Nemesis Vengeance shouldn't stack.

[Greever]

Nemesis are a fun enemy group but their stacking vengeance, especially when playing against large groups of nemesis is very annoying.

 

You're killing a couple of Nemesis, and the familiar red-glow of vengeance triggers. Once is fine. You can still overcome that. But soon enough they have 2-3 stacked and your To Hit chance falls to 5-7%. And you just need to wait it out before you can hit them again.

 

I think this would so much better if it's not allowed to stack.

 

 

[SwitchFade]

Sorry, no vote, leave Nems as is.

 

The game is face-rolly enough, no need to make every group family/warrior omgroflecopter easy.

 

Nems get veng, Malta resist and suck end, rikti mez, carnies... Just suck, but that's good... Longbow wreck you, KoA slow, arachnid just blind the holy fuxorsauce out of you and mindmash...

 

So on. Tactics (literally and figuratively), yellow candy, lower diff, recruit help...

 

It's all a Nemesis plot.

[Redlynne]

The reason why it can stack is because each buff is not being cast by the same caster (for what ought to be obvious reasons).

 

Request denied.

[MunkiLord]

I like that it stacks, would rather it stay as is.

[Troo]

"Nemesis Vengeance shouldn't stack"... this is working as intended.

 

There are strategies that can help minimize or overcome the effect.

 

While it can definitely be a bit frustrating, a little education and application of knowledge.. we want some non-grind challenges, don't we?

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Troo
quotes and relevance

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Seriously, these kind of suggestions hurt my soul. If anything imo every Boss mob in the game should have veng for when their minions inevitably get beat down around them. Every LT should have at least one leadership toggle, Also Nemmys should have every mob with a  self destruct to really throw the middle finger up from the big Nem himself.

 

There are many very good little falvor ways to give mobs logical upgrades without going full power boost for them. Yeah missing a bunch in a row feels lame, but that is usually a build issue, as well made builds( not meta builds just builds taking into account things like being debuffed etc) usually have things like build up/aim, and the leadership acc toggle to help compensate for the ahrder to hit mobs. Its pretty rare to miss with a build up strike if you gave it a full 6 part set to optimize it. I suspect the issue is so many stick maybe 1-2 recahrges in such powers and the build up IO proc and call it a day rather then upgrade its to hit bonus enough etc.

[ScarySai]

It's something to play around, and you can always run away if you kill too many LTs in a short amount of time.

 

It's not nearly as obnoxious as say, KoA caltrops used to be.

 

 

[Outrider_01]

9 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

KoA caltrops used to be

What?  I like to play jacks with the girls, was a challenge when they threw out a few hundred caltops.

 

[ScarySai]

29 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

What?  I like to play jacks with the girls, was a challenge when they threw out a few hundred caltops.

 

The slow stacking was also easy to play around, but could get pretty nutty with certain builds. It's not nearly as crazy as it used to be.

[Redlynne]

29 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

What?  I like to play jacks with the girls, was a challenge when they threw out a few hundred caltops.

Was always fun to stay in 1 spot and have like 6-10 stacks of Caltrops cast at you from different directions ... because the combination started looking an awful lot like a spiral armed galaxy of "stars" underneath you when you used Hover to get above them all.

[Outrider_01]

56 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

The slow stacking was also easy to play around, but could get pretty nutty with certain builds. It's not nearly as crazy as it used to be.

I don't know you why quoted me but maybe missed the joke I attempted to make, I know about Knives of Artemis and the caltrop patches as jacks.

Spoiler

Caltrops = Jacks

 

 

Imagine having to pick up a few hundred of those in a game 🤣

 

 

 

[Ruin Mage]

"i dont like the game design, please change."

No.

[ScarySai]

34 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

I don't know you why quoted me but maybe missed the joke I attempted to make, I know about Knives of Artemis and the caltrop patches as jacks.

  Reveal hidden contents

Caltrops = Jacks

 

 

Imagine having to pick up a few hundred of those in a game 🤣

 

 

 

That's just how I reply to people. >_>

 

But I will say, you did confuse me with the reply, so I made a guess as to where you were going.

[Coyotedancer]

I'll admit that it can be a real pain on the typical "Let's slam into this with our faces!"-type team... But when I'm running solo I actually kind of enjoy trying to work around it in groups with multiple Lts.

 

The save-them-for-last and then "Let's see if I can manage to balance out the damage and then KILL BOTH OF YOU/ALL OF YOU simultaneously with this AoE" mini-game has entertainment value. 

 

I'd miss that. 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[Haijinx]

/jranger on all attempts to make this game easier

[Outrider_01]

** their stacking vengeance, especially when playing against large groups of nemesis is very annoying. **

 

ION JUDGMENT!!!!! is kinda a lack of judgment when everyone is throwing AoE around like it is New Year's Eve in high end groups.  And they are used to it. Full on Incarnate I don't know their ability  to hit when +def is through the roof, kinda a penalty for being a bad ass if it's a problem.  Not so much at lower levels, still sucks.

 

I remember back in the day killing priority targets first (sapper) or saving for last ( Veng Lt), separating when necessary (Malta robots).  Now?  WTFBBQ ROFLCOPTER faceroll keyboard licking easy mode; everyone is used to being a bad ass forgetting tactics.

 

Edit:  Damn phone is pain to edit with

Edited February 22, 2020 by Outrider_01

[Lazarillo]

People talk about hard versus easy, but frankly, I don't think the Vengeance stacking makes things any harder...just more of a time sink.  I actually do think it should be removed, but as part of a greater overhaul to make the Nemesis faction harder overall, because on the whole, even if the defense buffs make them take forever to beat, they're actually too damn easy, and too damn simple. 

 

Limit Vengeance to a single stack (or make it only effect the mob the LT spawns in, kinda like Rikti buffs), but give the LTs a wider variety of Leadership buffs in the first place.  Give them "steam gunners" that can use Water Blast powers from their weapons (or if that's too hard, use the normal animations but say they've got steam projectors strapped to their wrists, maybe?).  Make Warhulks not just explode but leave behind a massive Burn patch.  Include some Traps, and some Trick Arrows...

 

Nemesis is such a cool villain, but yeah, let's make his army feel like an actual army to fight, not a bunch of helpless mooks who can't hurt you while you leave your seat to go refill your drink.

[SwitchFade]

OP, go to RWZ, do Gausian's arc...

 

And fight the Rogue Vanguard on +4/8. Seriously.

 

After that, you will be relieved to fight nems

[Leogunner]

15 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

People talk about hard versus easy, but frankly, I don't think the Vengeance stacking makes things any harder...just more of a time sink.

The only way to increase difficulty is to also increase encounter time.  Granted, you can increase encounter time but not increase difficulty, but again, there has to be a portion of an encounter to exist for difficulty to be increased in.

 

But if a mob just huddles up and dies, that's the opposite of increasing difficulty.  Having measures to make the same old tactic less universal is a better approach.  Rather than remove or nerf their Vengeance stacking, why not decrease the range to about 60ft instead.  Make it so you actually want to keep them dispersed.  Doesn't mean you can't stack 'em, but if you're finding issues with stacking Vengeance then the solution should be "try something different".

 

 

[Lazarillo]

44 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

The only way to increase difficulty is to also increase encounter time.  Granted, you can increase encounter time but not increase difficulty, but again, there has to be a portion of an encounter to exist for difficulty to be increased in.

I think the problem is the "you can increase encounter time but not increase difficulty" part, 'cause that's essentially what happens with Nemesis soldiers.  You end up with one or two guys who have so much stacked Vengeance that you can't hit them, but their own damage and ability to hamper you is so poor, you might as well just go fight the next set of enemies and ignore them completely.  Or if you're on a defeat all, just alt-tab for a couple minutes.  When the best solution to an in-game problem is not tread carefully, but rather to just stop playing the game, well, that's just not very inspiring.

 

Nemesis aren't the only ones who have this problem, for what it's worth, either.  Power-pattern Paragon Protectors having two minutes of "ignore them, it's MoG", Arachnos Tarantula Mistresses having an undodgeable, unremovable "you cannot see anything for 1 minute" debuff (the other half of which is a massive defense hit that is more in line with what they should be able to do), or even, coming back to Nemesis, the tendency of the fakes to just sit there with their "can't attack, can't be attacked" shield.  What's the point?  It's not adding challenge if you're doing nothing for a minute, then just instantly getting what you'd have had one minute ago if not for the shield the moment it expires.

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

I think the problem is the "you can increase encounter time but not increase difficulty" part, 'cause that's essentially what happens with Nemesis soldiers.  You end up with one or two guys who have so much stacked Vengeance that you can't hit them, but their own damage and ability to hamper you is so poor, you might as well just go fight the next set of enemies and ignore them completely.  Or if you're on a defeat all, just alt-tab for a couple minutes.  When the best solution to an in-game problem is not tread carefully, but rather to just stop playing the game, well, that's just not very inspiring.

 

Nemesis aren't the only ones who have this problem, for what it's worth, either.  Power-pattern Paragon Protectors having two minutes of "ignore them, it's MoG", Arachnos Tarantula Mistresses having an undodgeable, unremovable "you cannot see anything for 1 minute" debuff (the other half of which is a massive defense hit that is more in line with what they should be able to do), or even, coming back to Nemesis, the tendency of the fakes to just sit there with their "can't attack, can't be attacked" shield.  What's the point?  It's not adding challenge if you're doing nothing for a minute, then just instantly getting what you'd have had one minute ago if not for the shield the moment it expires.

You really are coming at this the incorrect way.

 

Those Nemesis soldiers aren't just getting +def.  They get damage and resistance to mez too.  They would be posing a greater threat to an individual using defense armor sets or ATs that rely on mez to keep them from attacking back.

 

Those Paragon Protectors can pull off a defeat on a squishy or weakened armor type if they can't stop them from using their last ditch buffs.

 

Those -perception debuffs can be a death sentence to a squishy relying on a tank to keep them safe.  A tank that can't see won't be able to peel the mobs from those vulnerable teammates.

 

Now if they pose no threat to YOU then it's not particularly an issue with the game just increasing encounter time.  You've just decreased the threat they pose.  If anything, you should be happy that you have the ability to decrease these mobs' threat...or would you rather they tear you apart regardless of your build?  Because I can tell you, if I had 10k inf for every time a team put the difficulty too high and we went into an arachnos map, expecting to roll through them like the other missions only to get roadblocked hard, I could at least buy a purple set for one of my alts sitting at 45+.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Leogunner

[Lazarillo]

55 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

They get damage and resistance to mez too. 

The problem with that supposed damage is that buffing a tiny number is still a tiny number, whereas the Defense buffs are additive.  So only the survivability increases.

Similarly (albeit for slightly different reasons) with things like Power-Protectors...if they were enough of a threat, then they're just as likely to kill you before they pop their Two Minutes of Glory.  Extending the time they pose a threat isn't typically much of a thing because if they didn't kill ya up front, you're probably just running back from the hospital anyway.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Lazarillo

[Sakura Tenshi]

honestly, I don't mind Nemesis having Veng, but lorewise it feels strange for two reasons: 1) Nemesis' army is built around a cult of personality, for the human portion of it they wouldn't likely care if a rank and file officer was murdered, it's not like he's Lord Nemesis. 2) an indeterminable part of Nemesis' army is made up of automatons, and while they can seem sophistocated, we commonly see the standard one is massively flawed and only cannot be recognized because the plot forces you to fail to see it, and thus are unlikely capable of even emotional mimicry besides some stilted, prerecording that would sound like a Bioshock Infinite Motorized Patriot.

 

I guess if I were asked to redesign Nemesis Army, I think I'd probably just give different types of Lt's each a different leadership buff aura. (Probably including +recovery, +recharge, and +regen to keep any one from stacking to unbearable levels). Fake Nemesis are the sources of Venge buffs, playing on the idea that each Fake Nemesis is both a representation and mobile monument to their great leader. Nemesis automatons like jaegers and the civilian based ones do not benefit from veng because they're too dumb. Admittedly, there'd be a lot of other changed I'd like to make too but that's really another thread and this goes a bit off topic.

[Leogunner]

55 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

The problem with that supposed damage is that buffing a tiny number is still a tiny number, whereas the Defense buffs are additive.  So only the survivability increases.

Similarly (albeit for slightly different reasons) with things like Power-Protectors...if they were enough of a threat, then they're just as likely to kill you before they pop their Two Minutes of Glory.  Extending the time they pose a threat isn't typically much of a thing because if they didn't kill ya up front, you're probably just running back from the hospital anyway.

Did...did you stop reading after that quoted sentence?

[Lazarillo]

1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

Did...did you stop reading after that quoted sentence?

I read the whole thing, but it was all still founded on that mistaken premise, so the intent was to keep things brief.  In practice, nothing ends up mattering about these defensive powers being popped except the defensive aspects, and those defensive aspects don't do anything meaningful to increase the challenge, only the time spent, and sitting around waiting is even more boring than "facerolling".