Going forward, can we have more things that mean something?

[MetaVileTerror]

Well, if you really want to go /there/ . . . you likely want the burger due to the enzymes and proteins which trigger a biochemical response which results in a mental cascade of pleasure.  Not to mention that real burgers (not that fast-food crap) likely provide far more of your daily dietary needs than a bowl of cereal does.

In other words:  That's not a very good allegory to use in this current discussion.

[HelBlaiz]

3 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

No it's not. Your literally telling me I should only play your way, while you tell me I shouldn't tell others to play my way.

 

It's not even an argument,  I was just pointing out the hypocrisy.

 

And im not saying people should have to play my way, I'm saving my way should at least be an option. 

What exactly is your way of playing? From the sound of it you want a hat for completing a challenge so you're one of the 1% that own that hat. That sounds like it could be achieved better as a badge without limiting costumers' options.

[MunkiLord]

1 minute ago, HelBlaiz said:

What exactly is your way of playing? From the sound of it you want a hat for completing a challenge so you're one of the 1% that own that hat. That sounds like it could be achieved better as a badge without limiting costumers' options.

You're adding in that perception that he wants it to be some elite accomplishment to be part of some imaginary 1%. Some people just like the grind.

 

13 minutes ago, Itikar said:

Yes, I am frankly unwilling to compromise on a topic whose (supposed) benefits I do not deem worth even the minor loss they imply.

 

As for the grind, for those who enjoy it, the game already provides plenty of content, and very tangible reward in many forms.

That comes across as very selfish and petty. Because some people don't like it, nobody can have the option? The OP isn't asking for equal treatment or anything approaching that. Just a few crumbs. This is a very doable request, but for some reason only one side's preferences matter?

[Hero_of_Light]

7 minutes ago, Itikar said:

Yes, I am frankly unwilling to compromise on a topic whose (supposed) benefits I do not deem worth even the minor loss they imply.

 

As for the grind, for those who enjoy it, the game already provides plenty of content, and very tangible reward in many forms.

So someone else's happiness isnt worth it?

 

So because some people can't eat peanuts, does that mean no one should be able to enjoy it since it's something someone else can't enjoy?

 

All or nothing is harsh and unfair. Since you don't even have the open mindedness to compromise it's not even worth discussing it with you.

 

Im not selfish. I only want everyone to have something they enjoy in this game,  even its something I don't enjoy.

[HelBlaiz]

If people just like the grind, then a badge should be sufficient.

[Itikar]

18 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

Im not the on be suggesting it should be the only way to play. I'm suggesting it should be one of the ways to play.

 

Example

 

You way: people have 17 classes instantly.

You can only get all of these instantly and for free and the people who want to earn something have zero of what they want. 

 

 

My way, people have 16 classes for nothing, 1 they can earn.

 

Most are still there for nothing,  but one is there for those that want to earn something. 

 

 

Even apart from my negative judgement on the matter, what you are proposing is that there should be only one way to play class number 17: going through whatever content it requires for unlocking it. I can even concede that this could actually not be so bad for some classes, think of those blueside arachnos soldiers and widows with no clues about redside for example.

 

But it is still a limit you are proposing, not an option.

 

13 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

No it's not. Your literally telling me I should only play your way, while you tell me I shouldn't tell others to play my way.

No, I am not telling you that, and this is why your argument is a strawman.

 

What I told you is that there are other options than those you assume, and that is not really the same thing as wanting to force your way on others. You, on the other hand, are far beyond "telling", since you are proposing your way be forced on everybody, even for just a minor amount of content, whether they like it or not.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Itikar

[Hero_of_Light]

10 minutes ago, MetaVileTerror said:

Well, if you really want to go /there/ . . . you likely want the burger due to the enzymes and proteins which trigger a biochemical response which results in a mental cascade of pleasure.  Not to mention that real burgers (not that fast-food crap) likely provide far more of your daily dietary needs than a bowl of cereal does.

In other words:  That's not a very good allegory to use in this current discussion.

Okay fine.  Here's a more appropriate one. 

 

I want blue bike, but red is the only option. Should I just be happy with red because it's a bike?

[Hero_of_Light]

1 minute ago, HelBlaiz said:

If people just like the grind, then a badge should be sufficient.

If people like colors, then green should be sufficient. 

[HelBlaiz]

1 minute ago, Hero_of_Light said:

If people like colors, then green should be sufficient. 

I fail to see your point. Please clarify?

[MunkiLord]

3 minutes ago, HelBlaiz said:

If people just like the grind, then a badge should be sufficient.

For some it is, for others it's not. Either way "should" isn't a word that applies here. 

[Hero_of_Light]

1 minute ago, Itikar said:

Even apart from my negative judgement on the matter, what you are proposing is that there should be only one way to play class number 17: going through whatever content it requires for unlocking it. 

 

But it is still a limit you are proposing, not an option.

 

Im proposing limits Being an option. Yes im saying there should only be once way to play number 17.

 

Yes that's putting a limit on 1 class the way I want for my personal enjoyment, but you still have 16 classes the way you want for your personal enjoyment. 

 

I don't see how that's wrong.

[HelBlaiz]

3 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

For some it is, for others it's not. Either way "should" isn't a word that applies here. 

Alright, then what other content could be made grindable without costumers being forced to grind? Cause that is what I personally care about. I like having as many costume options available to me so I don't have to do something I don't like to do something I love.

Edited November 1, 2019 by HelBlaiz
typo

[MetaVileTerror]

Ok, so the bike example . . . we already have colours in-game, so . . . ugh . . . 

 

It's not a matter of:  We only have blue bikes, and someone wants a red bike.
We already HAVE blue bikes AND red bikes.  They're there, even if it's not the shade of red that everyone wants.
The issue arises when everyone has to have a blue bike until they jump through a hoop to get the red bike.

[Hero_of_Light]

 

11 minutes ago, HelBlaiz said:

If people just like the grind, then a badge should be sufficient.

If people just like color, then green should be sufficient. 

6 minutes ago, HelBlaiz said:

I fail to see your point. Please clarify?

 

 

My point was that it's limited and I swapped out a couple words to exemplify that. 

 

 

If people want vegan desserts,  should cookies be the ONLY vegan option and if they want a vegan cake, we'll that's just going to far?

 

If people want grinding,  should badges be the ONLY grinding option and if they want a grind for costumes, we'll that's just going to far?

 

[MunkiLord]

2 minutes ago, HelBlaiz said:

Alright, then what other content could be made grindable without costumers being forced to grind? Cause thate what I personally care about. I like having as many costume options available to me so I don't have to do something I don't like to do something I love.

I think the most fair approach is 95-99% of new items be unlocked from the start. People like you get almost everything you want, people like the OP get a few crumbs. Seems like the best solution to me. 
 

If a person's stance is no because they want everything at all times, well then so be it. 

[HelBlaiz]

I am personally against requiring one kind of gaming to facilitate another kind of gameplay. If grinding rewards were things that encouraged more grinding, like more mission content. Similar to games with hard bosses often rewarding you with more hard bosses to play against.

[Itikar]

5 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

You're adding in that perception that he wants it to be some elite accomplishment to be part of some imaginary 1%. Some people just like the grind.

 

That comes across as very selfish and petty. Because some people don't like it, nobody can have the option? The OP isn't asking for equal treatment or anything approaching that. Just a few crumbs. This is a very doable request, but for some reason only one side's preferences matter?

You are implying about my words things I did not say. In no way I implied or thought it is elitist. My only view of it is pretty simple: bad. No more, no less.

 

On top of that, my position is not any more selfish than that of OP. Actually, since I do not want to impose limits on anybody, while they do, I believe I am way less selfish than they are.

 

It can be argued that not having a limit is a limit in itself, even if it's a pretty fallacious argument, but the fact remains the OP and like-minded individuals can set themselves arbitrary goals. On the other hand a hard limit would remove any agency on the players who do not enjoy them, so it is still not on the same level. And that's why, personally, I do not feel like giving even a crumb would be worthwhile in this particular case. Just because a minority wants even a crumb it does not always mean it is a good idea to give them that crumb. This might be more obvious for stuff such as mature or generally unplesant content, but in this case, even if this request is relatively innocuous, in my opinion the loss for the whole community would surpass any benefit for the minority. And that's why I hold such position.

 

And if you deem it selfish and petty, so be it. I beg to differ, but that's not really pertinent to this discussion.

[Hero_of_Light]

1 minute ago, MetaVileTerror said:

Ok, so the bike example . . . we already have colours in-game, so . . . ugh . . . 

 

It's not a matter of:  We only have blue bikes, and someone wants a red bike.
We already HAVE blue bikes AND red bikes.  They're there, even if it's not the shade of red that everyone wants.
The issue arises when everyone has to have a blue bike until they jump through a hoop to get the red bike.

 

And why is that an issue? We also already have hoops to jump through in the game and limits are built into almost every part of the game.

 

If people want to have the last power in thier class. They have to level, they have lots of options on how to get exp, sooner faster than others, but they still have to get that exp somehow. That limits is on almost EVERY power in the game.

 

I just want other parts of the game to offer similar options on other parts for those that enjoy it.

 

I can only imagine how things would be if the game came back with instant 50s... have a headache imagining the arguments people would have on how asking to have to earn levels again limits people's creativity.....

 

[HelBlaiz]

4 minutes ago, Itikar said:

You are implying about my words things I did not say. In no way I implied or thought it is elitist. My only view of it is pretty simple: bad. No more, no less.

 

On top of that, my position is not any more selfish than that of OP. Actually, since I do not want to impose limits on anybody, while they do, I believe I am way less selfish than they are.

 

It can be argued that not having a limit is a limit in itself, even if it's a pretty fallacious argument, but the fact remains the OP and like-minded individuals can set themselves arbitrary goals. On the other hand a hard limit would remove any agency on the players who do not enjoy them, so it is still not on the same level. And that's why, personally, I do not feel like giving even a crumb would be worthwhile in this particular case. Just because a minority wants even a crumb it does not always mean it is a good idea to give them that crumb. This might be more obvious for stuff such as mature or generally unplesant content, but in this case, even if this request is relatively innocuous, in my opinion the loss for the whole community would surpass any benefit for the minority. And that's why I hold such position.

 

And if you deem it selfish and petty, so be it. I beg to differ, but that's not really pertinent to this discussion.

Ah I was making assumptions and not keeping track of usernames, my bad.

[Itikar]

Just now, HelBlaiz said:

Ah I was making assumptions and not keeping track of usernames, my bad.

Hey, I was replying to Munkilord, not to you. 😛

[Omega-202]

40 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

No it's not. Your literally telling me I should only play your way, while you tell me I shouldn't tell others to play my way.

 

It's not even an argument,  I was just pointing out the hypocrisy.

 

And im not saying people should have to play my way, I'm saving my way should at least be an option. 

You can self limit yourself so you "need" a 50 to play EATs, complete the capes mission for capes, etc. There, you have your way, we have ours, everyone wins.  

 

If instead, we go your way, you win and the other side loses because they have to play your way.  

 

How do you not see that the current system is the win-win and your way is a win-lose?  

 

But nevermind, all of that.  Its pointless because I'd put good money down that this is just because you want a way to stroke your ego over your accomplishments.  Which is extra sad in a dead game available for free.

 

Please just be honest and come out and say that you want to feel better than other people and this is an ego thing.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Omega-202

[MunkiLord]

5 minutes ago, Itikar said:

You are implying about my words things I did not say. In no way I implied or thought it is elitist. My only view of it is pretty simple: bad. No more, no less.

 

On top of that, my position is not any more selfish than that of OP. Actually, since I do not want to impose limits on anybody, while they do, I believe I am way less selfish than they are.

 

It can be argued that not having a limit is a limit in itself, even if it's a pretty fallacious argument, but the fact remains the OP and like-minded individuals can set themselves arbitrary goals. On the other hand a hard limit would remove any agency on the players who do not enjoy them, so it is still not on the same level. And that's why, personally, I do not feel like giving even a crumb would be worthwhile in this particular case. Just because a minority wants even a crumb it does not always mean it is a good idea to give them that crumb. This might be more obvious for stuff such as mature or generally unplesant content, but in this case, even if this request is relatively innocuous, in my opinion the loss for the whole community would surpass any benefit for the minority. And that's why I hold such position.

 

And if you deem it selfish and petty, so be it. I beg to differ, but that's not really pertinent to this discussion.

I didn't imply anything about your post, reread my comment. That was a reply to someone else. 
 

The idea that's it's less selfish is wrong. You're against it because you don't like the idea, that's your preference and that's fine. The fact that more people likely agree with your preference is nothing more than a convenient coincidence. 

[Dragon Crush]

So I mostly disagree with the unlock crowd since it's biggest pushers are going much further than I would (I'd be happy with just more badges). But would a compromise be possible where a new server where most/everything requires unlocking? We get what, 5 free server transfers every 3 days? Hero_of_Light and others can transfer to a server where you can't use any wings until you kill 5000 enemies with wings and be happy, while the rest of us can continue as is.

 

And perhaps only collect cost from the "need to "earn" everything" crowd for the unlock server, if they don't pay just that one goes down.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Dragon Crush
adressing server costs

[HelBlaiz]

2 minutes ago, Itikar said:

Hey, I was replying to Munkilord, not to you. 😛

See? I did it again! But yeah, I think the best solution would still be rewards that facilitate more grind, like more missions to run or giant monsters to fight?

[MunkiLord]

2 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

You can self limit yourself so you "need" a 50 to play EATs, complete the capes mission for capes, etc. There, you have your way, we have ours, everyone wins.  

 

If instead, we go your way, you win and the other side loses because they have to play your way.  

 

How do you not see that the current system is the win-win and your way is a win-lose?  

 

But nevermind, all of that.  Its pointless because I'd put good money down that this is just because you want a way to stroke your ego over your accomplishments.  Which is extra sad in a dead game available for free.

 

Please just be honest and come out and say that you want to feel better than other people and this is an ego thing.

Your proclamation about the OP's hidden agenda is you stroking your ego over your awesome insights. I know because I also do it from time to time. So if you're right about the OP, let's not pretend you're any different.