I Want to Talk About Buffing Mercs

[Shazbotacus]

TL;DR

Mercs damage and survivability are both horrible. Recharge seriously needs to go down on CC powers for them to be worth anything to Mercs survivability, and damage needs to go up for Soldiers and Commando so stuff actually dies in a timely manner. For a more in-depth rework, keep reading.

When City of Villains first came out, my penchant for soldier themed characters naturally lead me right to Mercs. Mercs/Traps, to be specific. Since that moment Mercs has been... fairly behind. Many consider it the worst of the lot for Mastermind primaries, though I won't at all refute that Ninjas needs help as well, possibly even Beasts though I'm not experienced with them at all. I would leave suggestions for fixing Ninjas and Beasts to those more knowledgeable, but I do know Mercs, and I have played Necromancy, Robotics, and especially Thugs to contrast Mercs and their overall strength against some of the best Masterminds have to offer. Before we really get going though, any talk about getting rid of brawl invariably steers into dealing with AI, so let's not worry about that. As nice as it would be, this is a topic for Masterminds as a whole rather than just this set. So, for this thread at least, let's get started on retraining the old Mercenaries, getting them back through boot camp if we gotta, and making them fighting fit, because they sure as heck ain't cutting it now.

What's wrong?

So, what have I gotta say. First I guess we should introduce what's wrong with them into the conversation, and that can be summed to low damage and survivability. Well, I believe it would be possible to help Mercenaries to at least a passable state with some numbers tweaks, however it would be preferable to involve more effort in giving Mercs some better defined strengths, for in their current state they have none. There's really a lot of things that can be done, and I do recommend several, if not all, of the measures I'm about to put on the table be at least considered.

T1 Fixes.

Comparing Thugs and Mercs in T1, Soldiers are behind Punks and this gap can be shortened by dealing with Soldiers' activation times. As far as damage per activation cycle, for the T1s three attacks, Punks are at 2.07, 1.6, and 0.88 while Mercs do 1.39, 1.34, and 0.81. So I figure the best way to do this is a Soldier of Arachnos treatment: change their attack progression to single shot, burst, and heavy burst. Activation times become 0.9, 1, and 2.67 respectively, and that would help much but alone it might not be enough because just doing this without touching total damage or recharge, their damage per activation time goes to 1.76, 1.58, and 0.96. The third attack is helped somewhat above Punks' empty clips, but its 5' arc is still pitiful, and the third attack remains well behind Punks' single pistol shot. I might go so far as to say that we should just make them all single target and, in addition to changing the powers to the activation times and animations of single shot, burst, and heavy burst, upping the damage of the first and third attack to a target damage per activation cycle of about 2 and 1.6 respectively. I would then put the full duty of area effect damage on the shoulders of the Commando. As for the Medic, I would have him follow the same attack string, and that would certainly mean losing Frag Grenade. I might even go so far to suggest that his Stimulant be given an area effect and regeneration component even if it must replace the status protection and/or his heal power be given a self heal component as well. I believe this would go a ways to making slotting healing in Soldiers be worth more, and helping with survivability.

 

T2 Fixes

Spec Ops powers imply they should help survivability in the same way the Lich does: debuffs and CC. I do not think damage should be their primary focus; these men should stun and cripple enemies so the Soldiers and Commando can focus on inflicting casualties with a minimum of return fire to survive through. You can do much for Spec Ops by simply making their attack chain like what was suggested for Soldiers, going single shot -> burst -> heavy burst all single target instead of burst -> heavy burst -> snipe, and shortening the recharge time on their CC grenades, especially tear gas and stun so they can more consistently weaken the enemy's offense, but if it's possible I would rather suggest an overhaul, and I'll do my best to explain each power I pick for them:

Base:

Brawl: You know the drill.

Single Shot: Same as Soldiers. Use that amazing sound from the silenced snipe here.

Cryo Grenade: Replaces Web Grenade for a 15ft or so area effect power that focuses purely on being a movement and recharge debuff by 50% for 30 seconds and at 30 seconds of recharge, slowing the enemy's pace of fire and weakening their offense and with almost permanent up time.

Equip Mercenary:

Burst: Same as Soldiers.

Stun Grenade: Plain mag 2 stun, devoted entirely to being a hard CC that shuts minions up by itself, or bosses as well with the second Spec Ops, for a base duration of 6 seconds and a quick recharge of 30 seconds. Much, much better up time than Flashbang Grenade, and almost as good as Protector Bots' Photon Grenade.

Tactical Upgrade:

Heavy Burst OR Rifle Butt OR Shockwave Grenade: (Heavy Burst) Same as Soldiers. (Rifle Butt) I edited this in after work, okay, but just hear me out on this. We already have stun, slow, and either -damage or -to hit, possibly both, but Air Superiority has taught us that Knockdown is excellent soft CC as well. That's exactly what this new Rifle Butt will do: guaranteed knockdown on a very fast recharge, maybe 6-8 seconds, with trivial damage. Two Spec Ops will just juggle someone. It'd be hilarious. (Shockwave Grenade) Basically the Rifle Butt I suggested but in targeted area effect form. No damage at all, strictly knockdown, on a fairly quick recharge of, say, 16-20 seconds or around that ball park.

Tear Gas Grenade: Loses CC to focus solely on being a strong debuff not subject to the binary on/off nature of CC, crippling either damage by -25% or ToHit by -12.5% for 30 seconds and at 45 seconds of recharge. This is to provide a weakening effect on the enemy's offense between hard CC, with greater up time, especially against enemies that might be outside the realm of being reliably stunned anyways such as arch-villains. Doing -To Hit would mean something to enhance, but also possibly additional slot pressure.

 

T3 Fixes

Commando, to me, could use better AoE damage. I imagine damage should be this one's singular focus. You can accomplish this by simply taking down LRM Rocket's absurd recharge and upping the damage of M30 Grenade; the end result should be much better damage per second on area effect. Activation times should also be reduced to match those endured by Assault Rifle players. However, if at any point a rework becomes worth considering, I have a personal attachment to the idea of replacing the Commando's weapon to a grenade launcher and giving him... this:
Base:

Brawl: Except it's a good attack now.

Anti-Tank Grenade: This shaped charge bores through its target with a jet of molten copper for extreme single-target fire damage.

Frag Grenade: Single hit of decent smash/lethal damage in an area around the target.

Equip Mercenary:

Pummel: Rifle butt style attack, straight smashing damage.

Incendiary Grenade: Long-lasting and very high fire damage-over-time applied to enemies in an area around the target.

Tactical Upgrade:

"Bayonet" Smash: Straight smashing damage melee attack by ramming the grenade launcher into the target like a battering ram.

Poison Gas Grenade: Assault Bot's incendiary missiles but with poison instead of fire, potentially devastating to mass groups of immobilized enemies.

Well, that was a lot to read through and I thank you if you did. Really, though, I want people talking about this. I love Mercs as a concept but they really do need help. Bring up your own ideas, or perhaps even refine what I've brought up? Well, as long as it's getting discussed really. Truthfully, some tweaks to numbers would be sufficient alone in getting each merc tier to be a functional piece of a successful whole next to the other sets like Robotics and Thugs.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Shazbotacus

[Bossk_Hogg]

Yup, mercs need a buff. The AI is simply too stupid to use their powers well, be it the narrow full auto cone or long cooldown CC's. More AE grenades over narrow cones would help. Serum needs to be cottaged into something useful. 

 

I honestly don't know why they've languished in such a state. They've been almost universally regarded as ass tier since they were released, but the devs don't seem to care. Good luck man!

[Shazbotacus]

Ugh, I forgot to mention Serum. I had this idea of having it changed to a chemical grenade thrown at a henchman with an area effect buff of some sort, perhaps a powerful regeneration effect, maybe even recovery as well. I called it the Aerosolized Regeneration Serum. Personally, though, if I could really give an F U to the "cottage rule," I mean it's literally named after an asinine strawman argument but I digress, I'd change it to summon either a friggin' Sky Skiff or a soldier in flying power armor with a rocket or grenade launcher. In either case the result should be a brief but furious salvo of scorched earth levels of damage before the pet teleports back to base to re-arm and refuel as a very lengthy recharge.

[MetaVileTerror]

Sounds like an agreeable set of proposals, Shaz, though I'd personally make a few small tweaks based on my own preferences.

I'm all about gimmicks, generally.  I like solutions to be outside of the box, and as far from a DPS "meta" as possible (unless we're talking about Fire sets, at which point the gimmick /is/ DPS, with ticks).  To that end, I'd suggest offering up some more minor Debuff and Control aspects.  

 

The generic Soldiers already get some decently hefty -Defense Debuffs, but they don't stack as much as I think they should.  The problem I face is trying to find something thematically appropriate to add in.  Perhaps give them Beanbag or that new Disorienting Shot at the second upgrade level, so they can really lay down the Stun along side the Spec Ops.

They could also benefit from a very minor -Max HP Debuff, perhaps, to simulate the overwhelming nature of loading your opponents down with lead.  And I'm talking minor enough that you'd need a couple of Merc Masterminds working together with level 18+ Soldiers to get to the point of seriously terrifying impact.  If not -Max HP, then . . . something.

Your suggestions for the Medic are pretty solid, and I'd replace the Frag Grenade with a Smoke Grenade.  Provide the Medic with a Placate in an AoE, so he stops dying first all the time, while also debuffing enemy Perception and To-Hit.  Lard-knows that the minor and unpredictable Knockback of the Frag 'nade isn't helpful.

 

Another potential gimmicky solution is for the Soldiers or the Medic to be given a deployable cover:  https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeployableCover

Longish cooldown, but when they drop it, it grants a positional Defense to Ranged attacks in a small area immediately around it.  This bonus Defense could be for the Henchpets exclusively.  It should also be targettable and destroyable, with medium-to-high Hit Points. 

Alternatively, this could be the replacement to Serum, if we feel that thing is just too much of a pain in the ass to keep.

 

I like the Spec Ops a lot.  They feel like the metric by which the rest of the Mercenaries should be measured.  I'd be deeply grateful if the cooldowns on Flash Bang and Tear Gas could be reduced, but it's not the end of the world if they're where they need to stay.

 

The Commando isn't bad, but does feel as if he's just not pumping out the damage it feels like he should.  Perhaps if he had either a Defiance or Scourge mechanic built in?

 

Serum is just a royal pain in the ass.  That crash makes it more reasonable to simply dismiss your Commando at the end of Serum's effect, and then resummon and re-equipt.  But honestly, with all that effort, it still doesn't ever feel /worth/ it.  I sort of appreciate Serum being a "skippable" so I can save on Power choices and dedicate the Slots to somewhere else.  Still, would be nice to have something here which is nice and thematic, but also meaningful to the Mercenaries Set.  

Hell, if we could have Serum replaced with an AoE Toggle which Immobilizes all your Henchmen, I would not complain.  Of course, the better solution is figuring out a way to prevent ranged Henchpets from running in to melee.

The other idea is to replace Serum with an "Additional Reinforcements" Power, which summons one additional Spec Op if you have them targetted, or one additional Soldier and one additional Medic if you have one of them targetted.  This, of course, would open all sorts of cans of worms, with things such as Bodyguard Mode being impacted . . . but /that/ could be Mercenaries gimmick!  Granting the Merc-Mastermind the option between 80% Damage Resistance instead of the standard 75% with additional healing, or 77.7~% Resistance with the extra Control/Debuffing of an extra Spec Ops.

And I get it . . . there are people out there who feel that Mercs' only problem is a lack of damage output, and additional Soldiers and Spec Ops won't solve that as much as other solutions might . . . but can we please get away from focusing on a DPS meta already?  This game has -SO- much more to offer us, particularly when we embrace creative solutions.

[Shazbotacus]

I actually do feel you on the focus on DPS. Star Trek Online is a friggin' DPS race. Their damage could stand to be better, but truthfully I have a dream of Mercs being closer to Necromancy: relatively lower damage, though perhaps still a bit more than it is now, and with its greatest strength being sturdiness through healing and massive, crippling offense debuffs and CC that together make the henchmen have very high staying power. When it comes to Necromancy, the henchmen are quite specialized; zombies are great bodyguard fodder, grave knights do excellent single target damage, and the Lich provides the aforementioned "massive, crippling offense debuffs and CC." I'd like to see Mercs do that but with Spec Ops doing that CC/Debuff, AoE damage handled by Commando, and single-target combat and bodyguard done best by Soldiers, and healing done by Medic. To do that, Medic and Spec Ops primarily need help with shutting down their enemy, and I gotta say I friggin' love the idea of Medic having a smoke grenade with placate.

I'd be fine with replacing Spec Ops Heavy Burst with yet another CC or debuff to this end, although Beanbag is all I can think of unless someone's got a good idea. As for additional debuff effects, well... sometimes I think Mercs, or at least Soldiers, should have Beam Rifles. Primarily because Beam Rifle animations would have them fire their weapon from the shoulder rather than from the hip. If at least the first two T1 Soldiers had Beam Rifle and Disintegrate, that'd be strong -regen for the set for dealing with AVs.

[MetaVileTerror]

I'd rather not get Beam Rifle in to the mix of Mercenaries.  They should be reserved for their own Mastermind Primary Set.  Something like Alien Invaders . . . although that's probably too niche.  Regardless, I think it merits its own thread so it doesn't pollute the discussion of how to help save Mercs.

 

Another idea which just dawned on me is the possibility of Soldiers getting a gimmick in the form of the Medic getting a Henchman-specific Revive.  That way, even with the Soldiers' squishiness, the Medic can compensate, and save the Mastermind the pain and effort of resummoning and re-equpiting the Mercs.

[Shazbotacus]

Medic having a revive, hm. Upgrades look like they are shed when a henchman is KO'd though, wonder if there's a way to keep them on. It could be interesting if it works though. If that can't work then that might be... a replacement for Serum? "Reinforcement?" Like Soul Extraction, a reinforcing power that targets the fallen henchman and, uh, summons... another Medic? Or maybe something else depending on what died?

I know that other /coxg/ server made some really crazy, radical changes to Mercs, one of which was making Medic his own power while getting rid of all his attacks, and the second upgrade, and other crazy stuff. Medic with absolutely no attack powers and purely focused on healing with better powers to do that would be a nice thing to me.

[General Idiot]

Not specifically mercs, but one change made on another server I'd love to see here is making all the mastermind upgrade powers automatic - instead of having to upgrade every time you resummon pets for any reason, it's just an auto power that upgrades any nearby pet every few seconds if it's not already upgraded. The only downside is it takes away the option of not upgrading specific pets, though I'd argue that was already done when the upgrades became AoE given how finicky it is to exclude a single pet from being upgraded as is.

[Shazbotacus]

/coxg/ did a lot of friggin' crazy stuff. But they did stuff. They made improvements, or at least an effort to do so.

[Shadowsleuth]

 

Turn Serum into an AoE buff, remove the crash, lower the recharge time & make it non-stackable.

 

For the Medic replace his grenade power with either the Force Field Generator or Triage Beacon from Traps.  
Increase the damage on the other soldiers to compensate for the loss of the damage from the grenade.

 

Choosing between FF Generator or Triage Beacon for the Medic; FF Generator would do a better job at keeping them alive (& it would fit the role of MetaVileTerror's Deployable Cover), just increase its movement speed to keep up with them.

 

The rest of the suggestions in the thread sound good.

[MetaVileTerror]

"Increase the damage on the other soldiers to compensate for the loss of the damage from the grenade."
-What- damage?

Seriously, all that thing is right now is an aggro magnet for the Medic, who ends up getting melted seconds after tossing it if you don't have some means of keeping him alive.  And since the Medic is melted, he's not healing or dealing damage, and the grenade actually translates to a drop in damage over time.

 

But, yeah, I do suppose that Force Field Generator already /is/ Deployable Cover . . . no need for me to reinvent the wheel there.

[Shazbotacus]

Giving Mercs a FFG? Sky Raiders do it, I suppose. Though I have an interest in focusing on Medic’s healing to make enhancing it more worthwhile. Hm.

 

This makes me think that Commando can be good for more than just raw damage, and right now only slotting for accuracy and damage is worth doing for him, so if a FFG were added to Mercs, I might move the FFG over to him since he’s more likely to survive, and by extension his FFG as well, and 6-slotting him becomes more worthwhile especially with level 50 basic IOs. As with most pet-sourced buffs, I might replace the dispersion bubble with some more subtle radiating circle effect like a Circle of Thorns crystal that only applies the 7.5-10% or so defense bubbles on the player’s mercs and maybe the player himself. I’ve been interested in seeing Mercs focus more on staying power than damage overall; this fits that pretty well.

 

Or if we stick with Medic, because Triage Beacon is annoyingly immobile, I might replace it with a, uh... “Triage Generator” that boosts nearby Mercs’ regeneration. In addition to doing what I previously said, of course, like changing Stimulant to an AoE possibly with a regen component and maybe having Medkit do a self heal as well.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Shazbotacus

[MetaVileTerror]

 . . . damn.
I try to pride myself on being able to think outside the box, but it never occurred to me to have a Triage Generator before!  It's perfect!

[Galaxy Brain]

I think COXG gave the commando the ability to summon 2 more soldiers as back up, something like that could be sweet.

[Dragon Crush]

Triage generator, combining the two, or just adding generator's mobility to beacon? I'd be in favor of combining them. If it could be coded to work on all pets and you, just not other players you'd bring something to the table when with other MMs. If triage generator I'd drop the regen slightly (125%-135% before enhancements maybe) in exchange for the added benefit of it following you around.

 

Or make it FF beacon (again, I'm in favor of combo) and change it to 30 second duration, 40 second recharge to better keep up with moving team. If something could be coded to encourage mercs to stay in the bubble all the better, might keep them back and not charging in all the time.

Also I'd say make the heal and stimulant targeted AoE, with AoE range slightly bigger than cast range, so while medic might not be able to directly heal himself, he'll always be healed while healing another. That or increase the range on both a good deal and have it heal/stimulant him same time he casts it on another.

 

Honestly I stopped playing my last merc MM before he got commando, so can't comment too well on what to add to him.

[Shazbotacus]

If it’s for the Medic, just the mobility with only the regen buff I figure. Although as a T1 pet, I’d probably rather have him with a suite of healing abilities, like one single target, an area effect heal or regen buff, maybe just take Stimulant and make that area effect possibly with a regen component or changed to regen entirely. Definitely no area effect attacks, maybe try him with two attacks with the Council Rifleman’s animation, so 2.67 seconds of activation time, and like 3 seconds of recharge so those get cycled rather than him getting tempted to brawl.

[Dragon Crush]

Maybe make the defense from combo generator un-enhanceable so it won't split focus from slotting healing and won't get people who don't play mercs complaining they were given another place to slot LotG +rech.

And yeah, removing grenade from medic sounds good, though others brought it up and don't recall seeing anyone against it so didn't feel the need to mention it again. Maybe give them a single target shot with KD so as to keep IO options where they are.

[MetaVileTerror]

You know, I may be jinxing it, but . . . it's a rarity to see everyone agreeing with one another in a thread like this, while also sharing and developing one another's good ideas.

 

I like this feeling!

[Shazbotacus]

Oof, finally outta work. Yeah, there's one thing most players can agree on: mercs need help.

[Galaxy Brain]

I do think that some of the underperforming MM sets could use some out of the box cottage-demolishing. Serum needs to be replaced (Gun Drone? 👀) and the medic should have different powers and no grenade to draw aggro. If Serum isn't outright replaced, making it either a "3rd" upgrade of sorts would be awesome.

 

Some method to call in reinforcements would be thematic too.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Shazbotacus]

Yeah, I admit I have no regard at all for the "cottage rule." There are several possibilities for sure; many different things can be done. AoE Serum, I suggested an AoE Regeneration buff, or calling in a Sky Skiff to friggin' strafe your target with rockets like an airstrike... I'm particularly attached to calling in a Sky Skiff airstrike. Bottom line is sky's the limit if people let it be.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Shazbotacus

[MetaVileTerror]

The only thing we need to be mindful of is that we don't step on Thugs' toes.  Once Henchpet customization gets finalized and implemented on Homecoming (... come on Devs, don't let this one pass you by!), then the main differences between Thugs and Mercenaries will be Powers of the Sets and not just the looks.  "Reinforcements" seems too Thugs'ish to me, personally.  I really like the high-tech solutions that are being suggested.  Gun Drone, Force Field Generator, Triage Drone.  

 

Hell!  Maybe that's it!  Replace Serum entirely with a "Drone Support" Power.  Still single-target with a long cooldown, but it gives the selected Henchman a unique Drone to deploy.  

Give the Spec Ops an Acid Mortar.

The Commando gets a Gun Drone.

The Medic either gets Force Field Generator or the newly invented Triage Drone.

and . . . hmm . . . common Soldiers . . . what should they get?  What kind of simple Drone is appropriate for a simple Soldier to deploy?

[MetaVileTerror]

Idea came to me minute after I posted:
Common Soldiers could get a Targeting Drone which provides +To-Hit and +Damage to all other Henchmen and the Mastermind (but not Teammates).

 

Thus the player gets a signature Power in "Drone Support" which grants them immense versatility, while still being thematic.  They can choose which of the Henchmen get the Support, and in turn get to decide whether it'll be:  

Mobile +To-Hit and +Damage for just them and the Henchmen.

Mobile +Regen.

Immobile -Defense and -Resistance Debuffs on enemies.

Immobile raw Damage output in Cones.

 

This would also give them a certain "Malta-ness," which I don't think is a bad thing for the Mercenaries Set to have, personally.

[Shazbotacus]

Oh, I have no doubt Mercs will still stand out from Thugs. So a drone summon based on the target, much like Soul Extraction. That's... heck, that's pretty cool. I can dig it. "Malta-ness," I've envied their tactical kit for the longest time. I've been wanting to "Malta-fy" Mercs for a while in costume at least.

[Shazbotacus]

Seeing the thread asking for a Ninjas buff reminds me Mercs could use one even more. So I'm going to shamelessly bump this thread as I do genuinely want to see Mercs given the buff they desperately need.