pvp only accolades

[Warlawk]

13 minutes ago, macskull said:

Remind me again which server was designated by the Homecoming team as the PvP server? Last I checked, it wasn't Justin.

You aren't happy with the experience that provides.

You are unwilling to try alternative solutions.

You want people to change the game so you don't have to invest time earning things (which was NOT sprung on you by surprise, everyone knows how the system works).

You throw out responses like the one I quoted which do not address the substance of the statement at all, they simply provide a further reason why you are unwilling to even try the existing solutions.

 

Then you don't want people to say that is acting entitled.

 

EDIT:

12 minutes ago, macskull said:

By the way, the idea that you'd be okay with keeping a second instance of the game running as a chat client is completely absurd

Almost as absurd as expecting people to allocate limited resources to changing the way the game works because you don't think you should have to invest time to earn things for your character like everyone else has to.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Warlawk

[macskull]

Did you read my edit? You'll find the answer there, and probably in at least one other post in this thread where someone asked the same question re: Justin that you did. Playing the "entitlement" card is a cop-out, plain and simple. For some reason unbeknownst to me I keep responding to your posts, and you keep on not getting it - all that's being asked for is a completely reasonable QoL change. Yes, it'll involve some developer time. No, it won't benefit a majority of players (it won't actually have any effect on a majority of players). No, that doesn't mean it's a waste of said developer time.

Edited September 1, 2019 by macskull

[Warlawk]

27 minutes ago, macskull said:

Did you read my edit? You'll find the answer there, and probably in at least one other post in this thread where someone asked the same question re: Justin that you did. Playing the "entitlement" card is a cop-out, plain and simple. For some reason unbeknownst to me I keep responding to your posts, and you keep on not getting it - all that's being asked for is a completely reasonable QoL change. Yes, it'll involve some developer time. No, it won't benefit a majority of players (it won't actually have any effect on a majority of players). No, that doesn't mean it's a waste of said developer time.

All the things you want can currently be earned in game on an exactly level playing field. Everyone who wants them, EVERYONE, earns them the same way.

Let me dismantle the barriers to pvp. I can see from your signature that you have a second account. That means you have the capability to have a farmer toon to powerlevel on your main account. If you don't have a farmer, that's ANOTHER potential solution to the problem that you are choosing to not utilize.

 

Barrier entry #1, leveling to 50.

With a budget farmer build you can PL yourself to 50 in 3 hours.

(As an aside I don't consider this a valid barrier to entry. Anyone who wants to play a character long term and seriously will be leveling to 50, considering this a barrier to entry speaks volumes about the entitled attitude, there are even clamped pvp zones for lower levels. Again, completely unutilized)

 

Barrier #2, IO sets.

With a budget farmer you can earn 90 million or more an hour in RAW influence, not counting any drops. That's a few hours work which can be done over time and also can be partially completely simultaneously with overcoming barrier #1.

 

Barrier #3, Incarnates.

You stated this was 10 minutes investment to be competent, not much of a barrier.

 

Barrier #4, Accolades.

An investment of time. Not difficult, but does require playing your character.

 

None of those are exactly taxing or demanding. You want an end game completed character without putting in the time to earn an end game completed character and feel the game should be reprogrammed to hand that to you. You're damned right I consider that acting entitled, how could it be seen as anything else? So because you want to play pvp you shouldn't have to invest your time to earn the things everyone else does. Why?

 

EDIT: In terms of a completed end game ready character

Leveling must be done by both pvp and pve players.

IO sets is going to be an identical expense for both pvp and pve players.

Incarnates from what has been stated, less is required for pvp than an end game complete pve build.

Accolades are less required for pve, yet still considered a mandatory part of a complete end game build.

 

So even if we concede that accolades swing in favor of pvp, that would leave a pvp and pve balanced on the 4 barriers to entry, and that doesn't account for the fact that a completed incarnate build will take more time than the needed accolades. So, why is it that PvP players should receive special treatment?

Edited September 1, 2019 by Warlawk

[Kimuji]

44 minutes ago, macskull said:

I think you're underestimating exactly how much difference the extra 20% HP makes. I understand that you likely don't PvP so it makes it difficult to explain, but believe me when I say that disabling accolades for everyone isn't a solution anyone would be happy with.

I stopped pvp but I've been pvping a lot during my first run in the game. And competitively I may add (i.e with a regular team, voice and all for strategy and constant communication).
I do understand the difference a 20% HP can make, it's massive but I just find this aspect irrelevant regarding the current topic. And this for a reason that I have already explained: all pvp players have to meet the same requirements in order to get that advantage, no one is getting this advantage for free so how is it an unfair advantage? Everyone is free to get through the regular process, no one is prevented from trying.

Now why would diabling accolades in arenas be a balance issue? That's the contrary of an imbalance that's perfect balance, it puts everyone on the same level.

[PaxArcana]

5 hours ago, macskull said:

Going into a PvP zone devoid of players isn't "investing that time in PvP content."

Yes, it is.

1. We cannot know, for certain, that there are no hostile players in the zone when we enter it;
2. We cannot know for certain that no hostile players will enter the zone while we are there;
3. Thus, this creates a mindset / "feel" / "atmosphere" of play that differs from that of a purely-PvE experience.

I have an anxiety disorder.  Just entering a PvP zone, given #1 and #2 above, quickens my pulse and increases my blood pressure.  Even without having yet seen another player.  It therefor absolutely is "investing time in PvP content".

Edited September 1, 2019 by PaxArcana

[justicebeliever]

49 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

Yes, it is.

1. We cannot know, for certain, that there are no hostile players in the zone when we enter it;
2. We cannot know for certain that no hostile players will enter the zone while we are there;
3. Thus, this creates a mindset / "feel" / "atmosphere" of play that differs from that of a purely-PvE experience.

I have an anxiety disorder.  Just entering a PvP zone, given #1 and #2 above, quickens my pulse and increases my blood pressure.  Even without having yet seen another player.  It therefor absolutely is "investing time in PvP content".

Pax, I too suffer anxiety, we've talked about it...Now I am not going to compare, nor suggest what you should or should not be able to do, (because I don't know exactly what it's like to be you):

1.) PvP Zones are optional - you don't have to go to them. 

2.) Dev's should put limited PvE content in PvP zones...Badges, Temp Powers, etc...it's a challenge for those who wish to undertake it, and it's not game breaking at all to avoid it...

[PaxArcana]

24 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

1.) PvP Zones are optional - you don't have to go to them. 

I was not arguing that point.

 

The claim was made that "going to a PvP zone when there's no-one there, is not investing time in PvP content".  I was arguing against that - because the truth is, as soon as you set foot in a PvP zone, you are "investing time in PvP content."

Quote

2.) Dev's should put limited PvE content in PvP zones...

This, however, I absolutely 110% disagree with.  It amounts to ... wel, not forced PvP, let's instead say, compelled PvP.

 

That should never happen.  Never.  And it was a mistake for the Devs, when they made those zones, to put anything of interest to PvE players in there - including exploration badges, but especially parts of the redside accolades.

 

No-one should ever have any reason to set foot in a PvP zone, except to seek PvP.

Edited September 1, 2019 by PaxArcana

[justicebeliever]

Well, I feel refreshed after a few hours of sleep....Wait...What?  You all are still dueling?

 

Reminder:  I am not a PvP'er here, or anywhere...I have never played PvP and I don't intend to start...The majority of my forums ignore list is PvP'ers

 

Here are a couple of my thoughts:

@kelly RocketI get that going into a PvP zone is an anxiety inducing, stressful, perhaps painful thing for you.  And I see discussing what you believe are equitable solutions and then getting attacked.  However, the reality is that the PvP'ers are having to get these accolades in the PvE zones as designed and intended.  There are no shortcuts,  But a PvE'er in Bloody Bay or Warburg is playing the game as designed, but NOT as intended...The intent to get a Shivan Shard or Warburg nuke was that you would have to fight a bunch of other players to get them...That does not happen.  It's not the same thing...Also, the PvP'ers have been saying these accolades are necessary to win battles....I am 100% certain that Shivan Shards and Warburgs Nukes are not necessary to win battles in PvE...

 

@WarlawkI get that you are concerned about the fairness and equity of what the PvP'ers are asking for in contrast to the PvE experience...But here's the thing...If you are going to talk about fairness, it goes both ways...Let's suggest that PvP gets equal development time as PvE...Because otherwise we are back to treating them like second class citizens - we get everything, you get nothing, and when you suggest something, we say, it's not fair that you get something...Let the PvP'ers decide what's most important to them...Then ask - How does this change hurt my experience?  How does it hurt the PvE experience...And stick to that....

[Haijinx]

I suspect that attacking from stealth in pvp is a thing?  

 

Meaning waylaying people is a thing. 

 

Then seems almost like the no big deal pvp zones are empty crowd is being disingenuous. 

[Warlawk]

3 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

@WarlawkI get that you are concerned about the fairness and equity of what the PvP'ers are asking for in contrast to the PvE experience...But here's the thing...If you are going to talk about fairness, it goes both ways...Let's suggest that PvP gets equal development time as PvE...Because otherwise we are back to treating them like second class citizens - we get everything, you get nothing, and when you suggest something, we say, it's not fair that you get something...Let the PvP'ers decide what's most important to them...Then ask - How does this change hurt my experience?  How does it hurt the PvE experience...And stick to that....

Ok, but that's not what I'm saying at all. If I was advocating fairness I would be requesting a breakdown of the number of accounts that spend the majority of their time in pvp activities vs the number of accounts that spend the majority of their time in PvE and allocating percentages of the available development time to equal those ratios. I'm not, that would leave them completely screwed and they would get nothing.

 

I'm looking at the merit of this request on its own. There are multiple possible solutions and alternate approaches to the "problems" being presented which have not been even attempted. The reality of the situation is, if you play an MMO you will need to invest your time in having an endgame capable character. That's pretty universal. There is NO barrier to acquiring these accolades aside from being forced to put in the time to earn them, the same way everyone else does. Asking to skip that simply because you don't feel like doing to the work to earn the reward is not a request that should require investment of development resources.

 

PvE players by and large do not enjoy grinding for these accolades either. Have you ever known anyone to actively enjoy going out to hunt down 100 fake nems? (I'm sure there's someone... there are some odd cats on the internet!). If you want a reward, you put in the time to earn it. Just because you don't happen to like that content does NOT entitle you to request the game be rewritten to accommodate your unwillingness to do the same work everyone else does for the same reward.

[Moonshades]

7 hours ago, kelly Rocket said:

And I'll say it again: I don't "need" Shivans the same way they don't "need" the buffs from accolades!

 

IT'S STILL AN ADVANTAGE!

 

And the damn PvPers can have it when I CAN GET SHIVANS WITHOUT GOING TO BLOODY BAY AND NOT ONE SECOND BEFORE!

Tell me how you really feel. 😉

 

I mean, you're making a strawman argument. The 'advantages' aren't the same. The only advantage to the pvp buffs are you can only use it while engaged in pvp in a pvp zone, or the arena and can't be used outside of those situations. You on the other hand can go into a pvp environment, grab your Shivans and then happily skate back out again to use your reward outside of pvp. See the difference?

 

And since you're obviously not a pvper why would such a thing bother you? It changes literally nothing about your game experience. You can still do literally everything you can do now, and if you do go into a pvp zone for your loot, no one has any advantages over you that they didn't bring with them and would still have, buff or not.

 

[Steampunkette]

You know what PvP Zones need?

 

Radio/Paper Missions.

 

Give players something serious to do that other players can try to actively interrupt and engage with.

 

Give the zones some Unique NPC Groups or just Rare/Unusual ones for Max Level Players (Or indeed players of any level) and let them go to town on it! Instead of doing 3 and getting a Bank Missions you could just make them infinitely repeatable content.

 

I might actually make a character who went to and around Bloody Bay if I could do a bunch of missions, there.

[Warlawk]

4 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

You know what PvP Zones need?

 

Radio/Paper Missions.

 

Give players something serious to do that other players can try to actively interrupt and engage with.

 

Give the zones some Unique NPC Groups or just Rare/Unusual ones for Max Level Players (Or indeed players of any level) and let them go to town on it! Instead of doing 3 and getting a Bank Missions you could just make them infinitely repeatable content.

 

I might actually make a character who went to and around Bloody Bay if I could do a bunch of missions, there.

As a long time pvp player I've seen first hand how that usually turns out.

 

Incentivizing pve to get pve players into pvp zones when they do not actively desire the pvp is just going to cause far more friction that you're already seeing in this thread, exponentially.

[Steampunkette]

3 minutes ago, Warlawk said:

As a long time pvp player I've seen first hand how that usually turns out.

 

Incentivizing pve to get pve players into pvp zones when they do not actively desire the pvp is just going to cause far more friction that you're already seeing in this thread, exponentially.

There's no real incentive, there, though. I can go do Paper missions on Peregrine Island or Grandville or wherever.

 

It's just adding another activity to PvP zones which, honestly, is PvE Centric but without specific PvE Rewards.

 

It would be pretty cool to fight Shivans in a Bloody Bay Word Salad mission, though!

[PaxArcana]

11 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

You know what PvP Zones need?

 

Radio/Paper Missions.

 

Give players something serious to do that other players can try to actively interrupt and engage with.

Translation:  "Bait to lure in more victims ... er, I mean, players."

[Warlawk]

12 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Give the zones some Unique NPC Groups or just Rare/Unusual ones for Max Level Players

Ah, this kind of came across as incentivizing things I guess, my bad for misinterpreting.

[MunkiLord]

6 hours ago, Dan Petro said:

If it makes you feel any better Kelly Rocket, any time I post a PVP related change that affects PvE'ers in no way what so ever, I too suffer anxiety.

 

I have anxiety that a bunch of people who are very vocal that they never have and never will take part in any thing PvP related will try to shoot down what are effectively QoL changes for either entirely selfish reasons (waaaah Devs shouldn't spend time on PvP because less people PvP) or they like to ignore that PvP changes have been made to cater to the PvE experience  / crowd and are happy to reap those "easier" rewards, while shooting down making things in any way better/ easier for PvP'ers.   See also PvP IO's dropping from all content now and added to merit reward vendors.  

 

 

This is an excellent point about PvP IOs! So since mulitple PvP rewards have already been made available via purely PvE means, parity and fairness would mean the request in the OP is a reasonable one. @kelly Rocket, this seems to be fair. PvE got something from PvP, so why oppose when the PvP people are asking for something as well?

[Steampunkette]

30 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

Translation:  "Bait to lure in more victims ... er, I mean, players."

I'm a roleplayer, Pax. I played on Virtue and I play on Everlasting. I've PvPed all of 4 times in the history of City of Heroes (And one of those was a scripted fight for an RP Event)

 

Forgive me for thinking adding some variety to the PvP zones would be a good thing! 😛 We have literally the entire game world to run around in for PvE. And I've had characters narratively tied to pretty much every zone... except the PvP ones. I just think it might be fun for me, as a specific individual, to be able to level in a PvP zone. 

 

Honestly I thoughtyou'd be happy about it. Less PvPers running around the PvE Zones 'cause they can "Hot-Level" through radios in their separate PvP areas.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Steampunkette

[PaxArcana]

29 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Forgive me for thinking adding some variety to the PvP zones would be a good thing!

I'm sure it would be.

But it needs to not be PvE activities.  Otherwise, that's what it would end up being: bait.  People who don't want to PvP, but do want to face shivans, etc, would wind up feeling compelled to go to the PvP zones.  Where, if they were actually PvPed, many would then complain - loudly, and with unkind words.  Which in turn would only increase the friction between the PvE and PvP communities.

 

So, any new variety added to a PvP zone, needs to explicitly be PvP content.

 

More zone events would be good.

Maybe something like a door mission that two opposing teams can enter (there'd have to be a LFG queue for it, of course), where each team has various objectives - you can pursue your own, or try to stop the other side, or both.  Whoever gets their objectives finished first, wins and gets a greater reward than the losing team.  (I'm not a PvPer, and even I might try that sort of thing out, at least a few times!)

 

31 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Honestly I thoughtyou'd be happy about it. Less PvPers running around the PvE Zones 'cause they can "Hot-Level" through radios in their separate PvP areas.

I'm not upset by PvPers doing their levelling in PvE areas.  They're PvPers, not lepers.  😄 

 

What I want, is the other way around:  I want not one single player to enter a PvP zone except to engage in PvP.  And I want that to happen, because there's no reason to enter those zones for any other reason.

 

...

 

Also, you can already get door missions in PvP zones.  Not story arcs, and not Radio/Paper missions, and not any sort of basic content you can't get in PvE zones already.  You even get a big fat bonus to XP and INF for the first such mission you complete each hour.

 

In fact ... doing the exact same "destroy Longbow base" mission, once an hour, four to six times a day for over a week, is how I ground my main on Live through the content gap I ran into, around level 38 ... when no-one in Grandville would talk to me until level 41 or 42 IIRC.  And, this was before pets would zone with you, too!!  So I would have to double-quick zip my way between Contact and Door (it really helped I had Teleport on him), hope no-one was camping the door (it was always the same one), and get inside to start the long, drawn-out "summon, equip, upgrade" process .. in order to do a 10-minute mission, exit, scurry back to the contact, claim my reward, and .... log out for the rest of the hour.  Over and over and over.  SO.  MUCH.  GRINDING. 😢

 

And I hated it as much for being forced to go into a PvP zone (because even the Newspaper refused to give me options anywhere else), as for the grind of it.

[Steampunkette]

So strip everything that isn't PvP out of the PvP zones would be your preference?

[justicebeliever]

 

1 hour ago, Warlawk said:

Ok, but that's not what I'm saying at all.

2 hours ago, justicebeliever said:

I get that you are concerned about the fairness and equity of what the PvP'ers are asking for in contrast to the PvE experience...But here's the thing...If you are going to talk about fairness, it goes both ways...Let's suggest that PvP gets equal development time as PvE...Because otherwise we are back to treating them like second class citizens - we get everything, you get nothing, and when you suggest something, we say, it's not fair that you get something...Let the PvP'ers decide what's most important to them...Then ask - How does this change hurt my experience?  How does it hurt the PvE experience...And stick to that....

 

But it is what you are saying...you immediately appeal to fairness as if the 2 experiences have to be the same for some reason...

1 hour ago, Warlawk said:

PvE players by and large do not enjoy grinding for these accolades either. Have you ever known anyone to actively enjoy going out to hunt down 100 fake nems? (I'm sure there's someone... there are some odd cats on the internet!). If you want a reward, you put in the time to earn it. Just because you don't happen to like that content does NOT entitle you to request the game be rewritten to accommodate your unwillingness to do the same work everyone else does for the same reward.

Why do PvP'ers have to grind the same as PvE'ers?  Explain why it's a must and why, if they don't, it damages the game for PvE?  This is like the same old PL vs Grinder, DFB vs Content argument that everyone has to play the game a certain way...or it's not "fair".

[PaxArcana]

Quote

So strip everything that isn't PvP out of the PvP zones would be your preference?

 

No, not that extreme.

 

But there should never be non-PvP content, that cannot also be had in non-PvP zones.  e.g. Radio and Paper missions against Shivans.

 

As long as the content fulfills either one of these:

• explicitly involves PvP;
• is also available in PvE zones (preferably other than through AE);

... then I'm good with it being in PvP zones.

Edited September 1, 2019 by PaxArcana

[justicebeliever]

17 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

So, any new variety added to a PvP zone, needs to explicitly be PvP content.

I'm of the opinion that any new PvE content can be in a PvP zone, but a.) it needs to be optional, not required to continue to level your character...No forcing someone into a zone, (report to a Longbow representative mission).  b.) new PvE content using new assets should be in PvE zones.  Don't make me to a PvP zone just to fight a new bad guy...

 

Other than that, if there is a creative way to reuse what we already have and give it a small but useful prize,, I'm all for putting things in PvP zones...doesn't bother me at all

20 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

And I hated it as much for being forced to go into a PvP zone

This...I agree, this sucks!

[PaxArcana]

3 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

Why do PvP'ers have to grind the same as PvE'ers?  Explain why it's a must and why, if they don't, it damages the game for PvE?

Because it's not possible for a character to be flagged "PvP only"; those PvP characters can then go into PvE content, freely and without restriction.

 

Fix that - make it so you can make a PvP-only character that cannot engage in PvE with all their levels, slotting, etc intact - and then, sure,  Insta-50's, have fun.

[justicebeliever]

1 minute ago, PaxArcana said:

Because it's not possible for a character to be flagged "PvP only"; those PvP characters can then go into PvE content, freely and without restriction.

 

Fix that - make it so you can make a PvP-only character that cannot engage in PvE with all their levels, slotting, etc intact - and then, sure,  Insta-50's, have fun.

The OP was about making a change that would only be in effect in PvP only zones...

 

I agree, it shouldn't be about a PvP'er getting a shortcut that would also apply to their PvE experience.  But they've never suggested anything remotely like that in this thread...