Poison questions

[The_Warpact]

So what's up with poison? I have not really heard positive things about it but, the debuff numbers look good on Mids, what am I missing?

[Darkir]

You are missing that both /cold and /dark can achieve double stacking sleet/tar patch in order to get -60% res. With /cold also being able to apply heat loss for even more and a proccing infrigidate with an Achilles proc. Add to this that /dark and /cold have a lot of other tools that they bring to the table, shields, AOE Rez, fear, stun, hold, fluffy, etc. Then Poison cannot self heal or self buff and /dark can. It's just a really lackluster set, especially on a corruptor (but on a defender too).

Edited February 20, 2020 by Darkir

[Frosticus]

I still maintain that it is the best debuff set for fast moving, run and gun teams, by a noticeable amount. But it isn't so much better that it outweighs the other things that a set like cold brings. Dark is slow as molasses at getting out powers, but may be the best set for keeping crappy teams standing, but is about on par with traps in a fast moving environment. 

 

Poison is a tough set to solo with, but some pairings can do well. It shines well for some controllers such as my plant/poison.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Frosticus

[Vea]

I like poison for the fact you don't need to take many of the powers. You could literally get away with taking Envenom, Weaken and Venomous Gas, this gives you a lot of freedom for builds. From the top of my head the -res powers are greater than that of cold and dark before self stacking, self stacking however requires significant investment.

 

There is no -regen in poison which sucks. There is no self heal, the heal itself also has throws a projectile so there is a delay to healing. There is also no buffs for teammates, if your teammates are rubbish then -res doesn't offer much (Cold had shield, Dark has a pretty intense heal and both have a +def/res aura)

 

I went for poison/beam defender for some -regen and an additional -res attack.

 

It's definitely not a bad set and would choose it over some other sets, I do think it requires a more aggressive play style.

 

I do wish Poison Trap was the same as the traps version of Poison Gas Trap, I also think the Mastermind version of Venomous Gas (Noxious Gas) would be better as it makes it more team orientated and removes the need for a poison corr/defender to play in melee distance.

[The_Warpact]

I should have clarified, I know other sets are greater in some way with shields, heals, etc.

I meant as a debuff set, I realize the lack of a   regen debuff sucks for av/gm take downs.

The toon would be on a team paired with melee centric toons, I figured with a fast moving team this set would be pretty good for the debuffs.

Put it with an aggressive attack primary, leadership, fighting, medicine, speed pools, and Scorpion shield and it could be a fast moving toon with s/l/r def cap.

[Vea]

Envenomed Daggers can help with -regen, so it's not a huge issue.

 

Envenom is a weird AoE as well and not that large, you will probably spend more time spitting envenom than your primary when mob clearing. The debuff isn't 100% of its strength for the AoE element, so you will need to cast it on every hard target in a mob for better effectiveness. For instance in an Apex I will cast Envenom on Giant Warwalkers, then Weaken, and if there are any bosses around i'll target them for Envenom.  

 

Venomous gas is a nice way to debuff quickly, however it turns off when mezz'd so clarion or other forms of protection is need for consistency. 

 

I'm not sure what else you want to know? Unless this is a matter of "I don't know what I don't know"

Edited February 20, 2020 by Vea

[Frosticus]

6 hours ago, Vea said:

I do wish Poison Trap was the same as the traps version of Poison Gas Trap, I also think the Mastermind version of Venomous Gas (Noxious Gas) would be better as it makes it more team orientated and removes the need for a poison corr/defender to play in melee distance.

I used to feel the same and have even made the same statement. That was prior to really getting in to how poison excels. 

Traps version is unbelievably slow. Poison version has a very fast cast time. In addition to that, poison version takes pbaoe damage sets. This is pretty advantageous as it gives a reliable way to get the fury of the gladiator -res proc out, which most corrs/defs/trollers have limited access to. 

 

Which on that note, the power procs unbelievably well. I've posted about it in the past. It is one of the best proc powers in the game.

So on a quick team poison trap delivers a quick little aoe hold, a large amount of aoe damage and a reliable source of -res proc. Plus you already in close to maximize venomous gas, which I personally prefer over the MM version, but ymmv. 

 

I would however suggest playing the build as a defender rather than a corr. Both the defender ATO's fit nicely with things poison lacks. Not a huge amount, but a bit. Plus the defender values are noticeably higher for the -res powers. 

[The_Warpact]

2 hours ago, Frosticus said:

I used to feel the same and have even made the same statement. That was prior to really getting in to how poison excels. 

Traps version is unbelievably slow. Poison version has a very fast cast time. In addition to that, poison version takes pbaoe damage sets. This is pretty advantageous as it gives a reliable way to get the fury of the gladiator -res proc out, which most corrs/defs/trollers have limited access to. 

 

Which on that note, the power procs unbelievably well. I've posted about it in the past. It is one of the best proc powers in the game.

So on a quick team poison trap delivers a quick little aoe hold, a large amount of aoe damage and a reliable source of -res proc. Plus you already in close to maximize venomous gas, which I personally prefer over the MM version, but ymmv. 

 

I would however suggest playing the build as a defender rather than a corr. Both the defender ATO's fit nicely with things poison lacks. Not a huge amount, but a bit. Plus the defender values are noticeably higher for the -res powers. 

I was going with corr for the greater damage  the build is a DP/Psn with the toon themed around the Joker.

 

I would like to thank everyone for the wealth of information.

[Menelruin]

Is Water/Poison any good?

[Darkir]

1 hour ago, Menelruin said:

Is Water/Poison any good?

I would say it is the best pairing with poison due to having good AoE and a self heal. I still think there are better options overall than poison on a corruptor (/dark or /cold), but if you want to play poison I'd play it on a defender because you have much stronger debuffs and an easier time reaching the softcap. You also don't have any good scourging powers in /poison, so I'd say its just better overall on a defender. 

 

Edit: that being said, if you have a thematic toon you want to make with poison, by all means do it. 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Darkir

[Psyonico]

Envenom has -regen, not sure why everyone keeps missing that.

 

Poison's biggest problems are the small radius on its powers and the fact that you need to be in melee range.  If the radius on Envenom/Weaken was extended (not likely to happen) you'd have a very strong set.

[Frosticus]

4 hours ago, Psyonico said:

Envenom has -regen, not sure why everyone keeps missing that.

not sure if they are missing it or just figure the low value isnt worth mentioning. 

 

the -special of weaken is pretty cool though. and unique along with benumb in cold. Though weaken is spammable 

[Nemu]

You guys are missing the real reason to make a poison anything...

 

bind a key to /powexecname poison trap$$em dance

 

Works best when listening to trap music.

[kiramon]

On 2/20/2020 at 6:06 PM, Darkir said:

I would say it is the best pairing with poison due to having good AoE and a self heal. I still think there are better options overall than poison on a corruptor (/dark or /cold), but if you want to play poison I'd play it on a defender because you have much stronger debuffs and an easier time reaching the softcap. You also don't have any good scourging powers in /poison, so I'd say its just better overall on a defender. 

 

Edit: that being said, if you have a thematic toon you want to make with poison, by all means do it. 

The water poison build darkir made for me on these forums is pretty fun even on a corrupter. I pretty much avoid defenders as a whole, so I just sort of accept the downfalls of corrupter (in favor of scourge just feeling more fun to see)... that being said, it’s primarily water that makes it fun with poison literally contributing poison gas... so it could be any secondary  really lol. 

[Hjarki]

On 2/20/2020 at 12:22 PM, Frosticus said:

Which on that note, the power procs unbelievably well. I've posted about it in the past. It is one of the best proc powers in the game.

I wouldn't go that far. From my perspective:

1. It has a relatively low (~27% or so) chance to proc any given proc.
2. It has a relatively small radius for both triggering and damage (10 yards?).
3. For some inexplicable reason, it can't slot purple sets.
4. The power itself doesn't do much damage.

On 2/21/2020 at 10:24 AM, Psyonico said:

Envenom has -regen, not sure why everyone keeps missing that.

 

Poison's biggest problems are the small radius on its powers and the fact that you need to be in melee range.  If the radius on Envenom/Weaken was extended (not likely to happen) you'd have a very strong set.

Envenom's -regen is uselessly small.

 

The small radius on Envenom (and the far less useful Weaken) is only somewhat of a problem. -resist powers are, in general, not all that great on AE powers because you rarely have time to debuff the spawn and them nuke them. There are some minor exceptions (Blizzard -> Freezing Rain is the classic example), but mostly you're opening with nukes on large spawns rather than debuffs. However, the radius still has the effect of penalizing procs placed in the power vs. AV/GM.

 

Even if you expanded the radius or eliminated it, Envenom would merely be comparable to what you can get elsewhere. But you'd still have a set with 3 mostly superfluous target ally powers, a PBAoE toggle without any of the defenses necessary to make it useful, an uninspiring/unnecessary single target Hold and an unslottable Cone slow. That's a whole lot of bad-in-any-form powers without any real killer app powers in the set.

[Psyonico]

6 hours ago, Hjarki said:

 

Envenom's -regen is uselessly small.

 

 

It's 75% Across the board, I'm not saying that's amazing, but it isn't useless.

 

Poison definitely needs some help.  I think the numbers are fine (perhaps boost the -regen to 100%) but I think the radius needs to be boosted on Envenom/Weaken.  If they were both 25 feet(which would match Time's "Time's Junction" that would probably be a bit overpowered, but 15-20 feet would be strong enough methinks.

[Frosticus]

envenom is only 75% if you target two different enemies and overlap it.

 

50% for your main target, stackable. Not the best by any means,  but useful vs some AVs and most GMs

[Frosticus]

7 hours ago, Hjarki said:

I wouldn't go that far. From my perspective:

1. It has a relatively low (~27% or so) chance to proc any given proc.
2. It has a relatively small radius for both triggering and damage (10 yards?).
3. For some inexplicable reason, it can't slot purple sets.
4. The power itself doesn't do much damage.

1. incorrect 

2. incorrect 

3. you need to lvl 50 to slot purples. My troller has 3 purple damage procs in it.

4. True, but it opens up the pbaoe sets

[Hjarki]

58 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

1. incorrect 

2. incorrect 

3. you need to lvl 50 to slot purples. My troller has 3 purple damage procs in it.

4. True, but it opens up the pbaoe sets

1. I didn't recall off-hand, so I went on the Beta server to try it out before responding. The '27%' is the theoretical number, but it matches in-game performance. With 4 standard procs, I almost never saw 4 procs - it was primarily either 1 or 2 procs. Certainly, you could use higher damage/chance purple procs - but the trap is a poor platform for them if you've got alternatives.
2. Again, I went on the Beta server to try it out. It's hard to gauge ranges, but it's definitely not a 20-25 yard radius that encompasses an entire spawn.
3. This is my fault - I didn't fully the level test character.
4. Opening up PBAoE slots isn't really anything special. On a Corruptor/Defender, the Blast sets have plenty of much higher damage PBAoE to choose from. On a Controller, the pickings are bit slimmer but still available. The only real advantage is that you can potentially use it as a trap - stacking multiples and dragging/Wormholing enemies on top of them. But that's not really compatible with a fast-moving team. However, this is also a disadvantage as it means it's a ground attack only.

While you can certainly throw procs in it, I wouldn't consider it a significant feature of the set. It has a relatively long recharge compared to actual Blast powers to deliver generally worse performance.

[Frosticus]

1. What's your 27% based on? previously you admitted you dont have any idea how big the aoe is, or even how the power works.

 

2. It's not 25 and it's not 10, but you are definitely getting closer

 

3. ok

 

4. No, P-baoes are rare for all the ATs that have poison. You are talking about T-aoes. They take different IO sets. Of particular interest is access to another purple set and a different -res proc.

 

You dont  need to like poison and no one is saying it is the strongest. But comments like "weaken is useless" is not founded on knowledge of game mechanics. 

 

On a rolling nuke team like you seem to be using to highlight that poison isnt very good; poison is actually the best and fastest debuff set you can bring.  You might need to do more than try one out at mid level on test server to know why though. 

 

 

[Hjarki]

47 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

1. What's your 27% based on? previously you admitted you dont have any idea how big the aoe is, or even how the power works.

 

2. It's not 25 and it's not 10, but you are definitely getting closer

 

3. ok

 

4. No, P-baoes are rare for all the ATs that have poison. You are talking about T-aoes. They take different IO sets. Of particular interest is access to another purple set and a different -res proc.

 

You dont  need to like poison and no one is saying it is the strongest. But comments like "weaken is useless" is not founded on knowledge of game mechanics. 

 

On a rolling nuke team like you seem to be using to highlight that poison isnt very good; poison is actually the best and fastest debuff set you can bring.  You might need to do more than try one out at mid level on test server to know why though. 

 

 

1. 27% is based on a 10 yard radius and a 10 sec activation. It matches the in-game performance.

2. 10 is an approximation. Spawns that you can Fireball in their entirety tend to have the fringes missed by the trap.

4. 7 out of 13 Blast sets have PBAoE ultimates. Only 2 out of 9 Control sets have PBAoE damage abilities, but all Defenders/Controllers/Corruptors have access to PBAoE via Epic/Patron pools. That's not 'rare' - that's "anyone can take one if they want one".

 

Irradiate (from Radiation Blast) is almost directly superior to the trap. Given that there's no great rush to take Radiation for Irradiate, it's hard to agree with the notion that the trap is a key selling point of the Poison set.

[Frosticus]

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

1. 27% is based on a 10 yard radius and a 10 sec activation. It matches the in-game performance.

2. 10 is an approximation. Spawns that you can Fireball in their entirety tend to have the fringes missed by the trap.

4. 7 out of 13 Blast sets have PBAoE ultimates. Only 2 out of 9 Control sets have PBAoE damage abilities, but all Defenders/Controllers/Corruptors have access to PBAoE via Epic/Patron pools. That's not 'rare' - that's "anyone can take one if they want one".

 

Irradiate (from Radiation Blast) is almost directly superior to the trap. Given that there's no great rush to take Radiation for Irradiate, it's hard to agree with the notion that the trap is a key selling point of the Poison set.

1. keep testing it. The power doesnt work the way you seem to think.

2. look again

4. I dont put  fury -res in a nuke. That's cool if you do, but I dont think most other people do aside from sentinel nukes maybe, but not them either actually. Purple pbaoe damage proc in a corr nuke or poison trap? depends what/how you fight. It will proc about 17 times over the life of PT. So you'd need to nuke about every 27 seconds to match it in terms of proc efficiency. 

 

PT cycles way faster than a nuke and is important for poison's survival in melee, so I use it nearly every spawn. I dont nuke every spawn because I dont  move that slowly.

 

I think you are just being  contentious for the sake of it because you can't possibly be serious at this point, but if you are;  defs and corrs dont put fury, or armaggedon proc in their epic pbaoes either because few people take thunder-lol-strike. If you want to use dark consumption, or world of confusion  as a pbaoe attack then be my guest, but keep your expectations low. 120 version of soul drain isnt bad though. But you'd need to use it every approx every 19 sec to match PTs proc firing rate vs a full spawn. So...

 

Trollers have even less access to pbaoe attacks. It not a "reason" to roll  poison, but it is a nice aspect if you do. 

 

Irradiate? irradiate? nah, you almost had me there. Refer to #1, I wont take the bait. 

Edited March 28, 2020 by Frosticus

[Hjarki]

45 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

1. keep testing it. The power doesnt work the way you seem to think.

I tested it on a number of different spawns. It procs a single time - upon detonation. It can potentially proc a second time 10 secs later - if it hasn't scattered the spawn. Its overall damage (with procs) is less than conventional nukes.

 

What you are arguing is that the power works in a dramatically different way than any other similar power and is dramatically different from the way it actually works on the Beta server. If you have some secret trick to making it work the way you claim, I'd love to hear it.

Edited March 28, 2020 by Hjarki

[Frosticus]

9 hours ago, Hjarki said:

I tested it on a number of different spawns. It procs a single time - upon detonation. It can potentially proc a second time 10 secs later - if it hasn't scattered the spawn. Its overall damage (with procs) is less than conventional nukes.

 

What you are arguing is that the power works in a dramatically different way than any other similar power and is dramatically different from the way it actually works on the Beta server. If you have some secret trick to making it work the way you claim, I'd love to hear it.

How have I claimed it works specifically?

 

You are making it sound like if something doesn't perform as well as a nuke it isn't worth using. That seems like a ridiculous notion to me. PT cycles almost twice as fast as a "conventional nuke" and holds the entire spawn. Why would it also be expected to do more damage than a nuke? Did you know you can take PT AND a nuke? they aren't mutually exclusive unless you click troller/mm at creation.

 

I'm sitting here on my poison/fire right now vs a pylon and with 5 procs (only 1 of which is purple) it produces anywhere from 1-7 (3-6 being very common) proc hits over the life of the power vs a single target. That is very good return on investment for procs. Not many powers have the potential to produce over a 100% proc rate. Now extrapolate that performance over a spawn.

 

It's not a secret, you just have to understand how a power works and then set your expectations accordingly.

 

Poison needs like 8 enhancement slots to excel. So It's not like you can't spare the slots to 6 slot PT.

[Hjarki]

16 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

You are making it sound like if something doesn't perform as well as a nuke it isn't worth using. That seems like a ridiculous notion to me. PT cycles almost twice as fast as a "conventional nuke" and holds the entire spawn. Why would it also be expected to do more damage than a nuke? Did you know you can take PT AND a nuke? they aren't mutually exclusive unless you click troller/mm at creation.

 

I'm sitting here on my poison/fire right now vs a pylon and with 5 procs (only 1 of which is purple) it produces anywhere from 1-7 (3-6 being very common) proc hits over the life of the power vs a single target. That is very good return on investment for procs. Not many powers have the potential to produce over a 100% proc rate. Now extrapolate that performance over a spawn.

 

It's not a secret, you just have to understand how a power works and then set your expectations accordingly.

 

Poison needs like 8 enhancement slots to excel. So It's not like you can't spare the slots to 6 slot PT.

As I noted, the damage on Poison Trap isn't remotely close to an ultimate nuke. It's less than conventional nukes like Irradiate or Fireball that have much lower recharges. The hold also isn't very good - it's extremely short duration and the nature of the trap tends to scatter a spawn.

 

In terms of return on investment, it's actually quite low because the proc chance is based on the pseudo-pet (10 sec) rather than on the recharge (60 sec). When I was talking about Irradiate, I was being perfectly serious - Irradiate is a substantially better mechanism for damage because it can exploit the disparity between MRT and actual recharge (which Poison Trap can't do) while also having a large radius and strong damage.

 

If you've already decided to play Poison, then you might as well take it. But it's not a very strong selling point for the set.