Defender Inherent - Both against theme and often useless.

[Neogumbercules]

I'm not going to get into a big counter quote discussion, but you've completely missed the point I was making.

 

Nothing about vigilance has any impact on how you play a defender. It's a completely passive and invisible inherent, and despite the fact that you think inherents are not designed to impact your power picks or how you play, that's demonstrably false on many of the ATs.

 

Domination is the obvious example, as the endgame for a dominator revolves around the inherent and when you press the button you explode in a flash and gain an awesome glowing aura, plus your controls all have that satisfying Domination! text. You literally pick when you use it, so it's an active gameplay element, and yes you bet your booty I'm taking powers that work well with domination, so it 100% influences how I build a dominator.

 

Another one, Fury benefits from having a high recharge attack chain and encourage a brute to jump in and fight like crazy. Plus the damage numbers get waaaay bigger when it's full and enemies die everywhere.

 

Critical Strike on a scrapper encourages you to attack the boss, and several scrapper powers have enhanced crit strike chance, which, wouldn't you believe it, influence your power picks. They get a big critical hit text when it procs. These ATs and others also have ATOs that play into the inherent, which turns the inherent into a gameplay consideration, in this RPG, where you pick complementary powers and try to find synergies.

 

One of Arsenal Control's biggest complaints in beta was that it didn't have a good way to set up containment. Again, another gameplay and power pick implication for the inherent of the controller. Controller has many builds that use containment to synergize with power picks. Fire/Kin controllers are a good example of this. Controllers get the big Containment! text pop up, too.

 

Even Scourge, which is largely passive, has gameplay implications, as you know I'm looking for the boss with low HP so I can incinerate them with blazing bolt or blaze and seeing that big orange SCOURGE! damage tic is satisfying and gives good feels because you, as a player of a videogame, get to see that great visual feedback of what you're doing.

 

Tanks entire play style revolves around Gauntlet and, yes, powers like Burn are great picks on a tank because I can now get a ton of damage out of it because my passive is going to ensure that the foes won't run away when I click it. You see it in action because the enemies crowd you and don't run away. It synergizes on teams, too, as many toons will use powers that make foes run, but they won't run when a tank has aggro on them.

 

I could go on but I don't need to beat it into the ground. A lot of the inherents have audio and/or visual feedback and they DO change the way you build and play your character.

 

Vigilance gives zero visual or audio feedback, does not impact how you build your defender, cannot be manipulated or exploited or synergized with in any way, and yes, the endurance part of it remains, but that's a reach because that aspect of it is so unbelievably useless in any phase of the game past maybe level 12.

 

But forgot about the damage and endurance thing or the mechanics of what Vigilance does. That is truly not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is that it's boring, it provides no feedback, and the player doesn't engage with it -at all-.

 

Put another way, if Vigilance made you turn super Saiyan with glowing yellow hair and a flaming aura around your body when half your team was dead, but was mechanically 100% the same as it is today, I would consider it way better than what we currently have.

Edited July 5 by Neogumbercules

[megaericzero]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

It defines Defenders as the AT that steps up when things go south for the team, cutting loose in ways the other ATs can't, to keep the team alive.

 

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

It's impact surfaces when the Defender is needed most, when the team is in a lurch and the Defender can cut loose with their reduced END until the team recovers or wipes.

 

Are teams usually hurting for want of a Defender(s)'s endurance? Genuine question; I solo and don't play Defenders.

Like mid-ish level range I guess because of the (lack of) end management options but at the extremes ...?

(EDIT: Which is to say I would assume the answer is "no" because low levels just don't have enough things to drain their endurance unless you're clicking literally every power you have at that point and high levels have enough endurance management that they're firing off everything from cooldown without worrying about endurance, but that's why I ask.)

Edited July 5 by megaericzero

[Rudra]

46 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Are teams usually hurting for want of a Defender(s)'s endurance? Genuine question; I solo and don't play Defenders.

Like mid-ish level range I guess because of the (lack of) end management options but at the extremes ...?

(EDIT: Which is to say I would assume the answer is "no" because low levels just don't have enough things to drain their endurance unless you're clicking literally every power you have at that point and high levels have enough endurance management that they're firing off everything from cooldown without worrying about endurance, but that's why I ask.)

Most teams don't get to the point where the Defender's inherent comes into play, no. The 'typical' team devours the 'typical' spawn so fast there isn't time for anyone to really get in trouble. That also applies to other ATs as well however. I can't remember the last time any of my Corruptors scourged anything when on a large team. (Edit: Other than Hamidon. I haven't done any iTrials in forever now, but I should be able to Scourge on those. Hopefully.) By the time an enemy's health was low enough for Scourge to trigger, the enemy almost always died before my next attack hit it. And a Stalker that waits to be hidden for their assassination to work just isn't contributing on those teams either. I can't recall the last time there was anyone using any holds so my Stalker could benefit from the Stalker inherent on a large team even with a Controller or Dominator present. So does that mean their inherent powers are bad and need to be changed too?

 

Each of the AT inherent powers were designed with a specific function in mind. In the case of Scrappers, when ATOs were added, I'm pretty sure they got the ATOs they did because their inherent wasn't really doing anything most of the time. Kheldians have inherent powers that make them more capable when on diverse teams, because the devs at the time figured Kheldians would rely more on having team mates to help deal with the Voids and Quantums. Soldiers of Arachnos' original inherent only worked with other Soldiers of Arachnos on their team. So their inherent was in desperate need of updating because it only worked when on a team of just Arachnos and not other ATs.

 

I'm not a fan of the idea that every power and ability in the game should always have a direct effect on character's ability to mow down enemies at all times. I understand I am probably in the minority for that though. Just like I am in the minority about things like the Holy Quad being required picks (edit: I disagree with that), that utility powers in a power set are actually viable and serve a purpose (edit: I stand by that), and a few other things. I can understand asking for a progressive reduction in the Defender's recharge to go with the progressive reduction in endurance consumption when the crap hits the fan and the team finds itself in a bad spot, but I don't understand the stance that the Defender's ability to step up when the chips are down and bail out the team is useless or bad just because the majority of teams consist of players that have their characters so tweaked out they can solo +4/x8 and are running around on a team. (Edit again: If everyone on the team can solo +4/x8, and you have a full team of 8, what can possibly threaten them? Why should inherent powers be changed to be more effective under those conditions?)

 

Edited July 5 by Rudra

[megaericzero]

Thanks for answering.

 

A follow-up question: is it not a problem then that Vigilance's endurance discount is exclusively for having teammates - and scales to higher values faster with more - when larger teams are the same factor that makes it less likely to be relevant? Sure most other inherents get drowned out too but the other teammate-reliant ones add potency directly in combat attributes in most cases.

[Rudra]

46 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Thanks for answering.

 

A follow-up question: is it not a problem then that Vigilance's endurance discount is exclusively for having teammates - and scales to higher values faster with more - when larger teams are the same factor that makes it less likely to be relevant? Sure most other inherents get drowned out too but the other teammate-reliant ones add potency directly in combat attributes in most cases.

It's not the team size that is causing the Defender inherent to be less useful than when first implemented. It is that having a full team (or a team at all) no longer really means anything in the game since the standard expectation of character development is that anything can solo +4/x8. And if you have any characters on your team that can solo that, then it doesn't matter how big or small your team is, because the characters that can will simply steamroll everything. (Edit: At minimal to no risk to anyone on the team that can't, quite often.)

 

Edit again: So again, it isn't that the inherent itself is bad or useless. It still boosts the Defender's damage if teamed with no more than two other characters and it still acts as a boost to effectiveness should the Defender's team find itself in a bad spot. (Again, I can understand asking for a recharge boost to go with the END use boost for those times, but that is about the limit of my understanding/acceptance for the Defender inherent getting changed.)

 

(Edit yet again: And heaven forbid anyone propose a suggestion that makes enemies scale up in capability more than they already do for selecting higher difficulties or having larger teams. That is grounds for crucifixion. Can't up the challenge level of the game to compensate for teams of tweaked out characters, but asking for more power for characters that can already sleep their way through +4/x8 content is fine....)

 

Edited July 5 by Rudra

[srmalloy]

On 7/4/2024 at 8:45 PM, Rudra said:

Most teams don't get to the point where the Defender's inherent comes into play, no. The 'typical' team devours the 'typical' spawn so fast there isn't time for anyone to really get in trouble.

Not only that, if your team is getting pasted badly enough that your inherent is kicking in strongly, your damage output and defenses are unlikely to allow you to stand there and tank the situation long enough for the rest of your team to get back on their feet -- particularly when every teammate that does is chipping away at the benefit you're getting from your inherent.

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, srmalloy said:

Not only that, if your team is getting pasted badly enough that your inherent is kicking in strongly, your damage output and defenses are unlikely to allow you to stand there and tank the situation long enough for the rest of your team to get back on their feet -- particularly when every teammate that does is chipping away at the benefit you're getting from your inherent.

The Defender shouldn't be the one tanking things until the team gets back on their feet. The Defender should be cutting loose with any buffs, debuffs, and/or heals (s)he/they/it were holding back on due to END cost/management to bolster the meat shields while further cutting loose with their own attacks. To that end, I am actually in favor of adding a progressive recharge reduction to go with the END reduction for the Defender's inherent, but not replacing the inherent.

[srmalloy]

52 minutes ago, Rudra said:

To that end, I am actually in favor of adding a progressive recharge reduction to go with the END reduction for the Defender's inherent, but not replacing the inherent.

Add a sliding scale augmenting the buffs/debuffs that a Defender applies to that -- enough to be noticeable but not more than, say, an SO's worth at the extreme end -- and I could get behind all of it.

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

Add a sliding scale augmenting the buffs/debuffs that a Defender applies to that -- enough to be noticeable but not more than, say, an SO's worth at the extreme end -- and I could get behind all of it.

That's a bit much. Either the progressive recharge reduction or the progressive buff/debuff buff, but not both. With the recharge reduction, you can already bring more of your abilities into play to make up for the team being in a bad spot. (Edit: Including your attacks.) With the progressive buffing, your debuffs and/or buffs are of greater effectiveness, reducing the need for anything to be available more often. So while I understand your sentiment, I can only agree to one.

Edited July 6 by Rudra

[Jack Spanky]

On 7/4/2024 at 10:45 PM, Rudra said:

Most teams don't get to the point where the Defender's inherent comes into play, no.

 

 

The prosecution rests.

[shortguy on indom]

• 20 YEARS WE HAVE LIKED THE +30% DAMAGE OF VIGILANCE.
• 20 YEARS WE HAVE KNOWN THAT THE +ENDURANCE BOOST IS USELESS (FOR THE MOST PART).
• FOR 20 YEARS THEY COULD HAVE ADDED +RECHARGE OR +RECOVERY TO VIGILANCE AND DID NOT.
• FOR 20 YEARS THEY COULD HAVE ADDED A 'VIGILANCE!' WORD ANIMATION ACCROSS THE SCREEN AND DID NOT.
• I KNOW THAT POWER CREEP IS A THING.
• I KNOW THAT REWARD CREEP IS FAR WORSE THAN POWER CREEP.

LETS JUST BE HAPPY WITH THIS...

WHENEVER THE SUPER-RARE FULL TEAM VIGILANCE POWER ENGAGES... FOR ANY DEFENDER... WE CLOSE OUR EYES FOR A SECOND AND IMAGINE THIS... FLASHING SERVER-WIDE ON OUR CHAT AND AT ATLAS PARK...

 

 

 

 

[shortguy on indom]

• STARE AT IT LONG ENOUGH TO BURN INTO YOUR RETINA'S MY DEFENDER CO-PATRIOTS... 

[Purrfekshawn]

And the same logic if it was true for Marine Affinity defenders. They have heals so not +REGEN aura. But they have both +Resistance and +Defense. l think it's more for +RES than for +DEF, because it's actually bigger than Kinetic Resistance (which's only for Smashing and Energy), while defense is just +5% and not the main feature. The Marine Affinity defender with enhancements could buff +20% Resistance for all damage types and +40% Resistance to Smashing and Fire.

 

So the reworked Vigilance aura for Marine Affinity could provide +5% defense (all)!

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Purrfekshawn said:

And the same logic if it was true for Marine Affinity defenders.

What are you talking about?

[Purrfekshawn]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

What are you talking about?

2nd New support Powerset

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, Purrfekshawn said:

2nd New support Powerset

Something on Beta then? Okay. Thanks.

[Trickshooter]

Vigilance is vanilla, but it's fine. Defenders perform well enough that they don't need a gimmicky inherent.

 

(Although like 100 years ago I did suggest a Vigilance 2.0 that basically ended up becoming the Support Hybrid tree lol)

 

Anyway, they don't really need anything (especially since the push to correct shared pseudopets), but if I was gonna ask for anything to change, I would request a scaling Mez resistance (not protection) that goes up with the EndDiscount. That's all, really. But even then, not really necessary.

[tidge]

4 hours ago, Trickshooter said:

Vigilance is vanilla, but it's fine. Defenders perform well enough that they don't need a gimmicky inherent.

 

Vigilance isn't the last inherent I think needs consideration... and it definitely is not the first. My personal assessment is also that it is perfectly fine, and has benefits for both solo and team play.

 

In comparison: The HEAT inherents offer nothing for solo play, and the VEAT inherent is not nothing... but it is close to nothing in the scheme of things.

[shortguy on indom]

• VIGILANCE INHERENT IS A USELESS FORCE MULTIPLIER ON LARGE TEAMS.
• IT SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM THE GAME.
• OR..
• IT WAS ALREADY DONE A LONG TIME AGO
• JUST THAT NOBODY MENTIONED IT IN THE PATCH NOTES.

[shortguy on indom]

DEFENDER VIGILANCE:
COMPENDIUM OF QUOTES OVER THE YEARS...(PLEASE NOTE NAMES HAVE BEEN REMOVED TO PROTECT THE INNOCENT).

⦁    .. Vigilance, on the other hand, encourages the Defender to let their teammates suffer to get an endurance discount, and as a later add-on was updated to even give the Defender more damage when they don't have around portable meatshields to soak up extra damage for them. They also are better at corrup...
 January 27, 2021
⦁    ... Vigilance, the Defender inherent is... just not wonderful. It allows them to solo better, yeah, but beyond that it's just a bit lacklustre. Maybe a stacking Power Boost effect or something? It's just quite underwhelming, especially when compared to the Corrupter version which is a reliable DPS incr...
 February 25, 2022
⦁    ... Vigilance gives Defenders a damage boost while solo and on small teams. On large teams, the damage boost is replaced with an endurance reduction.
May 14, 2021
⦁    ...Still not sure I like Vigilance. Definitely nice solo, but if I read things right, it disappears on a team when nobody is hurt? I get that that's about Defenders being more support focused but it would be nice if they always got something on a team. Like at least a small end discount...
May 14, 2021
⦁    ...The second you get on a team the defenders damage drops ( vigilance) and the corrs superior ability to respond to buffs takes over. Corrs have higher base damage, a higher cap and scourge. It isn't even close.
February 5, 2021
⦁    ...the first version of Defender Vigilance was an End Discount based on the health of the team. The lower the health of the team, the more of a discount the Defender got. If a Defender was doing his job, then his Inherent wasn't doing anything.
October 8, 2020
⦁    ..The problem with Vigilance, is that it only benefits most when solo and does little to help with team DPS. I understand it has other benefits when on a team, but IMO those benefits do not hep a team much in end game, since most built characters do not have an issue with endurance anyway. So on t...
 October 7, 2020
⦁    I hate Vigilance. I love my Defender thought.
October 7, 2020
⦁    I'm 90% sure that Vigilance is NOT being applied when you look at it in the in-game character creation process. What's confusing you is the stuff siolfir pointed out. You're comparing the powers at level 1, which is not a valid comparison. Compare the powers with the slider pulled over to 50 instead...
October 4, 2020
⦁    ... Vigilance: I think the fact that Vigilance is so complex and messy is telling of how hard it is to find a good passive that doesn't kibosh soloing for defenders. What's worse is that I have no ideas on how to fix it. Brawl and the Origin Attacks: Brawl and the basic ranged o...
July 31, 2020
⦁    Vigilance is the first one I think of when you say "inherent powers that need attention." As others have stated already, with so many Defender primaries revolving around prevention of damage and being a force multiplier for your team, many Defenders will get absolutely zero use from the...
July 28, 2020

[DrRocket]

On 11/11/2019 at 2:02 PM, Vanden said:

People have been complaining about the Defender inherent since before there was a Defender inherent. They only got the one they have because people complained that all the other ATs had some inherent. The fact is, Defenders work fine as an AT without an inherent, so if their inherent ends up doing nothing most of the time in teams, that doesn't matter.

In a full team, they don't even get an inherent, ha ha ha; only class that has that characteristic