Can we have Regen, please?

[Haijinx]

16 hours ago, Sarrate said:

Just pointing out that Tanker numbers would affect the following:

 

1) Resilience (9.38% -> 12.5% resistance)

2) Moment of Glory (71.3% -> 95% defense & resistance)

3) Lower regeneration cap (3,000% for Scrappers/Stalkers, 2,500% for Brutes/Tankers) - not that this matters, with 3 slotted Health, Fast Healing, Integration, and Instant Healing, you're still only at ~1560% regen

 

Those are the only powers that'd change in numbers. Due to having more health as a Tanker, you'd have stronger heals and regenerate more hp/sec, though.

Tough, weave, combat jumping, maneuvers would all increase too though.

 

Also tanker ATO adds a fair amount of resistance.

[Replacement]

Fix Regen first.

Then we talk about a Tanker version.

[Galaxy Brain]

In the other regen thread I show how strong the absorb toggle (and passive +hp) from sentinel regen is. Port that to all versions and it would be able to shrug off constant "minor" damage to a much better degree with what amounts to two layers of regen.

[Brutal Justice]

6 hours ago, Snarky said:

Still trying to wrap my head around this. What the sentence says (basically) is that all tanks are better because all Tanks have more health. Sets with powers like Dull Pain that inflate your actual Health and not just heal are even better

The only durability advantage tanks have on brutes is their larger hp base and cap.  Brutes have a pretty high hp cap as well so sets with dull pain help brutes quite a bit.  Less so with scrappers and stalkers because they cap out pretty quickly and lose some of that dull pain hp.  

 

High regen sets like willpower and bio should see the largest durability jump from brutes to tanks, out of all of the sets, do to the higher base hp of tanks.  With higher base and cap, higher heals, and higher resists regen tanks would be pretty stout.  

 

You will have active management and some loss of dps but it’s really not as much as it would seem.  If you have to click one defensive power per fight it’s only 1 attack you missed.  No different from any other set with a fast recharge heal or other utility power.  

 

The more passive sets are invulnerability, stone, shield, willpower, and super reflexes.  All the others have at least one power to click per fight, fire, dark, elec, ice, bio, rad.  This is all based on SOs since IOs can do for regen what it can do for any other set.  

 

People like the sentinel regen because it has an absorb to help with alphas.  I don’t know the numbers on that absorb but does it give a sentinel higher faux hp than a tanker has base?   If it doesn’t then tanks don’t need a changed regen, their base hp adds more survivability than that loved absorb shield.  

[Galaxy Brain]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Sinister said:

People like the sentinel regen because it has an absorb to help with alphas.  I don’t know the numbers on that absorb but does it give a sentinel higher faux hp than a tanker has base?   If it doesn’t then tanks don’t need a changed regen, their base hp adds more survivability than that loved absorb shield.  

It gives sentinels about 45% more effective mitigation than scrappers in a head on comparison.

 

Edit cus on mobile:

 

Sentinel's absorb layer works like the Blaster sustains in the best way. It constantly applies a layer of absorb roughly equal to 5% of your max hp unenhanced. So it's not like a +5% max hp, and more like "I subtract 5% of my hp worth of incoming damage per attack", assuming a regular pace of incoming dps.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Brutal Justice]

16 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It gives sentinels about 45% more effective mitigation than scrappers in a head on comparison.

 

Edit cus on mobile:

 

Sentinel's absorb layer works like the Blaster sustains in the best way. It constantly applies a layer of absorb roughly equal to 5% of your max hp unenhanced. So it's not like a +5% max hp, and more like "I subtract 5% of my hp worth of incoming damage per attack", assuming a regular pace of incoming dps.

Can you link that thread?  I missed it and would like to read it.  How quickly does that absorb refresh?

[Haijinx]

33 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It gives sentinels about 45% more effective mitigation than scrappers in a head on comparison.

 

Edit cus on mobile:

 

Sentinel's absorb layer works like the Blaster sustains in the best way. It constantly applies a layer of absorb roughly equal to 5% of your max hp unenhanced. So it's not like a +5% max hp, and more like "I subtract 5% of my hp worth of incoming damage per attack", assuming a regular pace of incoming dps.

Interesting.  Maybe this should get re-proliferated.

 

Increasing the all the time Regen set effectiveness.  

 

Would that make it too good though? Idk.  Stuff like the MOG change was made as a bandaid for the set as a whole underperforming  so there may be room to pare that back if needed. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

17 minutes ago, Mr.Sinister said:

Can you link that thread?  I missed it and would like to read it.  How quickly does that absorb refresh?

 

Further down I have a breakdown of scrapper vs sentinel regen with what I could gleam.

 

The absorb version of Instant Regen gives you a layer worth 5% your max hp every 3 seconds, that lasts 3 seconds. This can be enhanced to roughly 10%. So within 3 seconds, after resistances and defenses, you have to take more than 10% of your health in order to actually hit your real hp. Any hits to that layer you do take will be negated when it refreshes again. 

 

Given that attacks are not truly "constant", any small gap between hits will let you refresh this shield easily for hit after hit, and many smaller attacks simply wont phase you. While that layer takes hits, the smaller amount that does come through or the big hits that eat through it have time to regenerate normally.

[Sarrate]

4 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Tough, weave, combat jumping, maneuvers would all increase too though.

 

Also tanker ATO adds a fair amount of resistance.

True, but those are already available to Tankers and not changing. I was listing the only changes you'd see to Regen itself.

 

On that note, I was mistaken! There are a few additional changes:

 

Fast Healing: 25.95% --> 32.44% regen resistance

Reconstruction: 15% toxic res --> 20% toxic res

 

It's the little things that pull the set together. 😉

Edited February 4, 2020 by Sarrate

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Sarrate said:

True, but those are already available to Tankers and not changing. I was listing the only changes you'd see to Regen itself.

 

On that note, I was mistaken! There are a few additional changes:

 

Fast Healing: 25.95% --> 32.44% regen resistance

Reconstruction: 15% toxic res --> 20% toxic res

 

It's the little things that pull the set together. 😉

Yeah.  I was basically just thinking you'd need to stack every little bit of def and resist to help leverage the giant regen.  Background stuff. 

 

With tankers getting better background stuff. 

 

 

 

[Brutal Justice]

I actually don’t like that this thread was moved to suggestions just because I wanted to have a tanker discussion on the topic.  I looked at the other thread and aside from Galaxy Brain’s post it looked like a dumpster fire.  

 

The scrapper vs sent post was interesting.  It shows that sentinels have better mitigation against smaller amounts of incoming damage, but with instant healing and dull pain scrappers have higher peaks of sustain.  That’s consistent with how I view regen, peaks and valleys, not a steady line traveling on a graph.  

 

I understand why you reduced the scrapper regen in the manner you did for sustain reasons but it gives a poor representation of reality for the scrapper.  This is because the sentinel version is much more passive. 

 

 For instance, the scrapper reduces the 100dps to 51.17 dps and survives for 29.62s. The sentinel reduces it to 37.35 dps and survives for 40s.  Looks good for the sentinel.  These are the without MoG numbers.  However, in reality, when the scrapper clicks IH, according to your numbers, their regen shoots to 65hps for 90s.  100dps - res - 65hps = 25.6 dps.  With 1 click the scrapper lives for an actual 52.3 seconds.  Longer than the sentinel’s 40s.  In reality the scrapper is much more durable since the sentinel is dead before the scrapper’s IH wears off.    

 

The toggle is good at making you look more durable without actually making you so.  Similarly, with dull pain and IH running, the scrapper is immune to the 100dps for the duration.  The vacuum is showing infinite time but if the sentinel only survives for 40s then that should be the actual bench mark to compare the two.

 

Normal regen passes the practical durability test, sentinel regen passes the eye durability test.  All of this just to say, give me current regen on my tank!   

 

If you’re curious, a base regen tank would survive for 100dps - 12.5 res - 28.5hps = 59dps.  1874hp/59dps = 31.76s.  Just standing there doing nothing.

[Galaxy Brain]

Well, it very much depends on the practical test you wanna throw at it.

 

With Dull Pain -and- IH up regen has great survival assuming you dont get one shot by something. The issue is that IH has between a 14 - 27% natural uptime before outside bonuses, and DP similarly has uptime issues until you get enough rech to make it perma, which the sent version does not have a problem with given it has a passive +hp and a toggle version of IR that works a bit differently.

 

The reason why I stretched it out is that it's tough to measure them on equal footing otherwise. The scrapper version may be better in bursts once or twice a mission, but then in between those times it is worse than the Sent version. Similarly, in those scenarios where burst is needed the Sent also has a second version of reconstruction that scrappers do not have that scales with missing HP, boosted again by the passive hp boost.

 

I think what we need is a more practical way to compare the two.

[Galaxy Brain]

Actually,  we do have a point of reference with my melee set testing:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1W6KAQFJwSP44hd1MHJiPPYCw4yFetHvTomfbMQR3z2M/edit?usp=drivesdk

 

The average run time of all the melee primaries with /wp as a control was 05:51. Let's just call it 6min to be safe.

 

These tests were run on SO slotting at +0/x3 with 3 guaranteed boss spawns + a guarenteed EB spawn. At x3, the spawn sizes were between11-5 in size with various enemy rank configurations, and the map included obstacles that could mess with enemy grouping / your movement. It was common to aggro more than one group at once hitting aggro cap as well as AoE caps for all your melee powers. In short, the mission simulator gives a good baseline of your standard mission outside of X factor objectives. 

 

WP had no powers to interrupt hour primary outside the revive and T9 which were both essentially outlawed anyways to focus on the primary. The enemies are dangerous enough to SO WP that just standing there will end up killing you, but not so much that just jumping mob to mob will end you (again, to allow the primary's soft control and other bonuses to factor in). 

 

Anyways, given what we observed with a ~6 minute completion time, IH would only be available about once and probably best used for the EB spawn and surrounding enemies. DP would be available twice or more and be a good help in general, and MoG is in sorta the same boat as IH. Sent regen trades the preemptive defense of the Scrapper version for a higher passove mitigation and another reactive heal in their version of revive. I think running through these with both could give insight on the ups and downs of each. 

[MTeague]

I do love my Spines/Regen stalker.  He's scrappy as all hell and I have no hesitation in being "acting tank" (or at least, "alpha soaker") for a 2-6 man group.  And he's a STALKER, not a brute, not a tank.  But at lvl 35, he's still tricked out well enough to have 50% smashing/lethal resist, 24% melee and ranged defense, and he's ridiculously durable for someone who isn't even a tank.

 

For an actual tank though... the problem is balancing things.

 

If you regen too weakly, you can't sustain enough damage, the set becomes labeled "fail" and people shun it like a skunk sprayed it.  Except for we few contrary folks who enjoy doing "Garbage of the Month" builds just to see if we can make it work when everyone else says no.  If you regen too strongly, then your character is literally an immortal god and nothing of this world (or the next) can harm them. And then every other set becomes "fail" by comparison.  

 

I don't know how you square that circle and still keep things even enough that nothing eclipses everything else. I certainly understand why they havne't been eager to try. 

On the other hand, with IO's and Incarnates, I'm not sure "balance" even is a thing anymore lol.

[Heraclea]

Just for my own curiosity I've started levelling a Staff/Regen brute.  Wanted to try out Staff Fighting anyways.  Unlike the fire/regen scrapper this character gets some buffs from the primary.  Making a Brute will test well whether the clickiness of Regen is a big annoyance.  I probably will end up taking Tough and Weave on this one when they become available, and take Taunt as well.  Do Regen Brutes get a taunting toggle? 

 

Will be levelling on redside, because that's something I haven't even done yet.  My regen scrapper has a niche; will see if this character can find one. 

[Brutal Justice]

16 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

Do Regen Brutes get a taunting toggle? 

Integration has, or at least had, a taunt component.  I honestly haven’t played my regen brute since the aggro changes went live.  I feel like the descriptions have been removed from taunt auras since the changes, making it difficult to know if you have one or not.  I am away from the game and can’t confirm if it states in the detailed info whether or not integration taunts.  It used to at the least.  

[Galaxy Brain]

@Mr.Sinister

 

Ok, so I crunched some numbers on Scrapper vs Sentinel regen values with basic IO slotting (lvl 50 generics) alongside slotting Tough, Weave, CJ and Maneuvers for their respective defenses, oh and of course 3 slotted hasten.

 

Lets look at their Peaks, their Baseline, and their Sustain:

 

Peaks: 

For both, MoG is essentially the Mario Super-Star power up for 15 seconds, so lets ignore that. 

 

Scrapper = 32.7% SL res / 14.86% other res, 12.52% defense vs all, 178.8 HP/Sec (Recon, DP, IH, Base), and 2139.33 max HP.

Breaking Point (point where DPS overtakes mitigation) = 304 SL DPS, 241 other DPS

 

Sentinel = 30.51% SL res / 13.87% other res, 11.93% defense vs all, 89.29 HP/Sec (Recon, Second Wind, Base), and 2088.2 max HP (AT Cap).

Absorb stats = on top of this, Instant Regen gives 5 stacks of 95.94 Absorb, with ~3 seconds between stacks. This maxes out at 479.7 absorb, meaning that to actually hit the sentinel's hp you have to deal > 31.98 dps for over 15 whole seconds, or hit for > 480 damage in one hit. Effective HP/Sec = 121.26, Effective Max HP = 2567.9

Breaking Point (point where DPS overtakes mitigation) = 199 SL DPS, 160 other DPS. The absorb really gets weird here as the more time between attacks landing, the bigger this number becomes... 

 

Scrapper Peaks vs Sentinel Peaks = Scrapper wins here, with about 50% better peak mitigation outside of the build-up of absorb over time which is a big X-factor depending on the encounter....

 

 

 

Baseline:

This will be looking at the "non emergency" performance of both versions, where you are mainly focusing on other powers than your Regen powers (aside from Reconstruction as it recharges so fast). This also has no Pool Powers to look at the minimal regen performance.

 

Scrapper = 14.86% res, 54.45 HP/Sec, and 1338.62 max HP.

Breaking Point = 64 DPS

 

Sentinel = 13.87% res, 92.17 HP/Sec (Effective with Absorb), and 1637.14 max HP

Breaking Point  = 108 DPS

 

Scrapper Baseline vs Sentinel Baseline = Sentinel wins here, with 69% better mitigation when essentially played passively.

 

 

 

Sustain:

This will be looking at "average" performance of both versions given you use all your powers as often as possible over an infinite amount of time, with hasten's average recharge boost factored in as well as MoG's average up-time factored in. SL and Other resists are also averaged out for assumed mixed damage encounters.

 

Scrapper = 34.17% res, 22.91% Def, 129.52 HP/Sec, and 1966.75 max HP.

Breaking Point = 256 DPS

 

Sentinel = 31.89% res, 21.63% Def, 109.96 HP/Sec (Effective with Absorb), and 2064.12 max HP

Breaking Point  = 207 DPS

 

Scrapper Sustain vs Sentinel Sustain = Scrapper wins here by about 25%

 

 

BIG EDIT: had a typo in my calc for the Sentinel sustain which showed a wrong number.

 

So, overall on sustain the two are roughly similar with Scrapper Regen being better by a bit but requiring you juggle more powers than the Sentinel version. Passively, the Sentinel is much stronger than the Scrapper if you're just focusing on your primary. Actively, the Scrapper is a bit tougher with the sustained survival though over time I think the Sentinel has a much better self rez which is kind of an X factor, and the Absorb Shield can negate some damage entirely depending on the scenario. At their Peaks, the Scrapper pulls way ahead but requires much more management.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Megajoule]

At the risk of stating the obvious/common knowledge:  eventually we're gonna have to deal with the unfortunate fact/accident of history that, after breaking Regen, the Paragon devs put it back together and called it Willpower.  So any fixed Regen is inevitably going to end up looking a lot like/stepping on the toes of the successor/replacement set that is, essentially, sitting in its spot.

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Megajoule

[Brutal Justice]

Awesome stuff here @Galaxy Brain

 

i just want to double check some of your numbers here.   Under the Sentinel peak performance absorb stats I see some inconsistencies.  You state that the absorb stacks up to 5 times.  I asked around real quick because I didn’t see that anywhere in the description and everybody said it just refreshes the 96 absorb points, it doesn’t stack.  So instead of 32dps for 15 seconds it’s only 32dps for 3 seconds to overcome the absorb.  It would also only be an effective max hp of 2184, not 2567.  

 

The other inconsistency is between your sentinel’s peak regen and average regen.  For some reason your average regen is 138.18.  Higher than your peak of 121.26.  I would think the peak would be higher than the average.

 

I am am not trying to pick on the sentinel version, and I also don’t know all the exact numbers you’re using for your calculations, those are just the two things that stuck out.  I never have the game in front of me when posting and I play on a Mac so I don’t have a hero planner to verify numbers.  Just scribbles on a napkin.  

 

I think you’re really showing the durability of regen as opposed to    just shouting “regen sucks”.  Also  with their base durability being so close you’ve shown that sentinel regen is awesome because being at range cuts incoming dps probably in half, rather than instant regeneration being so much better than instant healing.  

[Brutal Justice]

14 hours ago, Megajoule said:

At the risk of stating the obvious/common knowledge:  eventually we're gonna have to deal with the unfortunate fact/accident of history that, after breaking Regen, the Paragon devs put it back together and called it Willpower.  So any fixed Regen is inevitably going to end up looking a lot like/stepping on the toes of the successor/replacement set that is, essentially, sitting in its spot.

 

I am always about value and variety.  I want all archetypes to be able to feel valuable in game play.  It’s really lame when one archetype or power can totally dominate the game.  IE rolling judgements or Titan weapon users.  

 

I understand it’s fun for some but the game was successful as city of heroes, not city of brutes.  It’s not healthy for the game since the true end game is alting.  You max out your brute, roll an alt, feel useless, play your brute a bit more, get bored, leave.  Combinations and variety are the heart of the game.  But you have to feel valuable on those other combos to keep the blood flowing.  

 

In regards to variety, I like that sentinel’s have some unique powerset functionality.  They are a jack of all, master of none.  Their unique sets give them value.  I don’t want them to lose that flavor.  I also don’t want scrapper regen to lose its flavor and just become passive.  It plays differently.  I like that.  Variety and value.   

 

This is is not a “nerf brute” post.  Please don’t turn it into that.  It’s really a post about not making all sets play the same, primarily focused on /regen.  

[Galaxy Brain]

@Mr.Sinister. Odd, on test last night it stacked up to a high amount 🤔

 

I'll check again when I'm home and not on mobile

 

Edit: the sustain was factoring in the heal over time of Second Wind which the peak did not account for iirc due to the Sustain being averaged over infinite time. SW has higher uptimes than any scrapper regen power so it contributes a ton before we factor in +rech from outside.

 

Next test may be looking at WP and Invuln...

Edited February 6, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Galaxy Brain]

@Mr.Sinister, good call on that number. I edited the post after finding I had a typo for the Sentinel Sustain calc that boosted it a bit higher than it was!

[0th Power]

I know this started as a "open regen for tanks" thread, which I agree would be fun, but I'd like to give my opinions on improving regen as a whole.  Disclaimer: I'm not a numbers guy or an expert, I'm going by the "feels."

 

1. I would add in more -regen resistance.  Fast healing has some, but its doesn't seem high enough.

 

2. To me, burnout is an essential power on regen due to the long recharge of MoG and IH (I'm ok with this as a click but i wouldnt be upset if it was a toggle).  If the duration of MoG was increased (slightly) or the recharge time of one or both (IH/MoG) were reduced (slightly) it would go a long way for playablity and make burnout less of a essential power.

 

3. Stalker only - I would add some endurance recovery to fast healing due to the loss of quick recovery

 

4. Self rez - function like sentinel version

 

 

Edited February 7, 2020 by 0th Power

[Galaxy Brain]

Ok, so apparently I was tired as hell the other day when I did the calcs cus I messed up the defense value. The proportions are still the same but the "breaking" DPS is wrong due to me not factoring in the exponential way defense interacts with other layers:

 

Peaks: Scrapper = 355   Sentinel = 230,   Scrapper is 54% tougher

 

Baseline: Scrapper = 64   Sentinel = 108,  Sentinel is 69% tougher

 

Sustain w MoG: Scrapper = 364   Sentinel = 285,   Scrapper is 27% tougher

Sustain no MoG: Scrapper = 227   Sentinel = 186,   Scrapper is 22% tougher

 

Just to double check, I also went back on pineapple to observe the Absorb Shield in action:

 

 

 

The power does "tick" up in intervals of ~96 before capping at a sustained ~480, at least on Pineapple.... stealth patch?

 

 

Anywho, for sake of comparison I converted all the Sentinel values into Scrapper numbers to create a "Scrapinel" 

 

 

Peaks:  Scrapinel = 259,   Scrapper is 37% tougher

 

Baseline: Scrapinel = 119,  Scrapinel is 85% tougher

 

Sustain w MoG: Scrapinel = 329,   Scrapper is 10% tougher

Sustain no MoG: Scrapinel = 208,   Scrapper is 9% tougher

 

 

The Scrapinel is about ~12% tougher than the Sentinel, and ~15% closer of a gap compared to Sent vs Scrap. 

 

The baseline performance being much, much better is interesting. This allows you to much more passively attack and not worry about incoming DPS to a point, and with ~533 max absorb and ~107 absorb per tick, there is probably a lot of stuff you could shrug off!

 

I am unsure what is better here honestly, the Sustains of each are within 10% of each other, but the Baseline performance is just way better with the Scrapinel than the Peak is better on the Scrapper (before recharge, but that also boosts Second Wind and the shared clicks that the Scrapinel has!)

 

 

Lets look at some other sets

 

Scrapper Invulnerability:

Baseline = 1 target for Invincibility, no pool powers / clicks

Baseline S/L: 31

Baseline Non Psy: 19

Baseline Avg: 25

 

Dull Pain Active = Full Invincibility saturation, pool powers (Tough, Weave, CJ, Manuevers)

Dull Pain Active S/L:  204

Dull Pain Active Non Psy:  77

Dull Pain Avg:  140.5

 

Sustain = Use clicks as often as possible with Hasten + "Infinite time"

Sustain S/L : 293

Sustain Non Psy : 111

Sustain Avg : 202

 

 

 

Scrapper Willpower:

Baseline = 1 target for RttC, no pool powers / clicks. RttC was given 3 slots of -ToHit for giggles, this only effects melee but that also effects RttC regen so.....

Baseline S/L/Psy: 89, Psy is essentially the same values as S/L so I'm, combining them

Baseline Other: 88

Baseline Avg: 88.5

 

Peak = Full RttC saturation, pool powers (Tough, Weave, CJ, Manuevers), also show SoW active since it is a decent T9?

Peak S/L:  289

Peak Psy:  281

Peak Other:  255

Peak Avg:  275

 

Peak S/L SoW:  538

Peak Psy SoW:  361

Peak Other SoW:  304

Peak Avg SoW:  401

 

Sustain = Use clicks as often as possible with Hasten + "Infinite time". In this case, just SoW averaged to 40% uptime

Sustain S/L : 388

Sustain Psy : 309

Sustain Other : 272

Sustain Avg : 323

 

 

 

Using the averages with t9's (except invuln cus.... yeah) Regen actually doesn't seem too bad:

 

	Invuln	Willpower	Regen	Scrapinel Regen
Baseline (Avg)	25	88.5	64	119
Peak (Avg)	140.5	401	355	259
Sustain (Avg)	202	323	364	329

 

No SoW / MoG :

	Invuln	Willpower	Regen	Scrapinel Regen
Peak	104.5	275	355	259
Sustain	202	275	227	208

 

 

 

 

S/L:

	Invuln	Willpower	Regen	Scrapinel Regen
Baseline (S/L)	31	89	64	119
Peak (S/L)	204	538	355	259
Sustain (S/L)	293	388	364	329

 

 

No SoW / MoG :

	Invuln	Willpower	Regen	Scrapinel Regen
Peak	204	289	355	259
Sustain	293	289	227	208

 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Galaxy Brain]

So back on topic though... yeah, if the numbers got bumped up the proportions would probably still be about the same as above for Regen being good on tanks. It just requires much more activity, which could be good or bad.