Stone Melee on Scrappers?

[DigFruitDog]

I don't see why its not an option and i think it be cool to have.

[Nightmarer 2]

Apparently, Synapse said back in live that he was unable to balance the set to port it to scrappers, seems he had that problem on both Stone Melee and Super Strength but then Synapse pretty much screwed up everything he touched in this game so it was probably for the best that he could not "balance" the set.

 

I'd personally love the idea of porting Stone Melee to Scrappers, much more than Super Strength tbh

[Haijinx]

You'd think Stone Melee would be easier than SS since no rage.  Never really struck me as a OPd set.  For example, is it better on Brutes than War Mace?

[Galaxy Brain]

I support scrappers gettin stoned

[DigFruitDog]

Yeah i went to make one and didn't see it oh well here's hoping.

[Alchemystic]

Scrappers really need Stone Melee, Super Strength and Energy Melee, but I think it's a matter of balancing their values so they perform properly.

 

if it works out, it wive people more incentive to play them instead of Brutes.

[Haijinx]

34 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

Scrappers really need Stone Melee, Super Strength and Energy Melee, but I think it's a matter of balancing their values so they perform properly.

 

if it works out, it wive people more incentive to play them instead of Brutes.

I'm not sure why they need balanced? 

 

Other than SS and rage I mean.

 

Its not like SM and EM are the dominant brute melee go to sets.

 

I doubt they would be as good as WM which is just a straight port, isn't it?

Edited January 24, 2020 by Haijinx

[Alchemystic]

32 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I'm not sure why they need balanced? 

 

Other than SS and rage I mean.

 

Its not like SM and EM are the dominant brute melee go to sets.

 

I doubt they would be as good as WM which is just a straight port, isn't it?

I think its the way they interact with Scrapper damage modifiers as well as critical hits, they couldn't quite get them to balance out too well.

[Haijinx]

8 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

I think its the way they interact with Scrapper damage modifiers as well as critical hits, they couldn't quite get them to balance out too well.

Idk seems like a solvable problem.  Stalkers already have EM

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, DigFruitDog said:

Yeah i went to make one and didn't see it oh well here's hoping.

I went to make a War Mace or Battle Axe Stalker.  Concept is rife with executioner overtones.

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

I went to make a War Mace or Battle Axe Stalker.  Concept is rife with executioner overtones.

Seems like these two would be easy since they are so much like broad sword.

 

Of course WM would probably be the new King Stalker set ... but that's ok.

[MunkiLord]

OH MY GOD I NEED A STONE MELEE SCRAPPER MORE THAN ANYTHING IN THIS WORLD

[Nightmarer 2]

8 hours ago, Haijinx said:

You'd think Stone Melee would be easier than SS since no rage.  Never really struck me as a OPd set.  For example, is it better on Brutes than War Mace?

Single target wise, yep. AoE wise, nope.

 

[siolfir]

19 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Idk seems like a solvable problem.  Stalkers already have EM

One of the complaints about Stalker EM is that Total Focus has a drastically reduced damage critical (scale 1) and Energy Transfer doesn't get any extra damage for its critical. The original concept seemed to be that nothing would hit harder than scale 4.56 damage, even with a critical - and the hardest attack that Stalkers had the did a full damage critical was scale 2.28. So if you assume that Stone Melee would be similar, then sure - port it to Scrappers and Stalkers (Assassin's Boulder? Assassin's Stalagmite? Assassin's Mallet Thwack?) with the same nerfed critical that Total Focus gets and call it a day.

 

The problem is that you can't use that assumption because there are two more recent examples for Scrappers and both went different directions: Concentrated Strike in Kinetic Melee, which has no extra critical damage and instead recharges Power Siphon, and Crushing Uppercut in Street Justice which does critical damage equal to its level 0 base damage (and actually hits harder than Assassin's Strike from hide's scale 7 damage at combo level 3 because of that).

 

So which of the 3 precedents do you use?

[Haijinx]

14 minutes ago, siolfir said:

One of the complaints about Stalker EM is that Total Focus has a drastically reduced damage critical (scale 1) and Energy Transfer doesn't get any extra damage for its critical. The original concept seemed to be that nothing would hit harder than scale 4.56 damage, even with a critical - and the hardest attack that Stalkers had the did a full damage critical was scale 2.28. So if you assume that Stone Melee would be similar, then sure - port it to Scrappers and Stalkers (Assassin's Boulder? Assassin's Stalagmite? Assassin's Mallet Thwack?) with the same nerfed critical that Total Focus gets and call it a day.

 

The problem is that you can't use that assumption because there are two more recent examples for Scrappers and both went different directions: Concentrated Strike in Kinetic Melee, which has no extra critical damage and instead recharges Power Siphon, and Crushing Uppercut in Street Justice which does critical damage equal to its level 0 base damage (and actually hits harder than Assassin's Strike from hide's scale 7 damage at combo level 3 because of that).

 

So which of the 3 precedents do you use?

For EM? Add whirling hands instead of placate and give to scrappers, basically as is.  Since its already balanced around some imagined crit issue.

 

Maybe a slightly  renewed interest in the set will lead to some adjustments which both stalkers and scrappers can benefit from. 

 

Or just port the brute version.  SJ Crushing Uppercut has full crit and the space time compendium survived.  If a stalker rocking double build ups with double guassians auto critting CU from hide is okay, Total focus critting for scrappers is probably fine.

 

[siolfir]

22 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

For EM? Add whirling hands instead of placate and give to scrappers, basically as is.  Since its already balanced around some imagined crit issue.

 

Maybe a slightly  renewed interest in the set will lead to some adjustments which both stalkers and scrappers can benefit from. 

 

Or just port the brute version.  SJ Crushing Uppercut has full crit and the space time compendium survived.  If a stalker rocking double build ups with double guassians auto critting CU from hide is okay, Total focus critting for scrappers is probably fine.

 

For EM it would be Whirling Hands instead of Assassin's Strike and Confront instead of Placate. Stalker stun percentages were also nerfed on Energy Punch, Bone Smasher, and Energy Transfer on top of the critical issues. I really see no excuse to give Stalkers the worst possible version of everything, theoretically because they get criticals, and then give full damage criticals and higher stun percentages to Scrappers.

 

But that's enough of a diversion: I was only bringing up EM to talk about which precedent to use for Stone Melee, since that was the original precedent set.

[Haijinx]

20 minutes ago, siolfir said:

For EM it would be Whirling Hands instead of Assassin's Strike and Confront instead of Placate. Stalker stun percentages were also nerfed on Energy Punch, Bone Smasher, and Energy Transfer on top of the critical issues. I really see no excuse to give Stalkers the worst possible version of everything, theoretically because they get criticals, and then give full damage criticals and higher stun percentages to Scrappers.

 

But that's enough of a diversion: I was only bringing up EM to talk about which precedent to use for Stone Melee, since that was the original precedent set.

Yep oops.  Placate goes to Confront, and AS to Whirling.

 

And yes Stalker EM seems like weak sauce.  Which is one reason why I think Scrappers could use it almost as us with no "balance issues"

 

But yeah I already said last week they should fix the stun% for stalkers to match brutes and tankers.

 

What is the hurdle for SM?  Seismic Smash? Too much control?

[Replacement]

On 1/23/2020 at 6:21 PM, Nightmarer said:

Apparently, Synapse said back in live that he was unable to balance the set to port it to scrappers, seems he had that problem on both Stone Melee and Super Strength but then Synapse pretty much screwed up everything he touched in this game so it was probably for the best that he could not "balance" the set.

 

I'd personally love the idea of porting Stone Melee to Scrappers, much more than Super Strength tbh

I feel the need to give Synapse some credit.  They were working under different design constraints than Homecoming is now.  Particularly, I don't think they were fundamentally able to recognize and change their own design trajectory to just accept that IOs were broken, some early sets were wildly out-of-touch, and their whole game was broken in the best possible way.  But it wasn't a one-man show and I think decision-paralysis hit them hard, as a company.

 

Not porting Stone Melee felt safe at the time.  Like not buying that winning lottery ticket.

 

Anyway, that era is way past, and I think Stone Melee would be a lot easier to port than Super Strength (which I absolutely hope doesn't just get Build Up.  bleh).

 

 

[siolfir]

26 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Yep oops.  Placate goes to Confront, and AS to Whirling.

 

And yes Stalker EM seems like weak sauce.  Which is one reason why I think Scrappers could use it almost as us with no "balance issues"

 

But yeah I already said last week they should fix the stun% for stalkers to match brutes and tankers.

 

What is the hurdle for SM?  Seismic Smash? Too much control?

Damage and control, really.

 

A full damage crit on it would be scale 7.12 damage in a 1.5 second animation time. Taking into account Arcanatime that's an unslotted 259.6 DPA (scale 4.149/sec) at the Scrapper modifier, and the Scrapper ATO is going to give you that fairly often. Plus a 100% chance for a mag 4 hold.

 

For comparison's sake, Follow Up from Titan Weapons is scale 4.71218 on a critical if all of the DoT ticks hit in a 1 second animation time, for an unslotted 248.1 DPA (scale 3.966/sec) once Arcanatime is factored in. Using the Stalker modifier, your typical 1 second Assassin's Strike critical - which is most of them with Assassin's Focus - would be 234.0 DPA (scale 4.209/sec) before slotting and damage buffs.

 

Edit: Seismic Smash is actually worse than Clobber for DPA, though, so who knows?

Edited January 25, 2020 by siolfir

[Haijinx]

That could be corrected by reducing recharge time and thus scale I suppose.

 

And reducing the hold I imagine.

[Monos King]

I really want SM for scrappers. A lot. I don't even really care if its reworked or balanced or what not, I've wanted it for years and wouldn't mind a direct port from Brute/tank to scrappers.

Same with superstrength even with the rage issues.

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, siolfir said:

 

 

Edit: Seismic Smash is actually worse than Clobber for DPA, though, so who knows?

This is what has me wondering, since WM is so good, I'd just be surprised if SM was better than that.

[Nightmarer 2]

6 hours ago, Replacement said:

I feel the need to give Synapse some credit.  They were working under different design constraints than Homecoming is now.  Particularly, I don't think they were fundamentally able to recognize and change their own design trajectory to just accept that IOs were broken, some early sets were wildly out-of-touch, and their whole game was broken in the best possible way.  But it wasn't a one-man show and I think decision-paralysis hit them hard, as a company.

 

Not porting Stone Melee felt safe at the time.  Like not buying that winning lottery ticket.

 

Anyway, that era is way past, and I think Stone Melee would be a lot easier to port than Super Strength (which I absolutely hope doesn't just get Build Up.  bleh).

 

 

On the other hand, the only credit I'll give Zeleski is that, had not NCSoft pulled the plug, he'd closed the game by himself. There's not a single decision he made, a single thing he "fixed" that didn't affect my CoH gaming in a ngeative way, name it Merits, proc behavior fixes  or all his powerset revamps. Could be also that, as you say, wasn't only his choice, most his work power wise was on bringing more power pools which was in line with Positron's modus operandi of "let's just throw them a bunch of cool stuff no matter how, they'll love it" that is painfully patent on villain arcs post lvl 40.

 

 

[siolfir]

7 hours ago, Nightmarer said:

On the other hand, the only credit I'll give Zeleski is that, had not NCSoft pulled the plug, he'd closed the game by himself. There's not a single decision he made, a single thing he "fixed" that didn't affect my CoH gaming in a ngeative way, name it Merits, proc behavior fixes  or all his powerset revamps.

You didn't play Stalkers before?

[Nightmarer 2]

9 hours ago, siolfir said:

You didn't play Stalkers before?

Not really, why? he made a mistake and did something right? He'd probably "monitored" it and made it worse than it was before he laid his hands on it anywyay