Opinion: Tier 1 Attacks Should Cost 0 Endurance

[oedipus_tex]

If this has been discussed before on this forum, my apologies. I know we discussed it from time to time on the live servers.

 

Like it says in the title, in my opinion we would solve major game issues if Tier 1 attacks for all archetypes cost 0 endurance. If there is some practical reason why 0 doesn't work, then some minimal number like 1 or 2 should work. I am playing a Controller right now in this exact scenario, whose endurance keeps tanking, leaving me with very little to do.

 

The reason for this is simple. Endurance was an issue the original developers never solved. It was so punishing in vanilla CoX that everyone specced for Stamina, and then the developers gave us inherent Stamina.

 

Still, the problem persists. It's especially bad for low damage characters like Controllers. 

 

The T1 attack represents the most basic capability of a character. It should be practically inherent to them and cost nothing to use.

 

ATs with 2 T1 attacks (Blasters mainly) could get both free, or you could arbitrarily decide only the "real" blast counts. 

 

[Lazarillo]

I wouldn't mind an approach that looked into this, at least.  It kinda solves the problem that you hit in, say, Martial Arts, where there's really just no reason to take, say, Thunder Kick.  I recall Castle (or one of the other powers devs) in the old days saying something along the lines of "you should never look at a power in your primary or secondary and view it as the 'skippable' one".  I'm not sure that's the perspective of the current team, but it's one that I, personally, rather like.

[boggo2300]

What?  so rather than learn to end manage, just have a freebie power (which you do by the way called BRAWL) 

 

/jranger it's already city of facerolls, let's not turn it into of city of I win without even playing

[oedipus_tex]

18 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

What?  so rather than learn to end manage, just have a freebie power (which you do by the way called BRAWL) 

 

/jranger it's already city of facerolls, let's not turn it into of city of I win without even playing

 

 

"Endurance Management" at low levels is not strategic. It's simply not fun. The "strategy," such as it is, is to rocket past the unbearable low levels so you can get some decent slotting. 

 

Making low level attacks cost no endurance will not greatly impact the end game, but will do wonders to make the early crawl less of a battle versus the blue bar. It's a huge weakness of this game. 

Edited December 31, 2019 by oedipus_tex

[boggo2300]

2 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

"Endurance Management" at low levels is not strategic. It's simply not fun. The "strategy," such as it is, is to rocket past the unbearable low levels so you can get some decent slotting. 

 

Making low level attacks cost no endurance will not greatly impact the end game, but will do wonders to make the early crawl less of a battle versus the blue bar. It's a huge weakness of this game. 

I don't care much about the end game, levelling from 1 to 50 is the game I play, you are missing my point, if the early game isn't a battle against the blue bar it's going to be pointlessly easy

[oedipus_tex]

1 minute ago, boggo2300 said:

I don't care much about the end game, levelling from 1 to 50 is the game I play, you are missing my point, if the early game isn't a battle against the blue bar it's going to be pointlessly easy

 

 

I don't agree with you. That's really I can say.

 

I don't think a Tier 1 attack is strong enough to totally tilt the gameplay. Many characters skip their T1s unless forced into it because the damage is so low. My Dominators just remove them from the bar after leveling up enough because they are too weak. At least if they cost zero/low endurance there'd be reason to want them at all.

 

[RabbitUp]

I don't agree with this in terms of endurance management. Even controllers who I play a lot, have plenty of solo damage with prestige attacks and taking the attack from Sorcery or Force of Will, both of which work with Containment.

 

It could be an interesting change, though, for the very first attack from Primary sets, who almost everyone skips.

Edited December 31, 2019 by RabbitUp

[oedipus_tex]

5 minutes ago, RabbitUp said:

It could be an interesting change, though, for the very first attack from Primary sets, who almost everyone skips.

 

 

For Controllers, that's the power I'm talking about. The single target immobilize. Chillblain, Ring of Fire, etc. I actually do usually take it when leveling up, because it's damage and it increase solo speed (to the small extent I deal with it). I rarely keep them after getting to 50.

 

In overall, the reason I want this is I find it harder to balance endurance on a low level character than a high level one. To me, that seems flipped versus how the game should work. The endurance puzzle should start relatively simple and grow harder as you progress.

 

I admit I may have oversimplified how this would affect damage-focused ATs tho. On Controllers suddenly being able to use the single target immobilize reliably is unlikely to change much of the big picture except to make it somewhat easier to pump through those early levels.

[Haijinx]

Broadsword and Katana are going to love this option

[nihilii]

I don't believe there is currently an endurance management problem in CoH.
 

To be fair and to account for bias, I've never believed there was one.

 

But surely we can agree with all the tools at our disposal...

 

- inspirations

- 0 end Brawl

- inherent Fitness at level 2
- cheap Homecoming IOs

- free attunement through the market

- Recovery Serum at P2W

- amplifiers

- ATOs

- easy incarnates (-> cardiac/vigor/ageless)

 

...endurance management is less of a problem now than it ever was at any other point in the history of the game, provided you use available options.

I have actually never managed to run out of endurance on a lowbie before picking up Hasten. And I really only feel the crunch once I'm running a full attack chain with Fighting and Leadership toggles, but before incarnates and a full IO build. So for me the puzzle of endurance management definitely works on a rising curve.

Edited December 31, 2019 by nihilii

[boggo2300]

Look at the end costs for tier 1 powers, you really think knocking their minimal end costs to zero is going to make anyone not using them use them?  because pretty much the people not using them are the min-maxer crowd, and it's not going to change things for them...

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

Look at the end costs for tier 1 powers, you really think knocking their minimal end costs to zero is going to make anyone not using them use them?  because pretty much the people not using them are the min-maxer crowd, and it's not going to change things for them...

Broadsword and Kat have T1 and T2 flipped compared to other sets.   

BS especially has a high End T1.  

 

This would be awesome for them. 

Course probably not balanced, but hey, Power creep is cool now. 

[boggo2300]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Course probably not balanced, but hey, Power creep is cool now. 

not for some of us

 

 

and btw Kat and BS tier1/2 really grinds my OCD 

Edited December 31, 2019 by boggo2300

[Haijinx]

Just now, boggo2300 said:

not for some of us

I missed my sarcasm font 

[boggo2300]

Just now, Haijinx said:

I missed my sarcasm font 

I know you feel the same way about it that I do

[Outrider_01]

3 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

would solve major game issues if Tier 1 attacks for all archetypes cost 0 endurance. 

that's not game breaking.  Slot accuracy and the cost of endurance is negated when it hits.  There should always be a cost, other wise might as well ask for zero cost on everything.

[boggo2300]

Just now, Outrider_01 said:

that's not game breaking.  Slot accuracy and the cost of endurance is negated when it hits.  There should always be a cost, other wise might as well ask for zero cost on everything.

Just need a "I win" button and everything will be hunky dory!!

 

My tongue is so firmly in my cheek I look like I have an abscess!

[Haijinx]

Easier to just use to console commands 

[boggo2300]

9 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Easier to just use to console commands 

you're adding difficulty that would not be appreciated though 😄 having to actually TYPE!!!

[Saiyajinzoningen]

epic AT's are serious end hogs even with decent management this idea is a ok by me

[boggo2300]

3 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

epic AT's are serious end hogs even with decent management this idea is a ok by me

Can't say I've ever had much end issues with either Khelds or Veats, though single form khelds to suffer a little in the late teens, nothing drastic though, but they are edge cases of building outside the AT so that to be expected

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

Can't say I've ever had much end issues with either Khelds or Veats, though single form khelds to suffer a little in the late teens, nothing drastic though, but they are edge cases of building outside the AT so that to be expected

Well Khelds are end hogs.  Because their damage is puny.  

 

Unless they are in Nova - or I supposed Dwarf.  

 

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

Well Khelds are end hogs.  Because their damage is puny.  

 

Unless they are in Nova - or I supposed Dwarf.  

 

Well single form Khelds don't have the options of Squid or Lobster, though why anyone would want nerf build like that is beyond me (and I've actually done it with both a WS and a PB, I still don't get it!)

[DrRocket]

By now I have played many different archtypes now and during live, and have noted that endurance issiues at low levels are true for all archtypes but some seem to be more accute than others. At times, I figured it has to do with how much real damage you do to a target and the energy cost in doing so as the driving factor. I remember in th elive days, my defender guzzling through the endurance bar to just kill a white mob, then it was a retreat or quaff endurance inspirations to keep fighting, while with my scrapper it was hit bam, bang and done, which resulted with modest endurance consumption.

 

In today's reload, I feel the Homecomming developers have really done alot to make the game more playable for fun sakes than for grinding. Travel in the live days was horrid,  now you can buy incredibly good travel abilities, teleports to missions, and more. The game is now less grindy and actually I can focus more in enjoying the game than being a meter-made. I also remember at low levels, there was a huge need for more attacks since many of the support classes damage was akin to a wet noodle, and they would strike for litle effect a mob and then wait to get a chance to get to use their wet noodle again, now with all the prestige powers you have an ample number of attacks both melee and ranged to indulge yourself. To me those are great Quality of Life  improvements.

 

I know that endurance at 50+ incarnate is a non-issue, but it sure suxors for many players wanting to enjoy the game and their character is continuously detoggling or gasping for edurance.

 

Some classes their endurance woes comes from the large number of toggles they must utilize to attain a reasonable level of performance, perhaps a reduction on endurance cost on toggles would be appropriate.

 

Some classes their endurance woes comes from the low damage output of the attack and requires many, man uses and thus perhaps a reduction on endurance owuld be appropriate.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

i think the balance issue with this suggestion is no end plus fast recharge = spam

 

also widows also suffer from endurance issues

 

just slow for endurance reduction early on and it should help loads