Pool Powers for Kheldian Alt Forms?

[SwitchFade]

8 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Meaning..a not quite 'proper' khled is gonna suck?

Let's be serious, an AT that NEEDS perma capped resists to be good..is a pretty shitty design.

Meaning..before IOs, they sucked? Right? Since none of that perma t9, perma build up stuff was possible. Game is still balanced around SOs, and assuming EVERY khled is gonna trick themselves out is kinda silly.

Apologies, I don't argue straw men.

[Nanolathe]

Genuine questions for everyone, both those who have in-depth knowledge of the Kheldian build nuances, and those that can't grok slotting and IOing them;

 

How much more difficult is it (game skill, game knowledge, Inf cost, etc) to make an averagely performing Kheldian build vs VEATs?

How much more difficult is it (game skill, game knowledge, Inf cost, etc) to make an averagely performing Kheldian build vs any other AT?

 

In my personal experience, (yes this is anecdotal and maybe you are just better at this than me) I have spent hours, even days, testing builds and mocking different builds up in Mid's. I find myself unable - literally unable - to find something I can happily understand, play, fund and generally enjoy the process of levelling, while also feeling confident that I know the "correct" way to build the character to handle mid to late game, vs the powers that are widely acknowledged to be "traps". I just hate how so many of my powers are abandoned, while the others are relied upon to an extreme degree. I think that's sloppy design. Why have the options there if they're essentially pointless?

 

I'm a relatively speaking, old hand at COH. I played all the way back to Issue 3 (EU release) if memory serves. Kheldians are cool, interesting and hold a potentially rich gameplay style unrepresented by any other AT in the game; that of the shapeshifter. 

 

But I can't play them...

 

I just don't understand why they need to be as complicated as they are. I understand that having some characters and builds that push the skill cap and game knowledge cap to the limits needs to be in the game for those that revel in pushing said limits. But that does mean that there's a whole archetype that is denied me. I'd like to play a Kheldian. But they're so damned obtuse.

 

If I'm to be brutally honest about it, the really irksome reason they're (for me) unplayable is the absolutely stupid way the powers are duplicated between forms and require slotting separately. This is redundant. I don't feel like a shapeshifter that has forms better suited to one situation or another... I feel like I'm expected to go through the game hobbling my alternate forms to over perform in just one. (PB light form is very guilty of making me feel like this, just because it's so wildly better than the alternatives) 

 

I have a multi-page document that actually took the OP's position and carefully laid out the power progression of the Kheldians into 4 separate forms in the form of pool powers with Human form as the default. But the flippant nature of how this idea has been ripped down for suggesting what seemed to amount to just a quality of life change to the AT just puts me off even finishing the development of it.

 

Are Kheldians the sacred cow that we just can't talk about changing?

[Redlynne]

30 minutes ago, Nanolathe said:

Are Kheldians the sacred cow that we just can't talk about changing?

Every sacred cow must be BBQ-ed.

 

It's not that they can't be changed, it's that making ANY changes carries a whoop-adds can of tentacles full of risks ... plus the fact that you're never going to please EVERYBODY no matter what you do (including doing nothing).

 

For example ...

In the past couple of days I've been noodling ideas for how to tweak Kheldians so they aren't quite so lockout intensive with their forms.  A pair of ideas suggest themselves.

 

One is that when shifting into Nova and Dwarf forms, any toggles that are already running remain toggled on but you lose the ability to activate powers that aren't allowed in that form, but would still be able to toggle off.  So in forms, the only lockout is the ability to toggle on, while toggle off is retained, and any toggles toggled on before shifting forms remain toggled on.  This means that you only need to revert to Human form in order to toggle on, rather than it meaning that toggles automatically drop when shifting to forms.

 

The other idea involves the mutual exclusion of powers (take this one and you can't get that one) involved in some powersets (Arachnos Soldiers/Crabs/Banes have some of these, as does the Sentinel version of Super Reflexes with the Practiced Brawler vs Master Brawler option) where essentially if you take the Human form version of a Nova or Dwarf power then the Nova or Dwarf form version of that power gets "locked out" and the Human form version of it gets "locked in" and can be used in more than just Human form.  An example of this would be Proton Scatter (Human) and Bright Nova Scatter (Nova) ... with the idea being that if you take the Human form power of Proton Scatter the Nova form version of Bright Nova Scatter would be locked out/removed from access, but you'd be able to use Proton Scatter in both Human and Nova forms so you'd only need to slot 1 power instead of 2 powers.  The only problem with this plan is that it's possible (for someone new to the Archetype) to invest slots into the Nova form version and then "lose" those slots when taking the Human form version of the power ... which is a problem that would be rectified by a respec, which would have been a problem in Ye Olden Days™ due to the scarcity of respecs (which are now tokens that drop and can be traded and sold for INF).  So there's an edge case to be guarded against, but it can be guarded against via respecs.

[Nanolathe]

43 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Every sacred cow must be BBQ-ed.

Absolutely. and I wish that these kinds of threads, especially Kheldian focused threads, didn't get immediately shut down with an offhand "/jranger"

 

Pool Power style seems like that would be an excellent way to categorise the different forms, allow gating of more impactful powers for pushing for mastery of a form, while allowing more of a pick'n'mix for dipping into multiple pools at your own pace, or complete dedication to Human form. Give each pool more than the standard 5 powers of course, but have the Nova hold the most powerful Blasts, while the Dwarf the shields and mez protection, and ... light/shadow form the... utility powers? buffs? pets? ... something like that. I haven't completely paired-down exactly the way I'd split up the powers between the forms in a fair way... but something like this that gives the player the ability to make multiple different viable builds that put their focus in different forms, or a real jack of all trades that can react to a changing fight situation and adapt.

 

Alternatively:

Why not Shapeshifting as style toggles, a la; Dual Pistol Ammo Swap, Bio Armour Adaptations, or Staff Mastery Forms? This would solve the awful slotting mess by removing redundant power selections at the very least. Rework how Nova, Dwarf and Light/Shadow forms impact the base power selections from the primary and secondary set? I can still understand "greying out" a selection of powers to give the different forms a focus... but not having to take the same power twice, only to ignore one of them because it's the sub-optimal version would only be an improvement to the AT.

 

All this frankenslotting for +globalrecharge and recharge procs for PB Light Form, smacks of trying to fix a feature that would better just making it a toggle like all the other forms. Light Form is casting such a long shadow to the point that you're willing to slot a dozen of a single proc in all your powers just to keep it online. Sure it's a unique slotting build for just one AT... but it's unique for all the wrong reasons.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Nanolathe

[Galaxy Brain]

I agree with making the forms more of a stat change. Like, under the hood the dwarf form is similar to a super beefy armor toggle, why not treat it as such with certain powers greyed out and others get "orange ringed" to signify they're better in the form?

 

Also, I want a ws lobster with orbiting death damnit lol

[Redlynne]

5 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Also, I want a ws lobster with orbiting death damnit lol

YAR ...  😎

[SwitchFade]

5 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

Genuine questions for everyone, both those who have in-depth knowledge of the Kheldian build nuances, and those that can't grok slotting and IOing them;

 

How much more difficult is it (game skill, game knowledge, Inf cost, etc) to make an averagely performing Kheldian build vs VEATs?

How much more difficult is it (game skill, game knowledge, Inf cost, etc) to make an averagely performing Kheldian build vs any other AT?

 

In my personal experience, (yes this is anecdotal and maybe you are just better at this than me) I have spent hours, even days, testing builds and mocking different builds up in Mid's. I find myself unable - literally unable - to find something I can happily understand, play, fund and generally enjoy the process of levelling, while also feeling confident that I know the "correct" way to build the character to handle mid to late game, vs the powers that are widely acknowledged to be "traps". I just hate how so many of my powers are abandoned, while the others are relied upon to an extreme degree. I think that's sloppy design. Why have the options there if they're essentially pointless?

 

I'm a relatively speaking, old hand at COH. I played all the way back to Issue 3 (EU release) if memory serves. Kheldians are cool, interesting and hold a potentially rich gameplay style unrepresented by any other AT in the game; that of the shapeshifter. 

 

But I can't play them...

 

I just don't understand why they need to be as complicated as they are. I understand that having some characters and builds that push the skill cap and game knowledge cap to the limits needs to be in the game for those that revel in pushing said limits. But that does mean that there's a whole archetype that is denied me. I'd like to play a Kheldian. But they're so damned obtuse.

 

If I'm to be brutally honest about it, the really irksome reason they're (for me) unplayable is the absolutely stupid way the powers are duplicated between forms and require slotting separately. This is redundant. I don't feel like a shapeshifter that has forms better suited to one situation or another... I feel like I'm expected to go through the game hobbling my alternate forms to over perform in just one. (PB light form is very guilty of making me feel like this, just because it's so wildly better than the alternatives) 

 

I have a multi-page document that actually took the OP's position and carefully laid out the power progression of the Kheldians into 4 separate forms in the form of pool powers with Human form as the default. But the flippant nature of how this idea has been ripped down for suggesting what seemed to amount to just a quality of life change to the AT just puts me off even finishing the development of it.

 

Are Kheldians the sacred cow that we just can't talk about changing?

Succinctly, the AT is intended to be different.

 

I understand your frustrations; however, much of what you don't like about it is what many do like. Frankly, the AT may not be for you. For example, I detest corruptors and won't play one. I do not feel they need changing, it's just not fun for me. I loathe masterminds, but that's just me, they're mostly fine and fun for others 

 

Kheldians play fine and are not intended to be set and forget, like some sets and ATs. Sure, PBs need help fixing some wonky mechanics, like excessive KB, but Kheldians overall are fine.

 

There are a few things that make them simple to play,

 

1. Set up keybind form/tray swaps <-- there could be a tutorial about this, because this is essential

2. Decide your path at lvl 1: human only, biform or triform<-- this is necessary

3. Realize from being an experienced CoH'er how to build in game<--epoc ATs unlocked at 50, so anyone who got there had experience in game, so they're a class that is for a person with experience

4. Slot for intent, choose the powers that work for your build<--this is crucial. Unlike other, simpler classes, the Kheldian offers a huge diversity of equally capable builds. Pick what you like and slot from gameplay experience

 

The reason many of the powers across many of the forms feel similar is because the AT was designed for more path options while retaining it's identity, obviously constrained by game engine mechanics. Form powers should be similar, enhanced by form aspects.

 

Speaking from a depth of warshade experience, they are extremely easy to level. They become unstoppable at lvl 39, just like many ATs. I am a tri-former so...

 

Free teleport travel at lvl 1, so fun

 

Teleport friend, also fun

 

Pick up Nova at 6, this is your blasty, slot its powers first

 

Grab your human stun

 

Grab your self heal/self end recovery

 

Pick up dwarf at 20, slot as desired for tanky

 

Grab hasten

 

Pick up Nuke and slot when able

 

Grab fluffy pets, easy to get 2-3 out perma and they give you huge damage

 

Grab self Rez

 

At 38 grab tankmage eclipse and slot it to get perma

 

Then: i human and invis, run up and enter a big group, hit eclipse to go 85% resist all, double mire, hit nuke, go to Nova form, hit 2 aoes, drop to human and Necro a pet, hit the end heal if needed, on to next group..

 

Rinse and repeat. The warshade is very powerful, even on just SOs. Could warshades use a bit of tweaking like PB's? Sure, give lobster orbiting debt, give human status protection in shields and raise the damage cap.

 

Remember, Nova form ignored movement suppression, warshades can keep themselves at damage cap, have 2 pets, be at 85% resist all, self heal, self end, Rez, teleport across zones, teleport teammates, stealth, tank, stun, slow and more.

 

I can't wrap my head around masterminds. Maybe the AT is not for you.

 

Also, read the MF'n Warshade guide.

 

[Nanolathe]

14 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Succinctly, the AT is intended to be different.

<snip>

Frankly, the AT may not be for you.

<snip>

There are a few things that make them simple to play,

<snip>

Also, read the MF'n Warshade guide.

<snip>

Firstly, thank you for trying to give a little advice on how to manage the unwieldy playstyle of Kheldians.

But it is just that - unwieldy.  

 

I main a Mastermind, and from the very start (Issue 6) they were given macros as powers that give you the ability to control your pets. And they got given a UI element to help manage their pets. But they weren't given absolute control and they can be made more optimal with binds and further macros (of which I use many). The AT was designed to be different, and yet is approachable and playable "out of the box". It's not perfect and there have been a lot of discussions about how to fix some of the more egregious problems for MMs, especially in the late game content. However I don't see many MM threads that have such a - and I'll be blunt so as to be clear here - a gatekeeper mindset that demands the AT is "just not for me" and is "fine as it is".

 

For Kheldians, I have used the recommended macros, I have read and re-read the guides, and every single one of them extols the virtue of how powerful the AT can be, and then proceeds to have a not-inconsiderable length of the guide just giving suggestions and workarounds for poorly implemented control of the shapeshifting - the defining feature of the AT in the first place. When the AT is legitimately almost unmanageable without these macros, I see that as a bug - not a feature that's working as intended.

 

The Shapeshifting AT is difficult to make work in a fluid manner when it comes to shifting forms. There have been many newer systems and potential control methods that would alleviate this barrier to entry and I think the AT should take advantage of them.

 

When the AT has over a dozen powers that are essentially 1-to-1 duplicates of each other, I see that as sloppy, bloated and compromised design. In fact that's pretty much confirmed by the Devs when we saw that design document for what the original vision of them was to be. The whole AT is a compromise, due to what the engine was capable of at the time and rushed due to the constraints of how the release schedule was implemented. I just think the AT should update with the new engine features. The whole AT is essentially unchanged from its creation for Issue 3!

 

The AT isn't bad, it's just unapproachable for many people. That's the part I'd like to see changed.

 

 

[ABlueThingy]

1 hour ago, Nanolathe said:

 

When the AT has over a dozen powers that are essentially 1-to-1 duplicates of each other, I see that as sloppy, bloated and compromised design. In fact that's pretty much confirmed by the Devs when we saw that design document for what the original vision of them was to be. The whole AT is a compromise, due to what the engine was capable of at the time and rushed due to the constraints of how the release schedule was implemented. I just think the AT should update with the new engine features. The whole AT is essentially unchanged from its creation for Issue 3!

 

 

 

Uh, you have that design doc handy?  I'd love to look at it

[Nanolathe]

43 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

Uh, you have that design doc handy?  I'd love to look at it

Sure thing. I can't remember where this was originally leaked. Probably scrubbed from everywhere. I hope I'm not breaking any rules by re-posting it here...

 

The vast majority of it is lore and background, but the "crunch" starts in section 3.3

Kheldian_Epic_Archetypes.docx

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

Firstly, thank you for trying to give a little advice on how to manage the unwieldy playstyle of Kheldians.

But it is just that - unwieldy.  

 

I main a Mastermind, and from the very start (Issue 6) they were given macros as powers that give you the ability to control your pets. And they got given a UI element to help manage their pets. But they weren't given absolute control and they can be made more optimal with binds and further macros (of which I use many). The AT was designed to be different, and yet is approachable and playable "out of the box". It's not perfect and there have been a lot of discussions about how to fix some of the more egregious problems for MMs, especially in the late game content. However I don't see many MM threads that have such a - and I'll be blunt so as to be clear here - a gatekeeper mindset that demands the AT is "just not for me" and is "fine as it is".

 

For Kheldians, I have used the recommended macros, I have read and re-read the guides, and every single one of them extols the virtue of how powerful the AT can be, and then proceeds to have a not-inconsiderable length of the guide just giving suggestions and workarounds for poorly implemented control of the shapeshifting - the defining feature of the AT in the first place. When the AT is legitimately almost unmanageable without these macros, I see that as a bug - not a feature that's working as intended.

 

The Shapeshifting AT is difficult to make work in a fluid manner when it comes to shifting forms. There have been many newer systems and potential control methods that would alleviate this barrier to entry and I think the AT should take advantage of them.

 

When the AT has over a dozen powers that are essentially 1-to-1 duplicates of each other, I see that as sloppy, bloated and compromised design. In fact that's pretty much confirmed by the Devs when we saw that design document for what the original vision of them was to be. The whole AT is a compromise, due to what the engine was capable of at the time and rushed due to the constraints of how the release schedule was implemented. I just think the AT should update with the new engine features. The whole AT is essentially unchanged from its creation for Issue 3!

 

The AT isn't bad, it's just unapproachable for many people. That's the part I'd like to see changed.

 

 

There's nothing quite like being misquoted.

 

Fine, you don't get it, I understand your OPINION.

 

Many disagree. So, thanks for you input and your perspective, but that's not facts so, maybe not the AT for you.

Edited April 12, 2020 by SwitchFade

[SwitchFade]

4 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Oops

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Galaxy Brain]

If you need macros to use an AT, its unwieldy 

[SwitchFade]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

If you need macros to use an AT, its unwieldy 

I don't disagree that having to use a macro should be solved, but being that, the at isn't unplayable, bad or underpowered as the OP and many others elude to.

[Nanolathe]

20 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

I don't disagree that having to use a macro should be solved, but being that, the at isn't unplayable, bad or underpowered as the OP and many others elude to.

I'm certainly not saying it's underpowered. I've seen the numbers. Perma-Light form is *far* from underpowered, and I've seen War Shades in action too.

Again, the AT isn't bad. It is less approachable than I desire it to be.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Nanolathe

[Chris24601]

The fact that “it’s fine if you rely on this one specific pool power and multiple sets of IOs that go for 10mil each and massive amounts of recharge” says it’s not actually fine.

 

Indeed, it’s just another example of how Hasten utterly warps the rest of the game around itself because if a billion inf build with Hasten can fix it; it’s not actually broken according to some people.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

The fact that “it’s fine if you rely on this one specific pool power and multiple sets of IOs that go for 10mil each and massive amounts of recharge” says it’s not actually fine.

 

Indeed, it’s just another example of how Hasten utterly warps the rest of the game around itself because if a billion inf build with Hasten can fix it; it’s not actually broken according to some people.

And again this is pure hyperbole on your part. An SO based character will function in baseline difficulty solo, or be viable in a baseline difficulty team just fine. Yes if your running in a +4x8 mish solo, you more than likely are running at least a few hundred mil inf build, depending on the AT and power picks you started with.

 

Your acting like a tri form SO build cant solo or something, or like a Human form perma light form is a must just to function in the game at all.