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Sentinel DPS sheet

Underfyre

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Underfyre

Underfyre

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Posted (edited)

Welcome to the Sentinel DPS Spreadsheet v2.7, Issue 28, Page 1. Not a ton of changes to Sentinels, so I wasn't in a big rush to make edits. That and I felt slighted by the admin team when they unpinned the Collab Project without even bringing it up to one of its primary contributors. Anyway, the change to Fire Blast > Flares increased the "baseline" dps by 2, but no other rotation used Flares so they were unchanged. However, Energy Blast > Power Burst was a central power, so now Energy Blast is the absolute worst set you can play again. I guess everyone needs a set to trash on just like everyone needs an Archetype to trash on. Why not give the people an easy target.

 

Rack and Stack is updated from the last sheet. Since Energy Blast plummeted back to the bottom, everyone that was below has shifted up in accordance, and Energy has taken its rightful place at the bottom.

 

Anyway, have fun.

 

How to use this sheet: Make a copy on your Google Drive, drop in your own enhancement values and procs, twist all the knobs you want and see what yields an increase in damage.  Will this set work better with this power or that power? Find out. Is it worth it to make your enhancements +5? Find out.

 

Note: Don't bother trying to export it to Excel, Excel won't be able to handle much of anything correctly because of the types of formulas used and the use of checkboxes don't play well.

 

Version 2.7 up.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BwXJldFN8yrGbn4cDs8_P12lc2BO8QaI1AOflk3oFH0/edit?usp=sharing

 

Patch Notes:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Sheet Tutorial:

 

First things first, choose your sets. If you use Dual Pistols, the ammo type drop down will populate with the different ammo types.

Next, update your target. I usually use Global Average at +3 because of Incarnate level shift. Set it to +4 if you plan on exemping down.

Next, select your Incarnates and put in your set bonuses. You can get these out of Mids if you're familiar enough with your sets, or if you have the character built in game already, it's easier to get them from there.

 

You can also choose whether Opportunity is active, and whether it's Offense mode or not. You can also choose your latency, but 0.282s is my observed average.

 

image.thumb.png.a54554d354f91b2911265663904d2573.png

 

Next you're going to have to fill in the data chunks for your abilities. There's no particularly fast way to do this.

 

image.thumb.png.d3b4a0108469d0b1d9f87b139b7ba827.png

 

Finally you can start putting in your rotation. Because of how Opportunity is calced in the sheet, it's best if you fill in your full rotation at least twice, especially since this will reveal whether any pauses are needed. You can select whether you're doing Multi-Target or single Target from the drop down, and you can enable whether defense debuffs are active or not.

 

image.thumb.png.c74cc3e038f87c982e6e83b02126b0cd.png

Edited by Underfyre
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Sentinel DPS Spreadsheet

Sentinel Builds, fifth post down

oldskool

oldskool

Posted
Posted (edited)

There probably isn't enough general interest in the Sentinel given all of the poo-pooing of the AT since its release.  There are several folks that have shelved their Sentinels and moved on to greener pastures out of disappointment.  

 

Might be better to just post it and let feedback come as it does.  I seriously doubt you'll find "experts" in their preferred sets unless all you really want is a deluge of people talking about Fire Blast. 😉 

 

Edit 1: FWIW to anyone else, I've read it and it has some good things that can be helpful for a lot of folks.  More eyes on it can help refine it.

 

Edit 2: Can you change "New" to "Need" in the title?

 

 

Edited by oldskool
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Underfyre

Underfyre

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Posted (edited)

Added Hybrid Assault Radial and Core. Core assumes 4 stacks. I confirmed the numbers of Radial Assault on Dual Pistols. According to the thread, there are some abilities that don't fall exactly in line, so there's a chance that numbers may be wrong and will only be exposed through testing.

 

Based off of info from this post: 

 It's apparently a damage loss to take Core over Radial, assuming you're averaging 4 stacks.

Edited by underfyre

Sentinel DPS Spreadsheet

Sentinel Builds, fifth post down

  • 2 weeks later
oldskool

oldskool

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 3/4/2020 at 5:28 PM, Jotun said:

So of i am reading this right electrical blast has the lowest dps of 580?

Expand  

That's the AoE number from the Rack and Stack cell.
 

Something from the very first cell "Rack and Stack's current rankings should not be taken seriously by any means". 

 

Keep in mind, Thunderous Blast has a fairly long animation time (so does Full Auto).  Short Circuit also has a fairly long animation time and it is also PBAoE (which may or may not complicate things).  Ball Lightening is the fastest animating option in the set and its decent. 

This might inform someone that perhaps they may wish to consider taking an Epic/Patron AoE option like Psychic Shockwave (or whatever floats someone's boat) to pad out gaps.  This ignores Short Circuit's other functionality as well as its ability to accept 5 different procs if you wanted to add them. 

Edited by oldskool
nihilii

nihilii

Posted
Posted

On the topic of Elec's ST DPS, I think it might actually be the top Sentinel primary for that purpose. Simply because a procced out /psi epic is such a cornerstone of Sentinel performance.

I've had promising results using an attack chain of Zapping Bolt -> Dominate -> Mind Probe -> Zapping Bolt -> Tesla Cage, with Voltaic Sentinel adding its own shots.

 

How promising? Well, at the same level of incarnates and against Rikti Pylons, my Elec/Inv is dealing roughly the same DPS as my Fire/Bio. That's invul "does-nothing-for-your-offense" versus bio "hey-let's-give-you-a-permanent-25%-damage-boost-and-then-let's-throw-more-toxic-damage-on-top".


Zapping Bolt is basically Blaze without the DoT, and Tesla Cage is a proper T4 with a slightly long animation balanced by the ability to take all those juicy damage procs from hold sets (of course, the purple one still goes in Dominate).

 

The game changer in this setup is Voltaic Sentinel. Once you use a powexec_location self macro, it's an easy 3s cast for about a dozen charged bolts. Hard to beat that kind of DPA.

But, of course, this is also the caveat. While this gives you good DPS in any situation where you're only fighting one tough target, you can't control which enemy VS will attack if you're fighting several enemies.

 

For AoEs, BL -> TB -> BL -> SC does a good job at clearing stuff. Although it's interesting to see plain Fireball -> Inferno -> Fireball from Fire tends to perform better, at least for me. With TB you need to either herd or have a mob placed at the exact center of everything (and click on it fast), while with Inferno you're the center, no aim required.

oldskool

oldskool

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 3/4/2020 at 8:14 PM, nihilii said:

procced out /psi epic

Expand  

Which kinda makes me sad that abusing procs in Dominate and taking Mind Probe are such huge swings in DPS.  I guess its not that much different from just stuffing the primary powers with procs, but something about relying on Epics as cornerstones just rubs me the wrong way.  Then again, I also like to play in content low enough that I lose those powers.  So there is that.  

I have been toying around with some more sets (Fire/Fire/Fire, Ice/Ice/Ice, Elec/Energy, AR/SR, etc.), and I've been having fun with that discovery.  

Lightning Bolt - Zapping - Tesla isn't horrible if you want to bypass the Epics.  

For AR, Disorienting Shot - Slug - Disorienting Shot - Burst with multiple procs has been enlightening.  SR's Quickness being a driver to get me to 185% global recharge before the generic Ageless recharge bonus.  Incinerator still works depending on how you want to slot things, but not using it has been a slight gain. 

 

  On 3/4/2020 at 8:14 PM, nihilii said:

For AoEs, BL -> TB -> BL -> SC does a good job at clearing stuff

Expand  

I probably should have included that sustained AoE DPS is a bit silly in general when any of the Sentinels can clear things just fine.  Especially after using Aim, but still serviceable even for Dual Pistols.  Though sometimes I feel that opinion is held between just you and I. LOL

Edited by oldskool
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BrandX

BrandX

Posted
Posted

I got 213 ST DPS with a DP/NIN, no Incarnate abilities used (this includes no Alpha).  Didn't think to use any epics in the build though.  Not sure if the redraw would hurt the DPS, but I put the Purple Hold Proc in Suppressive Fire.  DW > SF > *slight pause (.2 sec I believe it was)* ES > Repeat.

nihilii

nihilii

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 3/4/2020 at 11:54 PM, oldskool said:

Which kinda makes me sad that abusing procs in Dominate and taking Mind Probe are such huge swings in DPS.  I guess its not that much different from just stuffing the primary powers with procs, but something about relying on Epics as cornerstones just rubs me the wrong way.

Expand  

I hear you on that one. Even though I grew to enjoy it personally, there's definitely a design flaw in having some of our best attacks be these specific powers. Not to mention if PPM gets nerfed at some point (which Cap Powerhouse has hinted at), Sentinels will feel the hit more than other ATs.

 

ST epic attacks are weird on any AT. Either they're worst than your primary/secondary options so why bother, or they're better and they overshadow those native options. AoEs have a niche in that it's rare to have a gapless AoE rotation (and/or some sets may lack the specific kind of TAoE/PBAoE/cone/radius you want), but ST attacks are always going to fall in an useless/overpowered binary choice IMHO.

 

  On 3/4/2020 at 11:54 PM, oldskool said:

Lightning Bolt - Zapping - Tesla isn't horrible if you want to bypass the Epics.

Expand  

Indeed. Zapping - Tesla - Zapping - Lightning Bolt - Charged Bolts is also a good alternative. For my own /psi abuse build, I swap to Zap - Tesla - Zap - Charged Bolts - Ball Lightning while exemplaring. Basically getting as much Zapping with Apoc and Glad procs as possible.

 

  On 3/4/2020 at 11:54 PM, oldskool said:

Though sometimes I feel that opinion is held between just you and I. LOL

Expand  

Well, I have one ingame friend who shares the opinion... Hehe. Nothing like timing those Opportunities up one after another, coupled with various -res procs. My buddy's current pet project is a Psy/SR, with which he whams AVs for 4 digit damage in our duos. Psychic Blast gets a ranged Total Focus essentially, damn if that's not fun.

That is to say, coming back to AoEs... Even on Psychic Blast and its terrible AoEs, you can just skip these, leverage Aim + Psychic Wail, grab Psy Shockwave, and end up with something decent.

Edited by nihilii
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oldskool

oldskool

Posted
Posted
  On 3/5/2020 at 10:39 AM, nihilii said:

Well, I have one ingame friend who shares the opinion... Hehe. Nothing like timing those Opportunities up one after another, coupled with various -res procs. My buddy's current pet project is a Psy/SR, with which he whams AVs for 4 digit damage in our duos. Psychic Blast gets a ranged Total Focus essentially, damn if that's not fun.


That is to say, coming back to AoEs... Even on Psychic Blast and its terrible AoEs, you can just skip these, leverage Aim + Psychic Wail, grab Psy Shockwave, and end up with something decent.

Expand  

Not a huge shock with Psy.  Before I wrote the write-up in the collaboration thread Psy/SR was one of the first experiments.  Psy/Nin was next.  Currently there is a Psy/WP in my roster as the final evolution of that concept. 

Will Dom - Scramble Thoughts - Will Dom is available to anyone that wants to push recharge which SR is great at.  Add on Dominate and Mind Probe and it gets really strong.  Even TK Blast with procs is nothing to sneeze at. 

Psychic Blast and Psychic Mastery are like a match made in heaven.  Its one of the few primary set + epic set that I'd really recommend as a deep dive.  I've also done the comparison of the Sentinel with this powers vs a ranged only psy-Fortunata.  The Sentinel is really quite good.  Enough to make the choice a blurry pick due to all of the other goodies that Widows have.  My current Fort runs a mix of melee and psi.  This allowed my head canon to free up my concept to revisit a Psi Blast Sentinel. 

At the moment, I'm aiming to play around with Psionic Strike because I want to explore it a bit more.  On paper its kind of a hot mess, but I want to give it another shot.  Plus, I like the look of it.

While I do cringe at pushing procs hard on holds + a melee, I do like to dabble into the Epics as of late.  My two natural origin weapon based concepts (DP/SR, and AR/SR) are a bit more free to push some procs in Caltrops than my DP/Nin currently can.  My elemental concepts (Fire, Ice and Electric) all take the AoE Immobilize.  That's especially nice for Fire/Fire as I'm using both Burn and Rain of Fire with Fireball spam as necessary. 

Anyway, I don't want to side track further. Though this does seem like a fine thread to discuss general discovery of the Sentinel as it is all about making effective characters at its core.  Why else would anyone care to make a spreadsheet if it wasn't to try and discover ideal power combinations?

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nihilii

nihilii

Posted
Posted
  On 3/5/2020 at 12:47 PM, oldskool said:

Will Dom - Scramble Thoughts - Will Dom is available to anyone that wants to push recharge which SR is great at.  Add on Dominate and Mind Probe and it gets really strong.

Expand  

Hear, hear. Basically my thought after seeing my friend's character. WD -> Scramble -> WD -> Dom -> MP ought to be a competitive attack chain, following the same model of a tier3 blast with Apoc and Glad used as often as possible with the other powers slapped in between. It's great to have the epic compliment the primary so well both thematically and mechanically. Got my baby Psy/Dark (thanks 😉 ) leveling slowly in Praetoria hoping to get there one day.

(Shoot... Talking about all of this makes me want to take a look at Ice Blast, which I dismissed so far. BIB -> BFR -> BIB -> Dom -> MP ought to be pretty good. Although it requires more recharge.)

oldskool

oldskool

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 3/5/2020 at 3:25 PM, nihilii said:

(Shoot... Talking about all of this makes me want to take a look at Ice Blast, which I dismissed so far. BIB -> BFR -> BIB -> Dom -> MP ought to be pretty good. Although it requires more recharge.)

Expand  

I think you should!! 

Those attacks can take on multiple categories so they have proc options.  My Ice/Ice/Ice just runs the core of Chilling/BiB/BFR and its not horrible. 

 

(Edit: P.S., Also curious to know how that Psy/Dark turns out.  Lots of Stuns in there plus Stealth should feel super safe for play along side the heavy hitters in the primary.  It was a combo I was very close to rolling myself.)

Edited by oldskool
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Underfyre

Underfyre

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Posted (edited)
  On 3/4/2020 at 5:28 PM, Jotun said:

So of i am reading this right electrical blast has the lowest dps of 580?

Expand  

So yeah, what Oldskool said. Take the rack and stack with a grain of salt. However, I do have an Epic'd out Electric/Energy Sent, but I never transfered it's sets into the sheet. Doing that, setting it to just Energy Aura (20% recharge bonus only) puts it to more of a middling set at 930 dps with incarnates. Not awful, just not ...Water/Bio aoe numbers.

 

If anyone is curious I'm actively adding in Epic pools with a drop down option for each one that accounts for all the fun stuff automatically. It works great for the hero epic setup of TAOE/CONE->ST->ST->T/PAOE-> some other thing as the 5th. Adding in Patrons is going to throw things for a whirl since they only loosely follow that scheme. Really it's just Mu Mastery that's ruining everything.

 

I also currently have no desire on working out the dps of a patron pet. Maybe someone else already did.

Edited by underfyre

Sentinel DPS Spreadsheet

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Zeraphia

Zeraphia

Posted
Posted

I mean this is a lot of work of course but... I have to seriously question a lot of these numbers and I have to point out the noticeable disparities in advantage that specific sets are given, and this data is super misleading. Dual Pistols and Archery are just flat out not #1 and #2 in ST DPS, and the way you've ranked it would have people believe that to be so. In the rankings that Kaeladin did, he did not include epic pool muddlings into the DPS ranking or procs because it can get extremely murky. You can't just use Dominate and Mind Probe for Dual Pistols to make it #1 while giving Fire Blast a rotation with two different sets of Flares...

 

Am I missing something? This just seems more like "I want these sets to be high up because I like them thematically over another set" but it seems to not really accurately portray how much the sets actually produce.

Underfyre

Underfyre

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Well, the welcome page BOLDLY says to take rankings with a grain of salt. Some sets I have built, others I have not. The presence of Epic pools in the #1 set is absolutely muddling its number. At this point I'm considering removing it, or at least hiding it and making people find it. You know you can make a copy of this and update the numbers to fit your sets right? The bar is set with DP/DA/Psi. Go ahead and beat it.

 

Procs are an averaged number and they will play a role in the viability of one power against another. If a proc is doing 71.75 damage 56% of the time, it's going to average 40.18 damage average of a long enough time span. That's how these kinds of sheets work. Now look at Abyssal Gaze. It does 112 damage base. Stacked with procs it will do 541 damage. Left at the devices of just enhancements it wouldn't even do half of that. Procs play a vital role in the damage output of some sets. Regardless of this, Dark is still doing middling damage even after I build it up. I'm sure I could give it Dominate and pad its ST damage, but it's already weak AOE damage would suffer even more so it'd stay in the middle anyway. Some sets aren't destined to sit on top.

 

One thing that is not considered is mob resistance. A set like Dual Pistols may suffer a bit losing up to 25% of its damage to Lethal resistance. But as it is, everything in the sheet is on an even playing field, even if the game is not.

 

 

Sentinel DPS Spreadsheet

Sentinel Builds, fifth post down

SwitchFade

SwitchFade

Posted
Posted

I'm sorry, but including procs, epics and attack rotations that are irrespective of standardized builds or enhances renders all the data invalid.

 

If you want to compare these sets you would have to remove variables that skew data so badly that it is uncorrectable 

 

Randomness alone corrupts the data, not to mention outside factors, bias and preference.

 

Sorry, but this is beyond "take with a grain of salt" and should carry a disclaimer that "dataset used for reference is invalid"

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Frostweaver

Frostweaver

Posted
Posted

You know, except that procs, epics, and attack rotations are an important part of the game. And direct determiners of actual in-game performance rather than some magical, nonexistent, even keel model.

And you wonder why economists are always wrong.

oldskool

oldskool

Posted
Posted
  On 6/16/2020 at 7:43 AM, Frostweaver said:

As much as I appreciate the VERY rough sheet, it still makes me want to beg @oldskool for a Psi/regen build sans fly 🙂

Expand  

The "sans fly" is kinda funny.  I don't run with any travel powers in my Sentinel builds at the moment.  I don't count Combat Jumping.  I generally do not play with Hover/Fly outside of my Controllers.  
 

My Blasters do not hover blast, period.  My Defender can jump right into the thick of things too.  This is all from main play of Scrappers/Brutes back from live.  

I tinkered with Psi/Regen real quick though.  I went for Psi Mastery to include Link Minds as well as all of the other damage goodies.  Link Minds allowed me to hit 30% melee, 31% Energy/Negative, 24% Smashing/Lethal, and 25% Ranged.  The others... around 16-18.  Can't have it all.  Recharge landed around 155%, not enough for me with Psychic Blast, but Ageless would help.  Hit points nearly capped and a proc or two in every single-target attack.  

It reminded me why I prefer Super Reflexes/Energy Aura/Electrical Armor.  That 20% from those sets is a big deal to me.  Still, a Psi/Regen could be pretty good.  Probably not great, but pretty good.  Bio Armor is a lot better in my opinion but that pigpen effect may not be what you want. 

Frostweaver

Frostweaver

Posted
Posted
  On 6/16/2020 at 3:38 PM, oldskool said:

The "sans fly" is kinda funny.  I don't run with any travel powers in my Sentinel builds at the moment.  I don't count Combat Jumping.  I generally do not play with Hover/Fly outside of my Controllers.  
 

My Blasters do not hover blast, period.  My Defender can jump right into the thick of things too.  This is all from main play of Scrappers/Brutes back from live.  

I tinkered with Psi/Regen real quick though.  I went for Psi Mastery to include Link Minds as well as all of the other damage goodies.  Link Minds allowed me to hit 30% melee, 31% Energy/Negative, 24% Smashing/Lethal, and 25% Ranged.  The others... around 16-18.  Can't have it all.  Recharge landed around 155%, not enough for me with Psychic Blast, but Ageless would help.  Hit points nearly capped and a proc or two in every single-target attack.  

It reminded me why I prefer Super Reflexes/Energy Aura/Electrical Armor.  That 20% from those sets is a big deal to me.  Still, a Psi/Regen could be pretty good.  Probably not great, but pretty good.  Bio Armor is a lot better in my opinion but that pigpen effect may not be what you want. 

Expand  

 

Well, I have a level 38 'concept' build that I am struggling with, psi/regen, named "Gorgeous", who is a rotting hulk created as one of his first bodies by Doc Vahzilok, and eventually replaced as a holder for a random brain.

The Random Brain actually turned out to be gifted much like the clock king, so, since the body was mostly unkillable and the brain was clock kinglike, I settled (almost a year ago) On a Psi-regen sentinel and have revisited it every couple of months to try to make it work.

the...incredible slowness of Psi almost always makes me throw up my hands in despair... especially when I managed to kill a mob with TK blast while waiting for Psionic strike to actually travel to the target.

 

Well, this is the crap I have so far for a build... is it recoverable or should I just give it up and rebuild as a bio?

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Underfyre

Underfyre

Posted
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Posted
  On 6/16/2020 at 1:48 PM, SwitchFade said:

I'm sorry, but including procs, epics and attack rotations that are irrespective of standardized builds or enhances renders all the data invalid.

 

If you want to compare these sets you would have to remove variables that skew data so badly that it is uncorrectable 

 

Randomness alone corrupts the data, not to mention outside factors, bias and preference.

 

Sorry, but this is beyond "take with a grain of salt" and should carry a disclaimer that "dataset used for reference is invalid"

Expand  

1) Please elaborate on "standardized builds." I have never once seen two people build the same exact way. Pretending that Epic attacks aren't available when comparing between builds is going to skew data more than making them available. I've already said why procs should be present. As for attack chains, a lot of attack chains would rather pause for 0.2 seconds for an ability to refresh than just keep spamming whatever is up. That's a reasonable argument. I, however, don't have the spreadsheet know-how to implement something like that.

 

2-3) You know that everything about the game is based on random numbers, right? You have between a 5% and 95% chance to hit a mob and a dice is rolled for every. single. attack. A spreadsheet like this operates between now and infinity. If I have a 95% chance to hit with an ability doing 100 damage, and you do a parse of 100 attacks, you will more than likely come up with a number around 9500. Will it be exactly 9500? Probably not. But it will be really close. Extend that to 1000 attacks, you'll probably edge closer to 95000.

 

4) The only bias in this sheet is the fact that it's for Sentinels only. There were times when I really wanted to see if modeling something would give me a result that would beat Fire Blast, such as factoring in the -res debuffs from sonic just to find out that that ain't it. Actually, one bias I'm working on is that I have the up-time of Hybrid Assault Core factored into its effect, where I don't have it factored into the Radial, which technically it would be doing half of its damage since it's up for half the time (up 120 seconds, down 120 seconds). It's a "quick" fix that I have to apply to every sheet, which makes nothing quick, but I'll probably be doing it soon.

 

At the end of the day, if you don't like it, don't use it. 

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