What is the full story of Praetoria?

[Sunsette]

That brings up an amusing note: I've been throwing around ideas for a Praetorian character that is not from the Empire and I'm trying to think how they would refer to their home dimension. If you're outside of Cole's regime entirely (rather than within it but resisting) you probably object to that being the name for your whole world.

[Darmian]

1 minute ago, Sunsette said:

That brings up an amusing note: I've been throwing around ideas for a Praetorian character that is not from the Empire and I'm trying to think how they would refer to their home dimension. If you're outside of Cole's regime entirely (rather than within it but resisting) you probably object to that being the name for your whole world.

I actually know how that feels to a certain extent.

[Darmian]

23 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

That brings up an amusing note: I've been throwing around ideas for a Praetorian character that is not from the Empire and I'm trying to think how they would refer to their home dimension. If you're outside of Cole's regime entirely (rather than within it but resisting) you probably object to that being the name for your whole world.

 

@Sunsette, while maybe not germane to your idea, @Ankylosaur wrote an interesting AE that touches on, effectively, "Non Praetorian Praetorians", It can be found here. [Neutral] [45-54] Ninjas In the Wind - Arc ID: 40394 - Mission Architect - Homecoming (homecomingservers.com)

Now, I really SHOULD be advertizing my own Goldside AEs, but this is well crafted and worth a look.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Darmian

[Take One]

5 hours ago, Sunsette said:

If you're outside of Cole's regime entirely (rather than within it but resisting)

 

As far as I know there is nothing outside of Cole's regime. Maybe there was a few dissenting nations back when the rest of the world elected him Emperor, but I'm assuming they were easy pickings for the Devouring Earth.

[Sunsette]

3 minutes ago, Take One said:

 

As far as I know there is nothing outside of Cole's regime. Maybe there was a few dissenting nations back when the rest of the world elected him Emperor, but I'm assuming they were easy pickings for the Devouring Earth.

 

I doubt it's flourishing or even much of a life, but I doubt Hamidon was ruthlessly efficient enough to wipe out literally everyone if the survivors of Praetoria are managing a living after Tyrant nuked the place to death. Scattered settlement survivors, etc.

 

Interrogator Kang also makes some oblique mentions of countries outside of Praetoria. He *could* be referring to conquered areas that aren't well-administrated but the lack of easy familiarity he displays makes that seem unlikely, to me.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Sunsette

[Take One]

Ah, you mean after the fall of Cole. I'm sure Hamidon could be that ruthless but maybe it isn't focusing on finishing off the last remnants of humanity now that the world is basically theirs. As evidence, there's the arc set in First Ward where the player goes back to try tro establish a stronghold and protect the place from the Hamidon monsters surrounding it. I don't doubt that Hamidon could destroy that place if it brought all of its forces down on it - but it doesn't. It wouldn't make for much of a story if it did, I suppose.

 

There are other countries (Neo Tokyo is mentioned at some point), but an emperor rules over an empire, which usually consists of several countries. A soldier in Rome (the city) could talk about countries outside of Rome, which are still a part of the Roman empire.

[TwoDee]

@Zhym @Darmian

 

To follow up on the timeline of the Praetorian War starting before First Ward - this is literally based on the time in which this content dropped.

 

City of Heroes issues were published linearily, carrying on an ongoing metaplot 'in real time.'

 

BAF, Lambda, Sutter TF were from the April 5th, 2011 issue.

 

Keyes Island was June 28th, 2011

 

First Ward, Underground, and Vanessa DeVore dying dropped September 13th, 2011 (as well as Galaxy blowing up)

 

TPN was dropped in a micro-issue shortly before Night Ward and Magisterum dropped.

[TwoDee]

Furthermore, Praetorian Duray collapses into goo and escapes during Sutter TF, and the next iteration of his consciousness is sent to First Ward during the active hostilities of the Praetorian War, as indicated by his dialogue in which he expresses annoyance at being pulled from the battle lines:

 

Quote

Combat Start:

Colonel Duray: Do you understand how ANNOYING it is for me to even be here?!

Colonel Duray: I've got better things to do than clean up Tilman's mess!

Colonel Duray: Like, say, invading a WHOLE DIMENSION!

 

[Darmian]

24 minutes ago, TwoDee said:

@Zhym @Darmian

 

To follow up on the timeline of the Praetorian War starting before First Ward - this is literally based on the time in which this content dropped.

 

City of Heroes issues were published linearily, carrying on an ongoing metaplot 'in real time.'

 

BAF, Lambda, Sutter TF were from the April 5th, 2011 issue.

 

Keyes Island was June 28th, 2011

 

First Ward, Underground, and Vanessa DeVore dying dropped September 13th, 2011 (as well as Galaxy blowing up)

 

TPN was dropped in a micro-issue shortly before Night Ward and Magisterum dropped.

 

Those are good guidelines, @TwoDee. My replay/investigations into First Ward though were aimed at seeing how much detail of the War is known/mentioned/whatever in the First Ward arcs as a whole, especially if you play as a 24 carat Gold who just goes to First Ward after Neutropolis and never crosses the Rift to Primal. Trying to tease out those nuances.

 

I tweaked your original timeline to say that Terra Volta was the first proper attack on Primal and thus the actual start of the war, again, Apex literally tells us this himself.  Unless we were to just keep going back and include Jenkins and Tina as the start, which I don't think (a) they were (just crossover skirmishes) and (b) no one needs that headache anyway!

 

My only issue with Praetorian Duray is even allowing for his floating consciousness from clone to clone, we still don't know how many of him there are, and whether those minds are (a) the original mind (There's a piece of text story where Cole personally kills one of him and orders a replacement and it reads like the new one won't know what the old one did) or (b) are any of them the original?

 

Why the hell didn't the OG Devs have a Dev position called Continuity?  Sigh.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Darmian

[TwoDee]

I'll grant you that Duray is a liar and a clone and not necessarily the best source.  There's also wiggle room, likely owing to First Ward being written while the prior taskforces were still live and relevant, on the status of Marauder.

• During the events of Lambda, he appears as the Praetor in charge of Neutropolis, and is stated to be in command of the IDF based in Lambda (April 5 2011).  Supposedly he's taken into custody here after the serum wears off, but we don't know what the timeline is on that.
• Marauder appears as the Praetor in charge of Nova Praetoria and is explicitly referred to as commanding the PPD during the events of First Ward, which is anachronistic to Lambda if he's actually been captured. (Sep 13 2011)
• During the (then-unreleased) New Praetorians arc, Marauder is seen in Imperial City, having spent the whole time fighting and very obviously not in custody.  At this point he's been withered into nothingness by Berry's serum, but Marchand's dialogue that Vanguard has been 'tracking him' implies that he's been monitored but not captured.

I think the way to reconcile the three is just to ignore the wiki's insistence that he's been captured at Lambda:

• Praetorian War starts
• Marauder stays home as the head of all internal security for Praetoria as Marchand is sidelined by Cole (souce: Provost Marchand).  This gives him jurisdiction over the PPD and the IDF garrison within the city, as indicated by the shared hierarchy and Marchand's 'Provost' military police title
• Marauder gets his ass beat at Lambda but recovers following the extraction of the Incarnates
• Marauder pivots to defend the Magisterum during the events of First Ward - he's weaker at this point, albeit still too much for a level 25 to fight on their own
• Marauder goes missing when Imperial City collapses into anarchy and it's assumed he's fled (source: Praetor Sinclair, BV's arc)
• Marauder resurfaces with his Destroyers in a futile attempt to defend Imperial City, and is easily chumped by the Hamidon

Edited June 30, 2021 by TwoDee
addtl details

[TwoDee]

On 6/29/2021 at 1:12 AM, Take One said:

Ah, you mean after the fall of Cole. I'm sure Hamidon could be that ruthless but maybe it isn't focusing on finishing off the last remnants of humanity now that the world is basically theirs. As evidence, there's the arc set in First Ward where the player goes back to try tro establish a stronghold and protect the place from the Hamidon monsters surrounding it. I don't doubt that Hamidon could destroy that place if it brought all of its forces down on it - but it doesn't. It wouldn't make for much of a story if it did, I suppose.

 

As a minor point of contention, we know that the Last Bastion is not First Ward, because Number Six tells you explicitly what the Last Bastion is in his arc: it's a wilderness outpost set up by a unit of IDF deserters to try to flee from Cole's wrath, using stolen Lambda Turrets and Sonic Fences to hold the exfil point against Hamidon.  Vanguard moved to reinforce them, and bob's your uncle.

 

The topography is similar because (1) reused assets and (2) the 'core' of the Praetorian civilization is around the Florida Keys/Gulf of Mexico region so it's understandable they'd all have similar-looking wildernesses.

[Darmian]

As usual, excellent work, @TwoDee.  My own explorations have been tight into the immediate Pre War period, leading into the opening salvoes. As you know it's murky to say the least.

 

As an aside have you spotted the dead supers in Night Ward?  My assumption, I think reasonable, is they were members of early Powers Division who died in the Hamidon attack. That's an assumption but based on the fact there's no visible Powers Division structure/hierarchy in First Ward when we get there and no overt part of the War is fought there or in Night Ward (Vetrano's  arc and the Sorceress Serene arc are vital but side theaters).

[TwoDee]

I've spotted them, but I can't say I gave them too much thought.  I was more distracted by the literal Abrahamic angels in Night Ward and what that represents hahahaha!  I think you're right on the money, though, that those were probably the First Ward Powers Division, who got wiped out when Keyes sonic-nuked the district.

 

On 6/29/2021 at 12:59 AM, Sunsette said:

I doubt it's flourishing or even much of a life, but I doubt Hamidon was ruthlessly efficient enough to wipe out literally everyone if the survivors of Praetoria are managing a living after Tyrant nuked the place to death. Scattered settlement survivors, etc.

 

Moving on to this, I seriously doubt this characterization that Hamidon would just lazybones on his genocidal forever-war because he took the planet.  Throughout Number Six's arc, we are repeatedly reminded that Hamidon is obsessively thorough.  Enemy chatter in the Hamidon's woods has Hamidon monstrosities keeping an active tally of the systematic extermination of all human life on the planet:

 

Quote

Infested T.E.S.T. Provost: The world is being reformed. The last holdouts in the area known as Japan have fallen.

Infested T.E.S.T. Provost: The creatures in South America can be used to destroy the last remnants of this Vanguard.

Infested T.E.S.T. Provost: The Hamidon has given birth to new life in Germany. They could not last.

 

I'm not saying that "I made a life in the wilderness after the fall of Praetoria" isn't a viable character concept, because it is, but you'd need to have kind of a Zion-from-the-Matrix thing going.  Hamidon doesn't just ignore human settlements or, indeed, nations.  Furthermore, when you talk to Hamidon directly in that very arc, Hamidon is quite particular that he doesn't believe in 'not all humans.'  He intends to exterminate all human life on the planet, and he's doing just that.

 

Quote

• You call this creation? You're killing everyone!

I am purging a problem, Character. I shall try to put it in a way you understand.

I am removing the criminal so they never have the chance to commit the crime. Humanity as a whole has proven lacking, they do not deserve the Earth, the beauty that I have seen. I must save this beauty, save this Earth. In order to do that, the problem must be removed.

You will not get in my way, Character, not any further. You represent humanity's new Cole, the one who says they can be saved. But I will not give you the same mercy I gave Cole. As we speak, my new life is consuming your last diseased humanity.

You cannot save them, Character, for you too will be consumed and become part of something greater, something more beautiful than yourself.

 

[Sunsette]

...OK, so that's not at all actually what I was saying.

 

I'm saying that if the Devouring Earth hasn't managed to actually cleanse Praetoria of all people even after he's gone full genocide all over again, I see no reason to think they were so perfectly efficient *before* the fall of Praetoria that no one could have survived while he had a deal running with Cole. I highly doubt that the Devouring Earth was going "oh! These people don't have the Gold Star of Praetoria! Kill them! But spare those other dudes, they have gold." considering that they apparently ignored the affront of the sonic fencing for decades. There was just a straight-up lower level of DE activity period at that point.

 

My concept is in reference to the idea of a survivor of the Praetorian dimension who was nevertheless not a member of the Empire. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Sunsette

[Take One]

1 hour ago, TwoDee said:

the Last Bastion is not First Ward

 

I only played it once so that information passed me by.

A little annoyed by it though. First Ward should turn into Last Bastion. First to Last, you see? It makes sense.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Take One

[TwoDee]

1 hour ago, Sunsette said:

...OK, so that's not at all actually what I was saying.

 

I'm saying that if the Devouring Earth hasn't managed to actually cleanse Praetoria of all people even after he's gone full genocide all over again, I see no reason to think they were so perfectly efficient *before* the fall of Praetoria that no one could have survived while he had a deal running with Cole. I highly doubt that the Devouring Earth was going "oh! These people don't have the Gold Star of Praetoria! Kill them! But spare those other dudes, they have gold." considering that they apparently ignored the affront of the sonic fencing for decades. There was just a straight-up lower level of DE activity period at that point.

 

My concept is in reference to the idea of a survivor of the Praetorian dimension who was nevertheless not a member of the Empire. 

 

The impression I got from the Praetoria lore was that there were no non-"Praetorian" nations, seeing as the compact with Hamidon that created Praetoria in its final form in the first place stipulated that Cole would rule the world, and the lore we see presented with Vagabond in Imperial City pretty directly tells us that Cole would run a racket where he'd let cities burn if they wouldn't capitulate.  However, we know that the Seers are just an Imperial City thing, and a lot of the non-Praetoria-City nations are referred to as colonies or Protectorates (Belgium is the 'Flanders Protectorate' for instance), ergo they maintained some continuity of government or culture while nevertheless answering to Praetoria, which is also fitting given that the small Praetorian Guard would be easily capable of bringing a nation to ruin through massed firepower, but not the actual nitty-gritty of ruling.  Emperor Cole's bio states that in the aftermath of the Hamidon Wars, there was an active campaign of not just subversion, but conquest to establish a one-world government:

 

Quote

With the Devouring Earth threat ended, the world began to return to its normal state of affairs. The mass exodus around the world, combined with drifting clouds of radioactive fallout, left much of the world uninhabited and ripe for conquering. Nations fought among themselves as they began carving the world up into territories, ignoring previous borders and alliances.

 

Once again, Cole spoke to the world, but this time he spoke not to its leaders, but to its people. He told humankind that it had come too far, survived too much, grown too close to simply let its leaders throw it all away. Cole had a plan to return the Earth to the way it once was-in fact, to better than how it had been. He had tamed the beast now known as Hamidon, and Hamidon was a creature tied to the Earth itself. Hamidon could be used to heal the Earth of all its ills. The charred ruins, the polluted waters, and even the radiation zones could be cleansed. To do so, though, Cole needed all the people of Earth to trust in him to lead the way to a new brighter future.

 

It worked. People demanded that their leaders follow Cole, whether the leaders liked it or not. Some leaders or governments joined voluntarily, while others resisted and were crushed by their own citizens. The nations of the world dissolved. In a ceremony where Cole renounced his title of consul to the people of the world, the people instead gave him an even greater title: emperor.

 

Obviously, that whole thing about the 'people of the world' is propagandized, but given that

1. There was a nuclear holocaust consuming the world in radioactive fire
2. The radioactive world is haunted by actively genocidal creatures that want to kill all humans
3. The environment-cleaning technology that makes the planet habitable for human beings is being actively gatekept by Cole
4. Cole was on a deliberate campaign to conquer all world governments and stated his intent as such

Any human holdout would have to somehow have to muster the forces to resist an army of the world's most powerful metahumans, lead by the world's singular most powerful metahuman, who have the only access to vital supplies such as potable water and anti-Telluric vaccines, the world's least-damaged industrial capacity (in the form of prewar America, the first territory liberated from the Hamidon) and a behind-the-scenes quid pro quo where Hamidon is helping them do it.  Nukes can't stop them, either; Hamidon and Cole are the only two beings on the planet that can survive a direct hit from a Nuclear blast.

 

Unless there are massive pieces of the Praetoria lore hidden from us, where, say, Brazil, or Indonesia, or Australia somehow managed to hold off the combined might of Praetoria or the Hamidon by producing a super mega ray gun or something, I just don't buy it.  The deck is stacked too hard against national governments that wanted to stick it to Cole.  He holds all the cards.

 

Which is why I hammer on the Zion-from-the-Matrix thing: the only way I see an organized nation existing on the Praetorian planet independent of the Empire or of Hamidon is through technologically-advanced secrecy, like Wakanda or the Dwemer from Elder Scrolls or something.  The deck is just stacked too hard against a country attempting direct continuity from the Old World against the combined and active hostility of both Hamidon and Emperor Cole.

Edited June 30, 2021 by TwoDee
expanded 'protectorate' point; added more from sample of Cole's bio from the CoX site

[Sunsette]

Quote

 

Interrogator Kang: Hrm... Freedom Phalanx. I wonder, are these some sort of foreigners? Perhaps from the East?

 

Kang is, notably, one of the most informed praetorians who isn't high level government.

 

I'm not saying these are going to be large and powerful countries; I've been repeatedly referring to small, scattered settlements. I'm thinking villages, mostly, much as what's left of Praetoria itself ends up. Not a huge nation like Brazil, India, Australia; frankly, I suspect Monaco would be too large.

 

But while Praetoria is functionally an undisputed hegemon, too much of the information we have leaves room for doubt on their "100% of humanity" status by being either incomplete or obviously intended as unreliable narrator.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Sunsette

[TwoDee]

50 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

 

Kang is, notably, one of the most informed praetorians who isn't high level government.

 

I'm not saying these are going to be large and powerful countries; I've been repeatedly referring to small, scattered settlements. But while Praetoria is functionally an undisputed hegemon, too much of the information we have leaves room for doubt by being either incomplete or obviously intended as unreliable narrator.

 

Which is why I kind of lean on the 'Protectorate' thing.  As @Take One points out, the Goths were still 'foreigners' to the Romans even when they fought under a Roman banner, the Zulu and Indians were still 'foreigners' to the British, and the Indonesians were still 'foreigners' to the Dutch.  Praetoria isn't a nation, it's an Empire: a union of states bound up in an autocratic collective.  Some of those colonies, especially the distant ones, are going to be estranged, but they still can't exist in opposition to the autocrat without drawing military intervention.  As you say: it's a hegemon.  And the official line from Emperor Cole, the ruler of that Hegemon, is that non-Praetorians don't exist and non-Praetorian governments are not viable, so why would a Loyalist true-believer like Ray Kang refer to 'foreigners' under the presumption that they're living free, fat and happy outside the Praetorian system?  It's a catch-22.  Kang would have to be a traitor to believe the latter, ergo we must - or at least I must - assume the Protectorate/Colony thesis.

 

Furthermore, we have no indication that, for all his age and experience, Interrogator Kang has any understanding of international affairs or the scope of Praetoria whatsoever.  In point of fact, his bio implies he's never left Praetoria City or seen any part of the Empire other than his hometown:

Quote

Ray Kang was on the Praetoria Police force day one. He's seen it all, from the revelry in the aftermath of the Hamidon Wars, through the reconstruction efforts, the birth of the Seer Program, the rise of the Syndicate, and the arrival of the Destroyers and Resistance. Kang has watched his city transform from utopia to warzone and he will do whatever it takes and sacrifice whatever is needed to return it to the utopia he helped build.

 

Yes, we could interpret his lack of knowledge of the world outside the city to indicate 'actually the scope of the empire is a lie and there are still culturally-contiguous federal states out there,' but operating under the same logic we could argue that the rest of the planet is controlled by the Resistance, or space aliens, or the undead or something.  We're given no indication of Free Nations of any substance at all existing independent and without the yoke of Cole, without them also being a secret we never see directly referred to.

 

----

 

Now, to follow up and give the premise of a 'Non-Praetorian Praetorian' a fair shake, do settlements - "small, scattered settlements" to quote you - free of Cole exist?  Yes, absolutely.  We see them in the Underground as Resistance strongholds, we see them as the Last Bastion (which was, again, canonically founded by IDF deserters) and we see independent Resistance settlements outside of Praetoria City confirmed by the Tunnel Rat and Dr. Arvin arcs, where the Resistance are smuggling people outside of the City to safe and self-sustainable hiding places outside the Sonic Fences.  However, even the Resistance graffiti calls into question the idea of securing a human holdfast in Hamidon territory at anything beyond the Last Bastion's 'fortress city' level:

 

Quote

So Cole is right about some things: Look around you. This is what Hamidon and the Devouring Earth are capable of. They did this much damage even with nearly a hundred super-powered beings there to combat them. Cole might be a manipulative, scheming, ruthless bastard, but at least he's able to keep Praetoria stable and free of the kind of destruction you see here. I still hate the guy: I believe that we can have peace and prosperity without the manipulation, the coercion, the oppression, but you wouldn't be standing here if Cole hadn't beaten back Hamidon's hordes. If you want to supplant the State, at a minimum you've got to be able to protect the innocent from the kind of death and destruction Hamidon can dish out.

 

I think where we're having our disconnect is not at the idea that micro-scale semi-stable societies could exist outside Cole's yoke, because they can and canonically do.  It's more that I don't really see the character going 'ahem, I'm not Praetorian, I was born outside of the Empire' as being anything other than prideful pedantry, seeing as their entire life would have been completely dominated by the shadow of Praetoria and the threat of Emperor Cole, and Praetoria's influence felt in all things and all decisions from their youth to the present.  We don't see ex-Resistance objecting to referring to their home dimension as Praetoria even in Primal Earth arcs, because it's useful shorthand to conflate the dimension with the sweeping society that made up its vast majority and actively sought to destroy every vestige of other civilizations, and which those other civilizations existed in permanent and all-consuming existential conflict against.

 

If one really must make the distinction while dogmatically refusing to use the shorthand, the Portal Corps official designation of Praetoria is Earth Upsilon Beta 9-6, and we do see some dissenters saying things like 'I'm not a Praetorian, I'm an American!' (Source: Jack Hammer's arc), but I have difficulty envisioning a national cultural tradition continuing independently on Praetorian Earth through the Hamidon Wars and into the Pax Praetoria to the degree that one could say they belong to a real 'nation' as-distinct from a small, heavily-armed enclave pretending at being such.

Edited June 30, 2021 by TwoDee
added a comma

[GraspingVileTerror]

I just want to say that there's a very, VERY good chance that none of the original Devs spent nearly as much time as the folks in this thread trying to ensure continuity and consistency in the Praetorian narrative.

 

That is not a criticism of any of you.

 

However, I just want to remind everyone that there's a good chance that things may not align completely due to the writers' original work being incomplete or even incompatible with itself.

On top of that, Unreliable Narration is a literary tool.  Any "facts" expressed by a character within the game can be subject to additional scrutiny as potentially false.  Characters are allowed to lie in a story.

 

Public service announcement over.

Please carry on!

[Darmian]

19 minutes ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

I just want to say that there's a very, VERY good chance that none of the original Devs spent nearly as much time as the folks in this thread trying to ensure continuity and consistency in the Praetorian narrative.

 

That is not a criticism of any of you.

 

However, I just want to remind everyone that there's a good chance that things may not align completely due to the writers' original work being incomplete or even incompatible with itself.

On top of that, Unreliable Narration is a literary tool.  Any "facts" expressed by a character within the game can be subject to additional scrutiny as potentially false.  Characters are allowed to lie in a story.

 

Public service announcement over.

Please carry on!

 

While I'm 100 per cent agreeing with you, I also, having waded through many a text, have wondered "Ok OG Dev team, a little more effort here, yeah? Seriously?"   As I mentioned above, and I'll expand briefly, I've been concentrating my current efforts on Pre War/immediate start of the War, and attempting to reconcile Pre Going Rogue Praetoria - of which there's a few bits - with post Going Rogue Praetoria.  That in particular I'm stating was just, to use a phrase from home, banjaxed.  If you're going to revise/retcon then don't leave bits hanging. I've sorted a fair bit out to my own satisfaction but there's a few items that simply need text removing or rewritten to fix it.  And frankly it should be done.*

 

*If anyone now decides to jump in and say that can't be done or in fact should not be done "because that's how it was at shutdown in 2012" then take your gatekeeping nonsense elsewhere. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Darmian

[GraspingVileTerror]

Oh, yes.  I didn't explicitly say it, but I tried to imply it at the end of my post.

I absolutely adore what everyone is doing in this thread!

I want to see people delving in to other aspects of the game's lore with equal aplomb (ie:  https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/29962-flying-v-industries/ )!

I also want to encourage everyone to bear in mind that the fuzziness of City's lore is also a good thing.  It gives players more room to branch out and explore the narrative through their own unique points of view.  I like it when the story here leaves enough space for players to squeeze in their own original creations.

 

I want there to be a solid framework for all players to build their wonderful stories upon.  

I want it to be a strong framework, but also flexible.  Multiple foundations, interconnected to one another, but with plenty of space to build upward or outward from each.

I believe that's the ideal path forward for the game's sustainable longevity, as opposed to canon storylines which constrict creativity.

[Sunsette]

20 minutes ago, Darmian said:

"Ok OG Dev team, a little more effort here, yeah? Seriously?" 

 

Tangentially, I've never liked the Well of the Furies for either its original Canon purpose or its later purpose and it drives me batty every time we see Canon legacy heroes with backstory that seems like it should overlap into that period. I feel mixed about the saving throw made there in that one short story when Mender Silos says "by the way everything about the Statesman/Recluse statement isn't quite correct" for similar reasons. 

[Darmian]

1 hour ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

Oh, yes.  I didn't explicitly say it, but I tried to imply it at the end of my post.

I absolutely adore what everyone is doing in this thread!

I want to see people delving in to other aspects of the game's lore with equal aplomb (ie:  https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/29962-flying-v-industries/ )!

I also want to encourage everyone to bear in mind that the fuzziness of City's lore is also a good thing.  It gives players more room to branch out and explore the narrative through their own unique points of view.  I like it when the story here leaves enough space for players to squeeze in their own original creations.

 

I want there to be a solid framework for all players to build their wonderful stories upon.  

I want it to be a strong framework, but also flexible.  Multiple foundations, interconnected to one another, but with plenty of space to build upward or outward from each.

I believe that's the ideal path forward for the game's sustainable longevity, as opposed to canon storylines which constrict creativity.

 

I think, like in many a thing, we're on the same page here 🙂  My cavil is simply sorting out, not the fuzziness, nor even the unreliable narrator, but the frankly contradictory incomprehensibility of a few things.

[Darmian]

The lore is gloriously fuzzy in lots of ways. So many hooks that can feed into other things, and because a major part of how I enjoy playing is spending time in the AE trying to write arcs that, with a bit of a squint, could exist*, that I end up falling down rabbit holes of lore, just to try to get thing right for myself.

 

 

 

* My rule of thumb for myself when writing is simply "could this be an arc that a player missed and could later find in the ouro crystal?"  

Edited July 1, 2021 by Darmian

[Darmian]

A thought.  For a given value of "now", that being post the Magisterium incarnate trial/Number Six/Mr. G/New Praetorians, the only part of Praetoria that "safely" still exists - oh it's a laugh - has to be Night Ward. I could be wrong on that obviously, but the Seed of Hamidon and the DE are simply not there pre Cole's nuke, and there's no reason to think they would be there after.