in the game explicitly tells the player how to turn off things they don't like via the bird, that it's OK for those players, in turn, to tell others to turn off powers and be 'justified', even if that was not your intent...IMO.

So, I think I got it just fine, thanks.