Debating the best patron set for a crab spider

[Azrik]

I was initially thinking mace mastery simply so I could get the blaster pet to keep the theme going, but also for the aoe immobilize. I know they already get access to to an aoe immobilize, but this way I can grab the immobilize as a step toward the pet power. I've also been considering the Leviathan mastery mainly for the Arctic breath power for all those debuffs. At the same time I've heard people say that Mu mastery is a really strong choice for reasons I can't remember atm. What's your recommendations?

[Seigmoraig]

I run with Mu mastery on mine. Mu Lightning hits really hard, recharges really fast and it has a split second animation, I replaced Channelgun with it in my ST rotation.

I have Electrifying Fences but it is unslotted and only there to give access to the Mu Striker pet.

 

I posted the build I use in this thread, which has some other build examples and more in depth discussion about the other patron powers

 

 

[Shockacon]

Probably the worst looking choice, but on my original crab spider I went with Leviathan Mastery. Picked up School of Sharks (used infrequently) and Bile Spray. Bile Spray became part of my opening salvo with Omega Maneuvers, Suppression, and venom Grenade (not in that order, though). Seemed to do rather well thinning out herds while the spiderbots picked off the survivors. My current crab spider is only in the low 30's though so I don't know if I will go the same route because I don't want to look like I was at a college kegger right before battle (go Cap Au Diable State University Demons!)... probably will though.

 

Outside of that I second Seigmoraig on the choice of Mu. My widow has it and I like it. Then again, with a handle like Shockacon, seems like I would naturally lean toward wanting to shoot electricity  at mobs...

[Pyro Technix]

I tried Leviathan mastery for a while, but it was just too slow for me. Mu mastery is a great choice for AoE. It's really good if you've got high global recharge you can proc it for some great damage. I actually ended up with venom, frag, and heavy burst (loaded with - res) and Mu for a relatively quick moving Aoe chain. 

 

Side note: Shockacon is a fantastic name. If you're not electrifying cons I hope you're at least walking through fire. 

[Shockacon]

3 hours ago, Pyro Technix said:

Side note: Shockacon is a fantastic name. If you're not electrifying cons I hope you're at least walking through fire.

I freely admit to jumping into packs of Rikti monkeys and launching Ion Judgement or some AOE electric power while singing Peter Gabriel's "Shock the Monkey" more than a few times.

[Omega-202]

See the above post regarding my opinion of Mace for Crabs.  

 

Generally, I will echo Seigmorag here: Mu has the best, most well rounded set.  Mace has 3 real dud powers (web and the two blasts).  Leviathan is killed by its long animations, and the awesomeness of Artic Breath isn't enough to compensate for it.  Soul is pretty good and is very similar to Mu, but the Blood Widow pet is straight up suicidal because of its 90% melee attack pool.  

 

Mu gives the best of all worlds: pretty quick attack animations with good damage (except for Discharge), a ranged pet that survives with a fast summon time and useful prereqs so you're not taking useless powers.  It's only downside is that the -end effect is basically useless.  All of Mu's options are basically the "second best" version available in the PPPs (eg Mu Lightning is second best after Gloom), but together they make the whole pool pretty good.  

Edited February 25, 2020 by Omega-202

[tidge]

I love Mu on my Fortunata, she uses all three DPS attacks to cut through large groups of enemies.

 

On my Crab, I'm sticking with Mace for now. I'm using a total of 16 slots on the Immob, Shatter Armor, and the pet. The pet was the main driver, but I also need a strong single-target attack and Shatter Armor meets that need. The other motivator for my build is that those three powers allow me to slot for extra Global Recharge. I very rarely need the Immob, but the SG base has all the Purple pieces just taking up space...

[Scientist]

While Leviathan has long animations, I'm normally teaming on my Crab, and even MORE AoE -resist is too sweet to pass up, plus Arctic has doubled -resist for Toxic damage (note this isn't mentioned in Mids, you have to hunt around for the info), which you can do a lot of between Bile Spray and Venom Grenade and the Spiders Bite ATO global toxic proc.  A friend and I theorycrafted this against a Fire blaster even without the ATO back on Live, and while the blaster can do more AoE in the first 5 seconds or so, after that the Crab catches up and stays ahead.  The Crab also obviously has a lot better native defenses and team support with the Leadership toggles.  

[Omega-202]

4 hours ago, Scientist said:

While Leviathan has long animations, I'm normally teaming on my Crab, and even MORE AoE -resist is too sweet to pass up, plus Arctic has doubled -resist for Toxic damage (note this isn't mentioned in Mids, you have to hunt around for the info), which you can do a lot of between Bile Spray and Venom Grenade and the Spiders Bite ATO global toxic proc.  A friend and I theorycrafted this against a Fire blaster even without the ATO back on Live, and while the blaster can do more AoE in the first 5 seconds or so, after that the Crab catches up and stays ahead.  The Crab also obviously has a lot better native defenses and team support with the Leadership toggles.  

I think you're mistaken on the bonus toxic resistance debuff on Arctic.  You're probably confusing it with the bonus -res to toxic in Venom Grenade.  I have dug and I am 99% sure you're wrong on that one.

 

Here's i24 info on Artic Breath, taken straight from rhe game data:

http://web.archive.org/web/20140821044448/http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Epic.VEAT_Leviathan_Mastery.Arctic_Breath

[Scientist]

You are completely correct, Omega-202, I got that mixed up, it is the Venom Grenade that has a -40% toxic resist debuff with only -20% resist against other damage.  That still means a nice damage bonus from Bile Spray, though, as part of an AoE attack chain.  After VG and Arctic, the Bile is hitting against -55% AoE resist on the foes.  Add that to the toxic damage from the ATO proc, and it is just hard to beat Crab AoE damage against tough spawns.  Against weak spawns, a Fire blaster will certainly be faster because of fast animations.  There is a LOT of high level content people play on +4, though, and all their AoEs will see -25% foe resists, which is comparable to most defender AoE debuffs.  

 

Dang it, I was thinking of making a blaster alt, and just talked myself out of it. . . 😛 

Edited March 13, 2020 by Scientist

[Omega-202]

17 hours ago, Scientist said:

You are completely correct, Omega-202, I got that mixed up, it is the Venom Grenade that has a -40% toxic resist debuff with only -20% resist against other damage.  That still means a nice damage bonus from Bile Spray, though, as part of an AoE attack chain.  After VG and Arctic, the Bile is hitting against -55% AoE resist on the foes.  Add that to the toxic damage from the ATO proc, and it is just hard to beat Crab AoE damage against tough spawns.  Against weak spawns, a Fire blaster will certainly be faster because of fast animations.  There is a LOT of high level content people play on +4, though, and all their AoEs will see -25% foe resists, which is comparable to most defender AoE debuffs.  

 

Dang it, I was thinking of making a blaster alt, and just talked myself out of it. . . 😛 

You're right that Bile and Artic sounf tempting when laid out like that, but its all about opportunity cost.  By taking Leviathan for those two long recharge cones, you're not taking a different PPP that helps with your single target damage.  Crabs already do amazing AoE damage with their primary powers, so the question is "are the Leviathan cones actually helping that much?" Or are you better off just using Suppression in their place in the attack chain, doing slightly worse AoE damage, but taking a PPP that actually has a usable single target attack?  Especially since you can still slot Suppression with the Annihilation and/or Achilles -Res Procs.

 

Also something to consider is that the -res numbers you have up there are pre-level corrected.  You need to multiply those numbers by 65% for +3 enemies and 48% for +4.  So in the end, you're not increasing your damage by as much as you think.  

 

But to your conclusion: Fire Blasters and Crabs do different things.  The Blaster would win the sprint but the Crab would win the marathon.  You're never going to nuke a group as fast as the Blaster, but you also never need to stop firing AoEs. 

[Redlynne]

That's also ignoring the animation time for those patron pool attack powers.  The Arcanatime durations are kind of prohibitive on Leviathan Mastery.  See for yourself ...

Spirit Shark: 3.168s

School of Sharks: 2.508s

Arctic Breath: 2.904s

Bile Spray: 2.904s

= 11.484s total for all 4 attacks

 

That's A LOT of animation time!  For comparison purposes, here's the Arcanatime durations of the Crab Backpack attack powers.

Channelgun: 1.584s

Longfang: 2.244s

Suppression: 3.168s

Venom Grenade: 1.848s

Frag Grenade: 1.848s

= 10.692s total for all 5 attacks

 

And then you want to compare that to the Arcanatime durations for all of the Rifle attack powers.

Single Shot: 1.056s

Burst: 1.188s

Wide Area Web Grenade: 1.848s

Heavy Burst: 2.904s

Venom Grenade: 1.848s

Frag Grenade: 1.848s

= 10.692s total for all 6 attacks

 

Note, the above cross comparison of animation times is why I always assert that Huntsman builds are "faster to animate" their attacks than Crab Backpack builds, since you can attack 6 times out of the Rifle in the exact same amount of time that it takes to attack 5 times out of the Backpack ... and depending on how you build and prefer the "tempo" of your gameplay, that CAN make a difference that you can "feel" in how the character plays (that and standing ankle deep in spent brass shell casings).

 

Yes, the Leviathan pool powers will inflict -Resistance debuffing on $Target(s) ... but ask yourself, for the amount of TIME that you're spending on animating those Leviathan attacks to get those debuffs, how many attacks do you need to make in order to break even (let alone get ahead) of the damage output you would have been doing without using those Leviathan attacks?  Now count up how LONG it's going to take you to realize that "advantage" that Leviathan attacks debuffing your $Target(s) and ask yourself ... aside from AVs and GMs, how many $Target(s) are going to remain upright long enough to actually realize the debuffing advantage that the Leviathan attacks are giving you?  If the answer is "not many" then why are you using (and investing in) the Leviathan attacks in the first place?

 

Now, granted ... the Leviathan attack powers LOOK COOL and somewhat cinematic (SH4RXX0R!  D4NG0R!!), and for some people that's all that really matters (so they can have a good time playing their Soldier and feel like they're AWESOME!!!).  But when it comes to the comparative advantages of differing builds and build strategies, you need to drill all the way down to the level of comparing attack chain cycle performances for the entirety of the attack chain (and how fast powers recharge in the build and so on and so forth) to know if you're REALLY getting an advantage out of Leviathan attack powers in the context of your entire build (or not).

[TheSpiritFox]

I actually really like Soul. Gloom hits hard af, recharges and animates fast. I have the immob unslotted with an accuracy, but with hasten at 1:58 recharge before ageless it recharges fast enough to double stack on bosses and hold runners if I start my chain with it. 

 

I like the blood widow extra pet. I find in sub 50 content I took her late enough she doesn't pop up much but can do ok. In 50 content sometimes with a support hybrid and barrier going the pets themselves can be really fucking tanky. Blood widow does some solid damage and takes a solid hit. I have a minute gap on my blood widow but perma on the others and I still fit 6 attacks so I have a full single target and AOE attack chain. Summon pets, if they die they die, artillery everything until it's dead either way. Above 55% resist to everything and softcapped melee and ranged damage helps a ton. I had to make a cardiac alpha for barrier because I had to make an ageless to manage end with musculature in lol. But ageless with musc alpha and assault hybrid and if the pets truly won't survive an alternate incarnate build lets me pump out kinda silly amounts of aoe damage. I'm not a fire blaster but then not much is. 

[merrypessimist]

I went soul on my crab.  Gloom is crazy good in terms of damage and animation time, doesn't require redraw, and then dark obliteration is another AOE to add to the crabs' innate AOE capabilities.  I found the rest of the pool basically ignoreable.

[Scientist]

On 3/14/2020 at 10:11 AM, Redlynne said:

That's also ignoring the animation time for those patron pool attack powers.  The Arcanatime durations are kind of prohibitive on Leviathan Mastery.  See for yourself ...

Spirit Shark: 3.168s

School of Sharks: 2.508s

Arctic Breath: 2.904s

Bile Spray: 2.904s

= 11.484s total for all 4 attacks

 

That's A LOT of animation time!  For comparison purposes, here's the Arcanatime durations of the Crab Backpack attack powers.

Channelgun: 1.584s

Longfang: 2.244s

Suppression: 3.168s

Venom Grenade: 1.848s

Frag Grenade: 1.848s

= 10.692s total for all 5 attacks

 

And then you want to compare that to the Arcanatime durations for all of the Rifle attack powers.

Single Shot: 1.056s

Burst: 1.188s

Wide Area Web Grenade: 1.848s

Heavy Burst: 2.904s

Venom Grenade: 1.848s

Frag Grenade: 1.848s

= 10.692s total for all 6 attacks

 

Yes, the Leviathan pool powers will inflict -Resistance debuffing on $Target(s) ... but ask yourself, for the amount of TIME that you're spending on animating those Leviathan attacks to get those debuffs, how many attacks do you need to make in order to break even (let alone get ahead) of the damage output you would have been doing without using those Leviathan attacks?  Now count up how LONG it's going to take you to realize that "advantage" that Leviathan attacks debuffing your $Target(s) and ask yourself ... aside from AVs and GMs, how many $Target(s) are going to remain upright long enough to actually realize the debuffing advantage that the Leviathan attacks are giving you?  If the answer is "not many" then why are you using (and investing in) the Leviathan attacks in the first place?

I hadn't actually analyzed them as carefully as that, and based on what you posted I actually swapped the Huntsman ST attacks back in for the backpack ones.  Yes, there is redraw, but I normally do an AoE cycle, then SS/Burst/SS, and back to AoEs, so it isn't that bad.  I still like the Arctic Breath, though, for boosting team AoE damage.  I bring the Crab to teams that need more AoE damage, especially if I know I may have to be fairly self sufficient with surviving the resulting aggro, otherwise I may bring someone else who fills some other missing role.  School of Sharks only gets used if I need to immob groups on a particular team, fairly rare, and I didn't even take Spirit Shark.  

 

As Omega-202 said, a Crab is more about the marathon than the sprint for damage dealing, and in this case I was targeting a marathon spawn melter, who still had enough debuffs to help a lot with AVs.  I could easily see making some of the other choices mentioned in this thread, though, if I soloed a lot, or wanted to use this character on every single team.  

[kiramon]

I'd choose Mu or Soul, honestly.

 

Soul is very good. Very good. Mu is almost as good. Soul had more endurance problems for me, primarily because of Gloom vs Mu Lightning... With Mu my endurance doesnt move, with soul I could eventually drain it after a LOOoooong time. But that probably shouldn't be a deciding factor (since it's so easy to avoid it with Soul).

 

Leviathan is "cool" (HEHE) but the single target shark just bites (LOL). Ugh. If it weren't for that bite sucking, Leviathan would be a great way to fin (LOL)-ish the set. I do enjoy the mass aoe (and it felt like mass aoe) but the animation doesn't even match the shark it's just awkward... and SLOW.  Oy. 

 

 

I'm using Mu right now- will likely switch back to Soul at some point... 

 

[Omega-202]

1 hour ago, kiramon said:

I'd choose Mu or Soul, honestly.

 

Soul is very good. Very good. Mu is almost as good. Soul had more endurance problems for me, primarily because of Gloom vs Mu Lightning... With Mu my endurance doesnt move, with soul I could eventually drain it after a LOOoooong time. But that probably shouldn't be a deciding factor (since it's so easy to avoid it with Soul).

 

Leviathan is "cool" (HEHE) but the single target shark just bites (LOL). Ugh. If it weren't for that bite sucking, Leviathan would be a great way to fin (LOL)-ish the set. I do enjoy the mass aoe (and it felt like mass aoe) but the animation doesn't even match the shark it's just awkward... and SLOW.  Oy. 

 

 

I'm using Mu right now- will likely switch back to Soul at some point... 

 

I still agree with this.  I recently did some Test Server messing around and tried a Leviathan build and the lack of Mu Lightning for single targets hurt.  Also, in order to fit Arctic, I had to make sacrifices that hampered the capacity to exemplar down.  

 

I also tested Soul again and Gloom and Dark Obliteration are still amazing but the Widow pet still kept getting herself killed way more than any of the others.  The fact that she bolts off into melee range puts her in greater danger and usually takes her out of my buff auras, taking away ~40% defense in the blink of an eye.  

 

So the Mu / Soul trade is: better pet and solid attacks or better attacks and usually dead pet.  

Edited July 22, 2020 by Omega-202