Nemesis Vengeance shouldn't stack.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

3 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

I read the whole thing, but it was all still founded on that mistaken premise, so the intent was to keep things brief.  In practice, nothing ends up mattering about these defensive powers being popped except the defensive aspects, and those defensive aspects don't do anything meaningful to increase the challenge, only the time spent, and sitting around waiting is even more boring than "facerolling".

You know what really slows down game play? Other players. You act like face rolling is the norm but as one who frequently pugs for TFs that are not at cap and thus stripping the adverage and bad builds of the crutch of incarnate power, that they frequently slow down my characters that could solo the content faster. yet I dont forsake teams nor QQ about the slowing down as just an annoyance rather than a form of challenge, because yes delaying tactics do frequently kill the average players who are not nearly as rare as the forum mythology of everyone being able to solo +4X8 would suggest.

 

Keep in mind a lot of those folks on these very forums who talk about running at that do not do so against challenging mobs and are usually fire farmers. Who ime often get in over their head trying to play like that in normal content.

 

For example in the case of fake nemmy and their bubbles, if they get that bubble off its a sign of sloppy/bad play, good players time a strike strong enough to finish them off when they are around 30% health. Smart blasters stealth now like stalkers to easily get in range for pbaoe nukes to insta kill anything but bosses and even those will usually be only a a strong hit or two from death at best. Stalkers facing mobs their primary dmg is less well resisted by usually equals endless one shotting for them even of bosses at several +s above baseline. We have the tools to negate what you refer to as an annoyance, its usally a lack of using said tools or foresight that allows such delaying tactics to even happen.

 

See it all the time on Manticore TF which my stalker can also solo, Ill say to the team, leave the bosses to me I can take em fast and hard but if you open with a nuke first they will almost for sure activate their undying mode and drag out fights. Yet time and again I become forced to basically solo way ahead of the team to make sure PPs drop quick and easy and end up wiping out the rest of the group while the party catches up

 

My point is basically that your point can as easily be applied to other players in a party causing the very same annoyance you are putting entirely on the game. Basically you either deal with mobs as they come, build to negate their various tricks to make them fast and easy kills, and if you really want to control your game play you have to do it solo as other players can be just as much of a delay cause as a game mechanic.

 

Now I like to party and even pug with toons that can just as easily solo, actually thats my personal benchmark for a character even leading teams and TFs, being able to carry the full weight alone if such must be done. I personally hate party leaders who cant carry their own weight, up the dif and basically use the party as a pack of minions carrying them. Such players/builds should always be joining not leading. Leadership is for those who lead not those who just build a party then  basically sit back quietly expecting the xp to roll in.

 

Sorry but I was in a terrible Moonfire pug today, and 6 out of the 8 of us seemed to have no real ability to build let alone play at more then a snails crawl. My stalker and one stealthy ice def did everything we could to help keep it moving timely but by the gawds the kill alls dragged on because the rest of the party basically had to stick together and tank/heal just to live, and could barely whittle down a boss as 6 in the time in took my 1 to kill entire groups. Normally Id use teleport to bring the group to boss rooms etc, but these 6 were just not worth taking that time or giving that courtesy to. Damn TF took a bloody hour when 40 min is much more reasonable run time for a moonfire. 20 minutes, not merely 2 wasted because of players who simply were and this is putting it kindly at a very mediocre level of play/build ability.  Nor do I say this to be an evil elitist. I just want to stress how your complaint about having time wasted twiddling thumbs in game is paltry next to the impact teams can have on such.

 

I mean we had 2 blasters but they clearly had such bad recharge they couldnt nuke nearly often enough. A tank taht needed the empath glued to him to stay alive. A brute that was eating dirt all the time. I got killed a couple times early on due to having expectation of the team actually being helpful. But in fact they were not collectively worth their scaling. I know this is ranting callow, and unkind towards my fellow gamers but its also a harsh fact. One I feel people who stick to mainly SG and static groups, and mainly stick on capped incarnate toons are largely too insulated from to have a good feel of the actual pulse.

[AerialAssault]

The Vengeance stacking is the Nemesis groups "thing", that is, their ability which makes them a challenge to fight. Without it, Nemesis would be a very mediocre group to fight, only notable for their phasing bosses and poison gas stacks, which would make them almost as easy as Council to fight. Imagine Malta without Sappers, or Carnival of Shadows without Illusionists. They would be sub-standard groups at best.

 

In a meta sense, it inverts the players expectations. Here is an enemy you do NOT want to defeat first, however in groups of up to 8, all eager to unload their AoEs, good luck co-ordinating that.

 

One thing that should be changed is non-Nemesis enemies benefiting from Vengeance.

[Leogunner]

10 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

I read the whole thing, but it was all still founded on that mistaken premise, so the intent was to keep things brief.  In practice, nothing ends up mattering about these defensive powers being popped except the defensive aspects, and those defensive aspects don't do anything meaningful to increase the challenge, only the time spent, and sitting around waiting is even more boring than "facerolling".

Well you're wrong.

 

Unless you feel that we shouldn't have access to the customization that IOs grants in build output, without those IOs, those examples DO pose a threat and even with IOs but unfocused on set bonuses, they can provide a credible threat if not taken into consideration with how you approach them. 

 

Like I said, you either didn't read what I wrote or you just didn't understand it. And if you did both, then you're flat out wrong. 

 

Then there's the fundamental portion of the point that you apparently don't understand: if the target doesn't increase the duration of the encounter, they won't ever have the opportunity to pose a threat and create difficult opposition. Basically, if the mob doesn't survive long enough to do anything, it will never pose a challenge. 

[HelBlaiz]

From the sounds of it, Nemesis could probably invest less of its power into Vengence stacking to get some Leadership toggles, as suggested earlier in the thread, plus a buff to damage, potentially. That way, things are harder at the start of the fight, spike in difficulty once the first LT drops, and slowly turns back in the player's favor as they manage to whittle down the rest. I think that would be more interesting than  a team throwing eight AoEs and being left with one nigh unkillable minion who wasn't in AoE range and can't out damage the tank's regen.

[Sakura Tenshi]

8 hours ago, AerialAssault said:

The Vengeance stacking is the Nemesis groups "thing", that is, their ability which makes them a challenge to fight. Without it, Nemesis would be a very mediocre group to fight, only notable for their phasing bosses and poison gas stacks, which would make them almost as easy as Council to fight. Imagine Malta without Sappers, or Carnival of Shadows without Illusionists. They would be sub-standard groups at best.

My own thoughts is mostly that high end groups should not rely on a single gimmick to be a challenges. Least that's my view.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Sakura Tenshi

[MunkiLord]

Maybe I missed it, but in my opinion there are two reasons Nemesis vengeance makes them more difficult, the defense buff being in addition to the to-hit debuff. Surviving longer by itself is little more than a nuisance. Either one by itself either like wouldn't do much. 

[Leogunner]

4 hours ago, HelBlaiz said:

From the sounds of it, Nemesis could probably invest less of its power into Vengence stacking to get some Leadership toggles, as suggested earlier in the thread, plus a buff to damage, potentially. That way, things are harder at the start of the fight, spike in difficulty once the first LT drops, and slowly turns back in the player's favor as they manage to whittle down the rest. I think that would be more interesting than  a team throwing eight AoEs and being left with one nigh unkillable minion who wasn't in AoE range and can't out damage the tank's regen.

I think there is a conceptual link to the leadership toggles being that usually only bosses use them. Having every lt and minion using these toggles kinds of lessens the concept not to mention a single AoE mez will turn them all off. 

 

But this isn't me saying no changes should be made. I made a whole thread about creating a difficulty mode that added various powers to various mobs and ranks. This is just me saying it might be not only conceptually conflicting but also kinda bland and easily countered. 

 

But by some of the comments here, they don't want mobs to be made more troublesome. 

[HelBlaiz]

My idea wasn't that ALL Nemesis unit s have leadership, but that the ITs have leadership toggles that buff their allies, making the fights tougher initially. Taking out one would eliminate one source of Leadership toggles, but also apply Vengeance, for a net increase in power, but wouldn't stack more than once. This essentially front loads some of their danger potential while alleviating the frustration of uberbuffed cannon fodder.

 

With some number tweaking, it could make Nemesis more formidable AND less frustrating.

[Leogunner]

4 minutes ago, HelBlaiz said:

My idea wasn't that ALL Nemesis unit s have leadership, but that the ITs have leadership toggles that buff their allies, making the fights tougher initially. Taking out one would eliminate one source of Leadership toggles, but also apply Vengeance, for a net increase in power, but wouldn't stack more than once. This essentially front loads some of their danger potential while alleviating the frustration of uberbuffed cannon fodder.

 

With some number tweaking, it could make Nemesis more formidable AND less frustrating.

But you're making them less formidable in the process by taking away stacking vengeance. 

 

I don't think adding some detoggleable powers is a fair trade here. 

[HelBlaiz]

With enough LTs, a spawn of Nemesis will essentially start with one stack of Vengeance worth of stats. If one LT dies, they're at two stacks worth, maybe a little less. That sounds less frustrating than four or six stacks of Vengeance on one minion, but still enough enough +def at the start to make things interesting.

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, HelBlaiz said:

With enough LTs, a spawn of Nemesis will essentially start with one stack of Vengeance worth of stats. If one LT dies, they're at two stacks worth, maybe a little less. That sounds less frustrating than four or six stacks of Vengeance on one minion, but still enough enough +def at the start to make things interesting.

It sounds like you just don't like the +def portion of Vengeance.

 

Why not just admit that you don't want mobs to have too much defense?

 

By the by, there are auto-hit powers that have -def.  I have no qualms with someone expressing their distaste for mobs with access to gobs of defense and how annoying they can be but to me, it's just an opportunity for other powers to shine.  As is, compared to our capacity to stack the tables, mobs never stand a chance.  I just can't agree to stacking the tables in our favor even more out of convenience. 

[HelBlaiz]

23 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

It sounds like you just don't like the +def portion of Vengeance.

 

Why not just admit that you don't want mobs to have too much defense?

 

By the by, there are auto-hit powers that have -def.  I have no qualms with someone expressing their distaste for mobs with access to gobs of defense and how annoying they can be but to me, it's just an opportunity for other powers to shine.  As is, compared to our capacity to stack the tables, mobs never stand a chance.  I just can't agree to stacking the tables in our favor even more out of convenience. 

My issue IS the +Def portion. The issue with Nemesis fights isn't that they take 45 seconds to end, it's that the first three seconds are spent (on PUGs) nuking 95% of the spawn and the next 40 are spent trying to defeat the remaining portion hoping for RNGesus/Streak Breaker to intervene. Ideally, the fight would take the same 45 or so seconds, but instead of City of Whiffs causing it, it's the ebb and flow of Leadership buffs allowing the bulk of a spawn to survive the initial volley, get a Vengeance boost, and scrap it out. Instead of a sharp Spike down followed by a long, long, LONG time hovering JUST above 0% Spawn Health due to copious amounts of +Def, the line would dip from the initial alpha, then waver its way down in a more interesting and dangerous fight against more targets for longer.

 

What sounds more interesting? Spending 90% of the fight missing one minion, or having an actual fight with most of a spawn for the same length of time?

[Sakura Tenshi]

I can understand the frustration having been on the receiving end of this many a times myself, not to mention playing Defense based characters who really feel the +ToHit, but this is meant to be a way to afford some difficulty to the Nemesis group, and that part I can't deny. It's a tricky matter to resolve, especially to my own tastes relating to the lore. I guess if I had to give an alternate solution that does not involve revamping the group massively, I'd just make it so only bosses benefited from Vengeance.

 

Conceptually: it can show Nemesis' leadership sense by having the defeat of his officer outrage him (or the warhulk field officer) sending them into a rampage. Even of they are just machines, it's a resource being lost and failing to serve their greater function in the machinations of the Prince of Brass.

Mechanically: Nemesis bosses are a little underwhelming outside of size, the fake nemesis can make two attacks (actually even EB and AV nemesis can only do two attacks), so this adds a bit of a layer of threat to them and stacked veng makes it feel like you're suddenly really fighting the real nemesis (another reason why the dude can be hard to pin down). But also helps teams not get completely overwhelmed or stuck waiting because a dozen minions are now AV levels of tough.

 

Another alternative I thought of while writing this is: Vengeance no longer stacks, but the individual buff is now much bigger. So it's a flat-rate jump, enough for it to be felt even in team-scale fights (so maybe like +35% defense, +20% ToHit, and +30% damage?) but the lack of stacking caps it from becoming overwhelming and stalling.

 

As a side note: I remember checking awhile ago, and I don't think Nemesis Veng is comprehensive like the player version, I believe it's typed damage only and does not cover psionics and possibly even negative damage. Lastly, I suppose both of these really do just nerf it and feed the faceroll feel of combat in city. I can understand that slowing down in a team can feel frustrating, but perhaps some roadblocks could be useful to allow certain powers to actually be used as brought up by Leo: devices, traps, long snipes, and assassin strikes are all things that suffered as the game's pacing sped out, and at least two of them had been changed to accommodate even back in the live days. So, my point being? I can't say. People hate the faceroll and others hate having to slow down, and there doesn't seem to be a happy middle ground and I can't say if either one is wrong or right. It feels like just a side effect of City having been a game originally intended for methodical battles, but ended up going towards fast and relentless speeds.

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, HelBlaiz said:

My issue IS the +Def portion. The issue with Nemesis fights isn't that they take 45 seconds to end, it's that the first three seconds are spent (on PUGs) nuking 95% of the spawn and the next 40 are spent trying to defeat the remaining portion hoping for RNGesus/Streak Breaker to intervene. Ideally, the fight would take the same 45 or so seconds, but instead of City of Whiffs causing it, it's the ebb and flow of Leadership buffs allowing the bulk of a spawn to survive the initial volley, get a Vengeance boost, and scrap it out. Instead of a sharp Spike down followed by a long, long, LONG time hovering JUST above 0% Spawn Health due to copious amounts of +Def, the line would dip from the initial alpha, then waver its way down in a more interesting and dangerous fight against more targets for longer.

 

What sounds more interesting? Spending 90% of the fight missing one minion, or having an actual fight with most of a spawn for the same length of time?

Like I said before, if you're having a problem the usual solution is to "try something different".  I guess if the enemies are so "annoying" but ineffectual, maybe try holding back on the nukes or time them with allies?  I know, unrealistic to expect coordination or tactics but I say again, the way they are poses a larger threat as you CAN end up stacking Vengeance on a Boss that can cause someone some issues.

 

What sounds most interesting, you ask? A fight that doesn't proceed like 99% of every other fight.  I want more randomness, more unexpectedness, more need to adapt and change.  The suggestion, while it may have a slight difference than current, falls squarely in the pocket of min/maxed steamroller teams.  I see no reason to cater to that crowd.  Not trying to diss that crowd but they need no assistance.  I'd much rather that last minion pose more threat somehow than to nerf them so you don't have to be "bothered" by it because you just want to use the same herd&nuke tactics all the time.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

14 hours ago, HelBlaiz said:

My issue IS the +Def portion. The issue with Nemesis fights isn't that they take 45 seconds to end, it's that the first three seconds are spent (on PUGs) nuking 95% of the spawn and the next 40 are spent trying to defeat the remaining portion hoping for RNGesus/Streak Breaker to intervene. Ideally, the fight would take the same 45 or so seconds, but instead of City of Whiffs causing it, it's the ebb and flow of Leadership buffs allowing the bulk of a spawn to survive the initial volley, get a Vengeance boost, and scrap it out. Instead of a sharp Spike down followed by a long, long, LONG time hovering JUST above 0% Spawn Health due to copious amounts of +Def, the line would dip from the initial alpha, then waver its way down in a more interesting and dangerous fight against more targets for longer.

 

What sounds more interesting? Spending 90% of the fight missing one minion, or having an actual fight with most of a spawn for the same length of time?

Uhm if its one minion you bloody ignore it and move on, all your admitting to is terrible play style. Blaster rolls into a nemmy group, because nemmy are not exactly lowbie zone mobs, and nukes, everything but bosses die, scrappers clean up the bosses, blasters move on. That is how smart team play using the original DPS ATs worked way way back.  ATs may change but the basic best way to deal with nemmy's is still the same.

 

One does not spend time on minions, minions that manage to not be caught in the initial blast are free to be tag along spanws on the next groups. Sooner or later everything is dead.

 

Be smarter and dont make the game harder then it actually is.

[Seed22]

30 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Uhm if its one minion you bloody ignore it and move on, all your admitting to is terrible play style. Blaster rolls into a nemmy group, because nemmy are not exactly lowbie zone mobs, and nukes, everything but bosses die, scrappers clean up the bosses, blasters move on. That is how smart team play using the original DPS ATs worked way way back.  ATs may change but the basic best way to deal with nemmy's is still the same.

 

One does not spend time on minions, minions that manage to not be caught in the initial blast are free to be tag along spanws on the next groups. Sooner or later everything is dead.

 

Be smarter and dont make the game harder then it actually is.

Well that’s how YOU play. Not everyone does the same tactic, otherwise I’d imagine the game  would be very boring. Not every team will have that ideal setup to do so, plus, even if it did not everyone would like to play that way. Calling someone’s play bad because they enjoy it isn’t very nice. I could say your play is terrible on a blaster because you think psi blast(as I’ve seen you advocate on its behalf like it’s some kind of hidden powerhouse) has respectable damage in the long run, that wouldn’t be true, nor would it be nice either. 

[HelBlaiz]

I never thought I'd get so much resistance to the idea of making fights more dangerous AND less frustrating.

 

But here we are, I suppose.

 

I personally don't think what essentially amounts to giving an all but defeated mob godmode is very good game design, vengeance stacking and MoG alike. While tactics and coordination might eliminate it, you can only reliably do that solo or in e-sports style teamwork.

[Leogunner]

7 minutes ago, HelBlaiz said:

I never thought I'd get so much resistance to the idea of making fights more dangerous AND less frustrating.

 

But here we are, I suppose.

 

I personally don't think what essentially amounts to giving an all but defeated mob godmode is very good game design, vengeance stacking and MoG alike. While tactics and coordination might eliminate it, you can only reliably do that solo or in e-sports style teamwork.

Well I feel I provided an adequate reply as to why I don't think it would make the fights harder. I guess I'm simply just resistance then. 

 

I'm not against giving the LTs leadership, I just don't think removing stacking vengeance is a fair trade. 

[HelBlaiz]

Whether or not it turns out to be fair would depend on the number values, those can be modified in testing until it feels right. The PREMISE of removing the Vengeance stacking for some more up front and immediate buffs is a solid one, so long as time is taken to make sure the numbers provide the proper feel for the fight.

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, HelBlaiz said:

Whether or not it turns out to be fair would depend on the number values, those can be modified in testing until it feels right. The PREMISE of removing the Vengeance stacking for some more up front and immediate buffs is a solid one, so long as time is taken to make sure the numbers provide the proper feel for the fight.

How about the perspective that the stacking version makes other - def powers shine? 

[HelBlaiz]

Not all characters have access to -Def powers. Not all characters with -def powers have auto hit -Def powers. If every group who fights Nemesis feels obligated to bring along a Rad defender, that's not engaging, that's a stat check. CoH might be a game of numbers, but that doesn't mean the only way to provide adversity is absurdly large numbers.

[Bossk_Hogg]

I'm fine with it stacking, but if the leader is held/stunned the vengeance shouldn't activate. We need to reward control more in this game. Stuff like veng and carnies phasing while held pisses me off and just reinforces city of AE damage as the only thing that matters.

[Lazarillo]

1 hour ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

carnies phasing while held

Actually, I'm pretty sure this isn't a thing.  I totally remember it being a thing, so it mighta been a Homecoming change, though.

They'll still do their little drainy scream thing when they die, though (although I've never, on any alt, really every "noticed" an abnormally large hit to my end from those like some claim.  Maybe I just suck at managing it?).

[Outrider_01]

20 hours ago, HelBlaiz said:

nuking 95% of the spawn and the next 40 are spent trying to defeat the remaining portion

Reduce level difficulty, your damage doesn't reduce and does more vs the lower NPC health. Change Boss and the EB setting.  Everything is now easier.

 

Problem solved. More minions are dead before the LT and you are left with a boss.  That's the more annoying part, of course you could kill the boss first then faceroll the minions.  But you know; lack of tactics and being used to Incarnate badass faceroll mode dumbs down the game.  If you don't have the time in life to go get a sandwich while Veng wears off you could avoid Nemesis.

[Outrider_01]

1 hour ago, Lazarillo said:

Actually, I'm pretty sure this isn't a thing.  I totally remember it being a thing,

Notsurewhatyouaresaying.meme

 

You remember it did or did not phase?  I know they did in the past; level of eyebrow twitching anger post 40 for annoying factions

1. Carnie
2. Devouring Earth dropped buff plants
3. Nemesis 
4. Malta

Malta is easier (like 5th Column) then the rest minus the sappers and the teleporting cowboys, that stupid hold and wears off before you can mez them they port off or stunned during their animation.