Going forward, can we have more things that mean something?

[Hero_of_Light]

(Update at the bottom)

 

I feel like theres a push towards not earning things. There's no costumes to earn, no prestige powers to earn, no archetypes to earn... thankfully accolades aren't autounlocked for everyone on character creation with instant 50s everywhere.

 

I'm not saying remove anything that's already done, but as examples: seeing Nemises staffs used to mean something, seeing brutes on hero side or defenders on villain side used to mean something, seeing vanguard armor used to mean something. Heck, seeing capes kind of ment something lol

 

Not everything needs to be behind a 'grind wall' as some might say,  but If everything is free or easy, then nothing is special.

 

Going forward, could some of the new stuff be unlocked only after proving your loyalty to a faction, or if you've got this particular badge, or have at least one 50 on your account, or finished a certain story arc, ect?

 

Tldr- 

 

If theres a rikti soldier costume peice for free, that's cool and people can have that.

 

But If I want some costume peices that allow me to look a rikti commander, but require that I finish an undercover rikti story arc to unlock ,I should be able to have that too!

 

It's perfectly in reach for almost every player in the game (I retract the next part) and people telling me im wrong to want that as an option to enjoy are cruel and short sighted bullies.

 

(Update and my comprised idea)

 

 

Not that what i think affects the game but:

 

I could agree on having all costumes peices unlocked for everyone, but it doesn't change my personal view point.

 

I personally look forward to earning new things so I can then make something,  Instantly getting all the costumes I want is boring to me, but I understand not everyone is like that. Insight: I play dark souls as a deprived, but can't expect everyone else to.

 

So, I'll comprising and take everyone into consideration as best I can :

 

A new story arc is released about an ancient sword that is sought after by CoT, along with the sword  as a costume, and  both a temporary power and a permanent power version of that same sword where, when used, your character pulls it out of a dimensional portal, holds it in the air, and lightning strikes in a aoe around you.

 

1- The costume is free for everyone 

 

2- The temp version is for sale at the p2w vendor like many other temp powers but it's ( just a random number, don't freak out) only good for 10 uses.

 

3- The permanent version is award to those that complete the story arc.

 

This way (1) costumers aren't stifled, (2) people cant claim I'm wanting to set a new precedent on Homecoming by having new powers locked or something of that nature, and (3) those of us who want to work for it can get the same thing as everyone else at the p2w vendor, except since we put in some extra work, we don't need to refill its power at the p2w vendor.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Hero_of_Light
Adding tldr part and update

[Lines]

This seems like a continuation of this thread, though I appreciate the specific change of title - it means a lot.

 

 

And I agree with you. The lack of 'push' has been my biggest switch-off from the game recently.

 

I know others will say it hampers their options and creativity. It's a fair argument, but I'll stick to my side of it. I'd rather earn creativity.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Lines

[Itikar]

52 minutes ago, Lines said:

I know others will say it hampers their options and creativity. It's a fair argument, but I'll stick to my side of it. I'd rather earn creativity.

I think there is a certain inconsistency in the argument. This kind of proposals are not really in the direction of letting the authors earn their creativity, because, as stated in the other thread, if they really wanted to do so, they can already earn their creativity through self-discipline. What is truly bad about these proposals is instead that the authors want to restrict the creativity of other people, who might on the other hand not be so happy to "earn" their creativity.

 

Furthermore, since the answer to the above was that "breaking your own leg is not good" how would "breaking a legs of everybody" be any better? Fundamentally, for this proposal to be credible, those who support it should at the very least show that they are capable of self-restraint even before the proposal is implemented. But if they were able to do that, then the proposal would be moot.

 

On top of that, since the other often mentioned reason for this kind of proposal is that it kills the drive to play, I counter that if a game requires a carrot on a stick to keep people glued to it, then it means that the game has much bigger issues than content that requires unlocking. And in that case those issues are worth fixing, not delaying the moment in which the player realizes the game has issues to when they have finally caught the aforementioned carrot. And lastly, one cannot even assume that a game can keep people glued to it at all times, it is just normal that one gets bored of playing the same game over and over again. Now, if this was a commercial MMO, that needs to profit from its users, carrots on sticks might have a sense, but on a private non-profit server? Not even remotely to the same degree.

 

So my position remains the same of the other thread, as long as this unlockable stuff limits the creativity of the average user, I believe the idea is bad.

 

However as long as the unlockable content does NOT include:

- clothing options

- archetypes

- primary and secondary powersets

 

I don't see unlockable content as bad, actually it can be interesting and I think the proposal in this thread has been phrased in a much more sensible way than in the other. The issue here however is that there is already a lot of content like that and it seems reasonable there will be more content like that to come.

 

1 hour ago, Hero_of_Light said:

Going forward, could some of the new stuff be unlocked only after proving your loyalty to a faction, or if you've got this particular badge, or have at least one 50 on your account, or finished a certain story arc, ect?

There are already contacts whose story arcs can be played only after obtaining certain badges, sometimes even badges that require quite a bit of work. These are particularly common on redside, Viridian is a good example of this, so perhaps they could be extended to blueside too. There are already accolades that unlock special powers, and there are story arcs and missions that also give you interesting and often very useful temporary powers. Finally all the incarnate content unlocks only at level 50, and there is a lot to be explored and gained in that too.

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Itikar

[Hero_of_Light]

8 minutes ago, Itikar said:

 

So my position remains the same of the other thread, as long as this unlockable stuff limits the creativity of the average user, I believe the idea is bad.

 

However as long as the unlockable content does NOT include:

- clothing options

- archetypes

- primary and secondary powersets

 

I don't see unlockable content as bad, actually it can be interesting and I think the proposal in this thread has been phrased in a much more sensible way than in the other. The issue here however is that there is already a lot of content like that and it seems reasonable there will be more content like that to come.

 

 

Balance is key. Don't limit our creativity completely in those aspects because others don't want any limits at all on the same aspects. 

 

Variety is the spice of life. I'm not saying every costume piece,  archetype, or power set should be required to be unlocked, but why not have some that are? 

 

Most successful mmos has a mix of all this, why limit CoH to having zero unlockables of that nature? And being that homecoming is trying so hard to be the unofficial offical successor, not including a part of the game that many players loved would be unfaithful to the original game, and the players. 

 

 

 

[MetaVileTerror]

Most of those kinds of unlock mechanics are specifically designed to milk money out of people.  Players' sense of accomplishment is co-opted and exploited to draw them in to prolonged investments for the purpose of drawing out money over time.  Once that investment has been made, the players get caught up in loss aversion behaviour.  People get a certain "high" from the experience; but that doesn't mean that it's good or healthy.

I'm simplifying things here just to get word out here, but those kinds of exploitative efforts and their effects are well-documented at this point, and there are even public speaking events where the exploiters are proudly announcing their achievements in this arena.  

For example:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4

 

If someone has a feeling that they are not being rewarded enough with this game the way it already is, I think they would benefit from some self-reflection after exploring how their psychological needs are being undermined for the benefit of others.

[Itikar]

1 minute ago, Hero_of_Light said:

Variety is the spice of life. I'm not saying every costume piece,  archetype, or power set should be required to be unlocked, but why not have some that are? 

Because some people might not be able to even have a chance to unlock them, and in my humble opinion that would be a limit to the creativity of the playerbase that would not be worth any of the benefits, if any, provided by having them being unlockable.

 

It was pretty fun, for example, to see the creation of the Halloween contest during the event. And some characters that won were very low level, and possibly made by players that who were new. I don't see how having clothing options being unlockable would have benefited the game in such a situation and I am pretty glad the Homecoming Team had taken the decision to leave complete freedom to the creativity of the playerbase. This was precisely one of the main factors that made me choose Homecoming over the other private servers out there in fact.

 

1 minute ago, Hero_of_Light said:

Most successful mmos has a mix of all this, why limit CoH to having zero unlockables of that nature? And being that homecoming is trying so hard to be the unofficial offical successor, not including a part of the game that many players loved would be unfaithful to the original game, and the players. 

Most successful MMOs are ran by companies that need to make a profit, so the comparison is moot. The reason for which I believe Homecoming should not have unlockable of that nature is that they are really not good in the first place for a non-profit free MMO, if anything, precisely to distinguish itself from the commercial ones that put stuff behind grindwall, paywall or both. This is not about being faithful to the original game, especially since there you could unlock a good bunch of that stuff with money, this is about choosing what is best for the majority of users. And I dare say, the fact Homecoming is the most populated server while the servers that have unlockables of the kind you want have very few players, perhaps points at the playerbase of Homecoming actually enjoying stuff the way it is. Otherwise they would play elsewhere, wouldn't they?

 

Then of course I am aware there are other factors, such as more players attracting even more players, or some of the modifications and other improvements. But on the whole I have seen among people who decided to play on Homecoming the freedom of creativity being quoted as one of the main reasons.

[Hero_of_Light]

37 minutes ago, Itikar said:

 

Furthermore, since the answer to the above was that "breaking your own leg is not good" how would "breaking a legs of everybody" be any better? Fundamentally, for this proposal to be credible, those who support it should at the very least show that they are capable of self-restraint even before the proposal is implemented. But if they were able to do that, then the proposal would be moot.

 

Just because people enjoy running obstacle courses someone else built, doesn't mean they should be required to build their own and only use that.

 

I feel that outlook is very limited since its expecting everyone to make thier own challenges because no one should face challenges someone else made.

 

Just because I'm bad at building challenging stages in mario maker doesn't mean I shouldn't enjoy beating the stages someone else built.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Hero_of_Light

[Hero_of_Light]

3 minutes ago, Itikar said:

And I dare say, the fact Homecoming is the most populated server while the servers that have unlockables of the kind you want have very few players, perhaps points at the playerbase of Homecoming actually enjoying stuff the way it is. Otherwise they would play elsewhere, wouldn't they?

Or because its was the first server, the most stable, plus in talks to become more 'official'. 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Hero_of_Light

[MetaVileTerror]

The difference isn't in the obstacle course or the Mario levels, though.  Those still exist, regardless of who built them.
The difference lies in locking anything behind completion of the obstacle course.  The experience of the challenge itself may be the reward without adding further incentive.  

If one is adding further incentive for the challenge, then why?  What merit does it objectively hold beyond artificially stimulating the reward centres of someone's brain?

[Hero_of_Light]

5 minutes ago, Itikar said:

Because some people might not be able to even have a chance to unlock them, and in my humble opinion that would be a limit to the creativity of the playerbase that would not be worth any of the benefits, if any, provided by having them being unlockable.

 

It was pretty fun, for example, to see the creation of the Halloween contest during the event. And some characters that won were very low level, and possibly made by players that who were new. I don't see how having clothing options being unlockable would have benefited the game in such a situation

Then maybe they should spend some time playing the game?

 

Why is it unacceptable to have a few things harder to reach for those that enjoy reaching, just so someone else never needs to reach?

[MunkiLord]

7 minutes ago, Itikar said:

Because some people might not be able to even have a chance to unlock them, and in my humble opinion that would be a limit to the creativity of the playerbase that would not be worth any of the benefits, if any, provided by having them being unlockable.

I disagree here, limitations force people to be more creative and innovative. Working with restrictions to accomplish a goal encourages people to take different approaches and consider options they normally wouldn't. That doesn't mean everybody does or should enjoy various restrictions, especially if they are arbitrary. But I fundamentally disagree that it is a limit on creativity. I think a better way to phrase it would be a limit on expression of creativity, but even then I don't think that is either a good or bad thing by default.

[Hero_of_Light]

15 minutes ago, MetaVileTerror said:

The difference isn't in the obstacle course or the Mario levels, though.  Those still exist, regardless of who built them.
The difference lies in locking anything behind completion of the obstacle course.  The experience of the challenge itself may be the reward without adding further incentive.  

If one is adding further incentive for the challenge, then why?  What merit does it objectively hold beyond artificially stimulating the reward centres of someone's brain?

Then why have prizes for the winners of costume contests? Shouldn't the fact that they won be the only reward?

 

It's just not justified to force everyone down that only path.

 

Why have powers earned on lvl up? Shouldn't I just be happy with the level up?

 

Some people may not be able to mix and match enhancements to the same extent that someone who makes amazing builds can.  Since having enhancements they might never be able to get, or even use to the same extent, why have them?

Edited November 1, 2019 by Hero_of_Light

[MunkiLord]

I think variety is good, I'm with @Hero_of_Light. 

[MetaVileTerror]

There have been costume contests where there aren't "tangible" rewards.  They may have lower attendance, but they do still offer the satisfaction of winning.

If anything, from an anthropological standpoint, the costume contests were a product OF the copious amounts of Inf people had to throw away.  It then developed in to a social trend, and now the socially expected norm for these contests are Inf rewards.  However, there are also temporary titles when they're run by GMs, or Merits or Enhancements.  But none of that is necessary, and we see proof of that any time a contest without prizes is run.

 

The Powers upon level-up is a hold over from when the game was designed, but we see now that there are other avenues to gain Powers.  Some of which are entirely free.  Sands of Mu, Ghost Slaying Axe, etc.  Day Job Powers are a borderline example as well, which "challenge" players to log off in specific locations.

The question of "Why" is a fantastic one, and I encourage everyone to ask it.  But it feels a little disingenuous to me to try to use "why" as turnabout to a legitimate question.  Still worth answering, of course, but disingenuous all the same.

 

 

Variety is definitely a great thing.  Gating content is not variety, though.  Offering options to access content is variety.  

I believe these three statements are the crux of the discussion here.  If its possible to offer content through multiple means of access, instead of simply gating it behind what someone deems as "challenge" or "grind," then I doubt there would be much in the way of objection or concern.

[Itikar]

10 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

 

Just because people enjoy running obstacle courses someone else built, doesn't mean they should be required to build their own and only use that.

 

I feel that outlook is very limited since its expecting everyone to make thier own challenges because no once should face challenges someone else made.

 

Just because I'm bad at building challenging stages in mario maker doesn't mean I shouldn't enjoy beating the stages someone else built.

This is not what you are proposing, again. What you want to propose is forcing other people to go through the arbitrary osbstacles you would like. If you want to enjoy the obstacles made by someone else you still have many options to do so. I actually do not see how removing options would be any better than having them. The moment you sit down and play a video game, you have already decided to go through a self-imposed series of obstacles. If you can do that, then certainly you can do the same within the game itself.

 

And I say this as someone who goes through self-imposed obstacles in this game quite often. If I can do that, why cannot you do the same? I have rarely gone through AE farms, I have done a single DFB run, mostly out of curiosity, and yet I would not like to prevent other people from leveling faster, through DFB, AE farms or anything else. Why do you want to force your way of playing on other people? What makes it better than theirs?

 

9 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

Then maybe they should spend some time playing the game?

 

Why is it unacceptable to have a few things harder to reach for those that enjoy reaching, just so someone else never needs to reach?

They play the game, they simply do not play the game your way and do not enjoy it in the same way you do.

 

I don't see why you, or I for that matter, should feel entitled to decide what is better for them.

 

16 minutes ago, MetaVileTerror said:

The difference isn't in the obstacle course or the Mario levels, though.  Those still exist, regardless of who built them.
The difference lies in locking anything behind completion of the obstacle course.  The experience of the challenge itself may be the reward without adding further incentive.  

If one is adding further incentive for the challenge, then why?  What merit does it objectively hold beyond artificially stimulating the reward centres of someone's brain?

Very well put. I really cannot quote this more. 🙂

 

1 minute ago, MunkiLord said:

I disagree here, limitations force people to be more creative and innovative. Working with restrictions to accomplish a goal encourages people to take different approaches and consider options they normally wouldn't. That doesn't mean everybody does or should enjoy various restrictions, especially if they are arbitrary. But I fundamentally disagree that it is a limit on creativity. I think a better way to phrase it would be a limit on expression of creativity, but even then I don't think that is either a good or bad thing by default.

No, not necessarily bad by default, okay. But still not worth the rather minor benefit in my humble opinion. And honestly, I struggle to even see this truly as a benefit, personally. I can see why a restriction, such as making a costume in Halloween theme, could have benefits in the global result of everybody making a Halloween themed costume, but I do not see how locking X hat behind killing 100 hellions does. The first is self-imposed, one can choose not to take part in the contest if they do not enjoy it, the second is not, as if one likes X hat, they will still have to kill the 100 hellions, regardless if it is a chore for them or not.

 

[Hero_of_Light]

1 minute ago, Itikar said:

 

And I say this as someone who goes through self-imposed obstacles in this game quite often. If I can do that, why cannot you do the same?

 

They play the game, they simply do not play the game your way and do not enjoy it in the same way you do.

 

I don't see why you, or I for that matter, should feel entitled to decide what is better for them.

Did you just ask me to play the way you play, then ask me not to ask others top play the way I play, and then say that no one is entitled to ask others to play another way? 

[Itikar]

1 minute ago, Hero_of_Light said:

Did you just ask me to play the way you play, then ask me not to ask others top play the way I play, and then say that no one is entitled to ask others to play another way? 

This is a strawman argument.

 

 

[MunkiLord]

7 minutes ago, Itikar said:

This is not what you are proposing, again. What you want to propose is forcing other people to go through the arbitrary osbstacles you would like. If you want to enjoy the obstacles made by someone else you still have many options to do so. I actually do not see how removing options would be any better than having them. The moment you sit down and play a video game, you have already decided to go through a self-imposed series of obstacles. If you can do that, then certainly you can do the same within the game itself.

 

And I say this as someone who goes through self-imposed obstacles in this game quite often. If I can do that, why cannot you do the same? I have rarely gone through AE farms, I have done a single DFB run, mostly out of curiosity, and yet I would not like to prevent other people from leveling faster, through DFB, AE farms or anything else. Why do you want to force your way of playing on other people? What makes it better than theirs?

 

They play the game, they simply do not play the game your way and do not enjoy it in the same way you do.

 

I don't see why you, or I for that matter, should feel entitled to decide what is better for them.

 

Very well put. I really cannot quote this more. 🙂

 

No, not necessarily bad by default, okay. But still not worth the rather minor benefit in my humble opinion. And honestly, I struggle to even see this truly as a benefit, personally. I can see why a restriction, such as making a costume in Halloween theme, could have benefits in the global result of everybody making a Halloween themed costume, but I do not see how locking X hat behind killing 100 hellions does. The first is self-imposed, one can choose not to take part in the contest if they do not enjoy it, the second is not, as if one likes X hat, they will still have to kill the 100 hellions, regardless if it is a chore for them or not.

 

I think there should be a compromise on this topic, which you appear unwilling to do. 95-99% of stuff would still be unlocked from the start for those that want it, with very little being gated for those that prefer the unlock grind. 

 

Why those people prefer the grind isn't important and shouldn't require any explanation or justification, that's what they enjoy. Assuming the development team is willing, those people deserve to have their preferences met as much as anyone else. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

[ZacKing]

2 hours ago, Hero_of_Light said:

Not everything needs to be behind a 'grind wall' as some might say,  but If everything is free or easy, then nothing is special.

having the game back is not special enough for you?  It's here.  Enjoy it while it last it may be gone tomorrow.

[MetaVileTerror]

May we unpack the subject header for this thread?
"Can we have more things that mean something?"

 

The attribution of meaning, but what /sort/ of meaning is it?  What is it about this game which gives someone a sense of accomplishment, and what meaning do they derive from it? 

It's a social game, so naturally that complicates things (and, in all honesty, you can argue every game that you don't make yourself is a social game, since you're playing with/against the developer(s)) . . . but what attachment comes from having achieved something which is literally an artificial construct within an entirely artificial setting?

I'm not asking these questions in a rhetorical attempt to invalidate anyone's experiences, mind you.  I am asking them genuinely, since I believe they are crucial to tackling this.  They're the exact same questions which the psychologists were paid to answer when large-scale video game publishers began to implement the various monetary "skinner boxes" which plague the game industry right now.  

This is the sort of thing which plays a significant impact in to the future of Homecoming:  How we, as a community, decide to answer these questions.

[HelBlaiz]

It sounds like the goal is to have something to distinguish the challenge completing players from people who don't complete challenges. Sounds like a job for badges to me. You complete X challenge you get a witty badge title that marks you as successful without limiting costume options behind unfun challenges.

Edited November 1, 2019 by HelBlaiz
auto correct

[Itikar]

4 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

I think there should be a compromise on this topic, which you appear unwilling to do.

Yes, I am frankly unwilling to compromise on a topic whose (supposed) benefits I do not deem worth even the minor loss they imply.

 

As for the grind, for those who enjoy it, the game already provides plenty of content, and very tangible reward in many forms.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Itikar

[Hero_of_Light]

6 minutes ago, Itikar said:

And I say this as someone who goes through self-imposed obstacles in this game quite often. If I can do that, why cannot you do the same? I have rarely gone through AE farms, I have done a single DFB run, mostly out of curiosity, and yet I would not like to prevent other people from leveling faster, through DFB, AE farms or anything else. Why do you want to force your way of playing on other people? What makes it better than theirs?

 

Im not the on be suggesting it should be the only way to play. I'm suggesting it should be one of the ways to play.

 

Example

 

You way: people have 17 classes instantly.

 

You can only get all of these instantly and for free and the people who want to earn something have zero of what they want. 

 

 

My way, people have 16 classes for nothing, 1 they can earn.

 

Most are still there for nothing,  but one is there for those that want to earn something. 

 

 

[Hero_of_Light]

4 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

having the game back is not special enough for you?  It's here.  Enjoy it while it last it may be gone tomorrow.

Why should I want a burger when I have cereal? I should just be happy with food because it may be gone tomorrow. 

[Hero_of_Light]

8 minutes ago, Itikar said:

This is a strawman argument.

 

 

No it's not. Your literally telling me I should only play your way, while you tell me I shouldn't tell others to play my way.

 

It's not even an argument,  I was just pointing out the hypocrisy.

 

And im not saying people should have to play my way, I'm saving my way should at least be an option.