If you could change the sentinel (or not) which would you choose?(Poll/Opinions)

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Frostweaver said:

But hey, you are the secret genius/king. So why don't you show us all how we are all so wrong for finding a great AT from something you KNOW is uselessly broken and worthless... after all, you are the only real intelligence here, the rest of us are all fools.

You know what, that's totally unnecessary. I haven't been rude, simply incredulous at statements that do not reflect what I have seen. Sorry if it came across as arrogant, but I don't think I have spoken with any more authority than anyone else here. Certainly I am not the only person, either in game or here in the forums, to feel that Sentinels need to do more damage.

[oldskool]

36 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I have to agree with Wavicle here, but I am probably ignorant of high end sentinels. 

 

How could you compare a built-up sentinel with a built-up Scrapper given the critical AtO's and more generous AoEs?

For single target a "high end" Sentinel needs to lean on epic pools.  This is no different from Scrappers/Stalkers that lean on Zapp or Moonbeam.  

Sentinel epics offer some high DPA melee attacks like Havoc Punch, Cremate, or Mind Probe.  On top this there are the ST Holds which are ripe for abuse just like what Blasters could, hypothetically, do.  

So many higher end DPS Sent builds almost all incorporate Dominate (multiple procs) + Mind Probe + 2-3 other primary powers (which ones depend on the set).  The triggering of Opportunity can be totally organic, i.e., Flares being an easy to use filler, or it could be deliberate.  

With pretty specific build strategies the damage can go well over 300 DPS but the conditions do require that the enemy be durable enough for it to matter.  Opportunity spans 15 second blocks of time with another entire period of building it back up.  High recharge can contribute to shortening that window.  

Almost any Sentinel is capable of 150~DPS even at pure range.  I've pushed over 200 DPS on Assault Rifle, and it is one of the worst sets of the bunch.  Water Blast's ST is also really low, but its AoE is pretty fantastic.  Anyway, even Water Blast can do 150+ DPS with proc damage involved.  

AoE-wise, it depends.  Sentinel AoE range is larger than a Scrapper.  Scrapper spheres are often 8ft.  Sentinel's can have 15ft and their cones are far wider.  Couple this with the two ATO bonuses to range increase and even narrow cones like Piercing Beam/Piercing Rounds start consistently hitting max targets (3).  This is FAR easier to pull off than Headsplitter but to be fair HS does a crap ton of damage.  

Early Scrapper builds in the Pylon thread have reports in the 180-250 DPS range.  It has been that over time with people experimenting with easy to get Incarnates plus more -resistance debuff IOs that DPS has inflated substantially.  The PPM changes too.  

Determining a real analysis from that thread is a bit of a headache.  If you want to see just how good summoned NPCs you can get that conclusion by knowing how much Summon Spiderlings is contributing.  Or if you want to know just how much damage a procced out Enflame can do on a stationary target, well there you go.  

Anyway, I think broad statements like Sentinels do more damage than Scrappers/Stalkers can be a bit much.  It kinda depends on the player build.  I know my own Stalkers do WAY more damage than my Sentinels do.  The reason for that is I take the same methodology to my Stalker builds.  My Dark Melee Stalker can easily do upwards of 900 damage on Midnight Grasp.  How do I know it is 900 damage when it is all DoT?  Because when it crits it does all of its damage right now.  I've had a few moments of Build-Up coming off cooldown 3 times in a row.  Its not uncommon to have it pop back to back.  2 times is pretty rare, but 3 times is like Christmas all month.  

So I think generally speaking the average Sentinel DPS ceiling is much lower, but that doesn't mean it can't up out some good numbers when built for it.  

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

It is true that some part of my argument is not based on numbers but on "feel".

I frequently team with a couple of RL friends. Recently I did that with me on a Water/Regen Sentinel and my friends on a Defender and a Controller.

It really felt like fights were not going fast enough, compared to when I played my Scrapper with the same team.

Not that people were dying as a result, but simply that the contribution of my Sentinel was less than that of my Scrapper.

As it *should* be. Sentinels can 100% avoid incoming melee damage which we all know is vastly higher than incoming ranged damage. They *should* be dishing out less damage than a scrapper.

 

But let's go back to the rest of the argument... are they bringing to a team enough to rationalize their existence as is? Yes. In exactly the same way that every other AT does. I can run a max diff ITF with NOTHING but blasters... or tanks... or veats.. or khels and get the job done.

 

NO AT is necessary, no AT is needed. If 8 folks playing even remotely well built characters can't get through the content, then sure, something is amiss. But that doesn't happen. When failure happens, it's because of improperly built characters or a chosen difficulty too high for the builds/skill available.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

As it *should* be. Sentinels can 100% avoid incoming melee damage which we all know is vastly higher than incoming ranged damage. They *should* be dishing out less damage than a scrapper.

 

But let's go back to the rest of the argument... are they bringing to a team enough to rationalize their existence as is? Yes. In exactly the same way that every other AT does. I can run a max diff ITF with NOTHING but blasters... or tanks... or veats.. or khels and get the job done.

 

NO AT is necessary, no AT is needed. If 8 folks playing even remotely well built characters can't get through the content, then sure, something is amiss. But that doesn't happen. When failure happens, it's because of improperly built characters or a chosen difficulty too high for the builds/skill available.

I'm just saying it was TOO MUCH less. I agree it should be less.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, oldskool said:

For single target a "high end" Sentinel needs to lean on epic pools.  This is no different from Scrappers/Stalkers that lean on Zapp or Moonbeam. 

Ummm... did you notice that my build has no APP/PPP and soloed a max diff ITF? Granted... I took forever but "need" is probably not the right word there.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Ummm... did you notice that my build has no APP/PPP and soloed a max diff ITF? Granted... I took forever but "need" is probably not the right word there.

I think he meant "need" in the sense of "if you want to push the upper limits of performance, this is what you need to do". Not as in "do this or you're just garbage".

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I'm just saying it was TOO MUCH less. I agree it should be less.

I get it. I hear ya. But you do admit that this is an awfully subjective viewpoint, right?

[oldskool]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Ummm... did you notice that my build has no APP/PPP and soloed a max diff ITF? Granted... I took forever but "need" is probably not the right word there.

Completing a max diff ITF and doing the most possible damage in the shortest window of time aren't the same metric.  

Dominate with multiple procs all by itself is a DPS increase.  Mind Probe is too for that matter.  

[oldskool]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I get it. I hear ya. But you do admit that this is an awfully subjective viewpoint, right?

Its not subjective to state that using Dominate + Mind Probe is an increase in DPS over any build that doesn't use it.  

Its observable truth backed by game mechanics and math. 

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I get it. I hear ya. But you do admit that this is an awfully subjective viewpoint, right?

I do, yes.

People used to say Blasters were fine, well in i24 they got buffed heavily. Were they fine before? I don't know, it's subjective.

[Frostweaver]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

You know what, that's totally unnecessary. I haven't been rude, simply incredulous at statements that do not reflect what I have seen. Sorry if it came across as arrogant, but I don't think I have spoken with any more authority than anyone else here. Certainly I am not the only person, either in game or here in the forums, to feel that Sentinels need to do more damage.

You know what? cherry picking statistics in order to prove an untrue 'fact' and then making broad and utterly false statements IS arrogant and pretty offensive.

Your anecdotes strongly imply that you seem to have a build problem. I have offered several times to look at your build and see if i can help you improve it. That was not meant as an insult, it was meant as a statement of understanding that building effective sentinels is FAR different from building blasters or scrappers.

Some people think that sentinels need more damage, some people think they need more HP, some think they need a better or more friendly inherent. Not having those though, does not make them inferior to other AT's, it simply means preferences.
Heck, I'd like Tanker's aggro caps doubled. I'd like Brute's base damage cranked up while their Damage cap drops below scrappers, with a much lowered fury contribution so that they do more damage 'at rest' but less damage 'when filled with reds'. I'd like scrappers to get an automatic crit when they click follow-up or build-up. I'd like stalkers sneak attack animation speed cut in half and controllers to get containment from fears, confuse, and slows greater than 50%.
But that does not make those AT's 'less useful in groups' or not have a role. And that doesn't mean that they need to have those buffs to be 'fixed'.

[oldskool]

Just to clarify something about epic holds + melee and doing damaging.  I think something may get lost in translation.  

In order for those factors to be relevant they also have to be combined with high recharge.  I've seen a few builds incorporating a melee because they were told it was high DPA and the general DPS wasn't much higher than some all ranged builds.  

There is a sort of convergence of effects that has to be met in order for the highest levels of damage to happen.  The epic hold with procs + a melee are a big part of that equation, but they aren't necessarily the only part.  

Also, I play only 1 Sentinel with this combination of things out of many.  I have many more pure range only builds that are still capable of 250~280 DPS.  That's still not as high as some Scrapper, Stalker, or Blasters, but it isn't a bad place to be either.  

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, oldskool said:

Its not subjective to state that using Dominate + Mind Probe is an increase in DPS over any build that doesn't use it.  

Its observable truth backed by game mechanics and math. 

Probably objectively true and a problem that should be corrected... like TW.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Frostweaver said:

You know what? cherry picking statistics in order to prove an untrue 'fact' and then making broad and utterly false statements IS arrogant and pretty offensive.

I haven't done that, so...

My statements about my sentinels performance have been about levelling. I don't have a lvl 50 Sentinel. In the mid 30s my Sentinel has most of her primary attacks, slotted like any other damage dealer, 1 acc, 3 dmg, maybe 1 end or rcg depending. She has no survivability issues worth complaining about.

If that's a bad build, in the mid 30s, then that is a problem with the AT. I shouldn't have to build vastly differently from any other damage dealer AT THAT LEVEL. Sure at 50 maybe I need to do different things with APPs and Procs and such, I'm open to that. But I'm talking about levelling. Procs and APPs cannot be necessary for fine performance while levelling.

[oldskool]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

Probably objectively true and a problem that should be corrected... like TW.

I'm of two minds on that.  Yes, it is a bit disheartening, but also it supports arrays of other builds.  I'd hate for the Epics to suddenly be less useful, but I'm also not super fond of their disproportionate strength.  That may sound like double think, but I am genuinely conflicted in how I feel about as I get other people's point of view. 

[Frostweaver]

6 minutes ago, oldskool said:

Its not subjective to state that using Dominate + Mind Probe is an increase in DPS over any build that doesn't use it.  

Its observable truth backed by game mechanics and math. 

Except in very specific circumstances this is true. Meaning there are two powersets where procced-out dominate and mind probe 'might' slightly slow your DPS. BR, because they do not spread or profit from disintegrate, and sonic, because they do not help stack -res. with the right builds 🙂
But hey, a rule is defined by it's exceptions, right?

 

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, oldskool said:

I'm of two minds on that.  Yes, it is a bit disheartening, but also it supports arrays of other builds.  I'd hate for the Epics to suddenly be less useful, but I'm also not super fond of their disproportionate strength.  That may sound like double think, but I am genuinely conflicted in how I feel about as I get other people's point of view. 

I'm in the boat that 1 epic shouldn't dominate the others in terms of effectiveness. The other epics need some love thrown their way.... and the Psy epic could probably be shaved down a scootch.

 

Combine that with more streamlined Opportunity that buffs all Sentinels a bit both mechanically and from QoL and a pass at their sets for offense and it should be gucci.

[Bill Z Bubba]

7 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I haven't done that, so...

My statements about my sentinels performance have been about levelling. I don't have a lvl 50 Sentinel. In the mid 30s my Sentinel has most of her primary attacks, slotted like any other damage dealer, 1 acc, 3 dmg, maybe 1 end or rcg depending. She has no survivability issues worth complaining about.

If that's a bad build, in the mid 30s, then that is a problem with the AT. I shouldn't have to build vastly differently from any other damage dealer AT THAT LEVEL. Sure at 50 maybe I need to do different things with APPs and Procs and such, I'm open to that. But I'm talking about levelling. Procs and APPs cannot be necessary for fine performance while levelling.

Oh boy. I got into a huge todo with someone else on this topic.

 

I would have to argue that any build on any AT that doesn't utilize the IOs available at any given level is self-gimping.

 

I do it with my concept characters, I do it with characters that I want to get a "natural" feel for... but if it's something that I know I'm gonna play all the way? It's gonna get built properly.

 

It's the exact same mindset used by the folks that tell me blasters are great because you can buy the defensive buff from the P2W vendor that grants mez protection.

 

Fine. If that's the case, then any argument that sides on the "the game is balanced around SOs" BS is just that.... BS. You have options to correct inefficiencies of any given AT. If it's true for blasters or defenders or anything else, it's true for sentinels.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Frostweaver]

7 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

If that's a bad build, in the mid 30s, then that is a problem with the AT. I shouldn't have to build vastly differently from any other damage dealer AT THAT LEVEL. Sure at 50 maybe I need to do different things with APPs and Procs and such, I'm open to that. But I'm talking about levelling. Procs and APPs cannot be necessary for fine performance while levelling.

Perception problem. Build problem.

You build a controller differently from a brute at level 30. You build a defender differently from a Tanker at level 30. Why on EARTH would you think you could build a sentinel just like every other AT? Regardless of level?

[oldskool]

16 minutes ago, Frostweaver said:

Perception problem. Build problem.

You build a controller differently from a brute at level 30. You build a defender differently from a Tanker at level 30. Why on EARTH would you think you could build a sentinel just like every other AT? Regardless of level?

Isn't it the point that other damage oriented builds will grab their attacks slot in whatever manner and generally feel like they contribute?  I get the perspective there even from both sides of the argument.  

Perception problem, once again, for sure but this perception problem is very likely going to cause real change to the AT.  

Edited June 11, 2020 by oldskool

[Frostweaver]

37 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I would have to argue that any build on any AT that doesn't utilize the IOs available at any given level is self-gimping.

 

I do it with my concept characters, I do it with characters that I want to get a "natural" feel for... but if it's something that I know I'm gonna play all the way? It's gonna get built properly.

 

It's the exact same mindset used by the folks that tell me blasters are great because you can buy the defensive buff from the P2W vendor that grants mez protection.

This! This this this this!
You start getting IO recipes at level 10!

If you don't use them, you are not an 'average player'. You are below average. well below average.

Maybe I should write a guide for leveling up sentinels that includes 'stupid stuff' like doing an ae mission for tickets, trading those tickets in for an orange salvage, and then selling that salvage for a half mil each. plus level-up exp. Or doing one of the dozens of short mission chains for merits.

achilles heel procs are CHEAP. you can buy 30 converters for 10 merits, and that's like 15 minutes or your time WHILE you are earning level up experience. YELLOW sets can be converted to orange sets with 2 converters. two level 25 'multi function' IO's give a better return than 2 SO's and they provide set bonuses (often lethal/smash resistance or recovery, which is HUGELY useful during levelling up)

Heck, you can get an IO completely FREE by doing the IO quest in steel canyon's university... plus exp. You can have multiple LOTG procs in your build at low levels, cranking up your recharge easily... and getting almost perma-hasten by level 30, no problems.

if you want to keep them, unslotters are SUPER cheap, OR you can use one of the FIVE respecs you get at level 50 to pull all of them out and use unslotters for the stuff that won't fit on your enhancement bar.

an SG base with up to 16 storage tables for IO's is completely free. Or you can put a couple of salvage storage racks in there to hold stuff like converters, orange salvage, unslotters, catalysts, and boosters...all completely free. Takes 5 minutes to build a 2 room base with all the tables as WELL as crafting tables and merit vendor.

A level 50... or even a level 30, that is not using a crapton of IO's is NOT an 'average' player. They are a player that has been taking shortcuts. Things like experience doublers, farms, powerlevels, or grinding the DFB and DIB conatantly... and even those provide some rather sweet rewards, recipes, and salvage for money and recipes.

That is not an 'average player'. You don't rebalance an AT around characters that have been powerlevelled but cannot afford to get a good build.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Frostweaver

[Frostweaver]

9 minutes ago, oldskool said:

Isn't it the point that other damage oriented builds will grab their attacks slot in whatever manner and generally feel like they contribute?  I get the perspective there even from both sides of the argument.  

Perception problem, once again, for sure but this perception problem is very likely going to cause real change to the AT.  

I am not sure what the definition of 'damage oriented build' is.
II mean, EVERY AT is damage-oriented, right? Except maybe those weird empathy defenders that don't slot their secondary and then get all butthurt when I kick them off my team?

[oldskool]

6 minutes ago, Frostweaver said:

I am not sure what the definition of 'damage oriented build' is.
II mean, EVERY AT is damage-oriented, right? Except maybe those weird empathy defenders that don't slot their secondary and then get all butthurt when I kick them off my team?

Maybe I should have said archtypes?  I totally get what you're saying.  This is all ties back to the perception problem.  

In the character generator when you're selecting what to play you'll see ratings.  A Scrapper clearly does more damage than a Controller.  So it stands to reason that when I build this hero it should be doing noticeable damage.  That is the role it has.  

You're counter point is that every AT needs things like accuracy, damage, and endurance.  Yet, I don't think that's the point.  I think the idea is more that the Sentinel is a primary damage dealer yet it doesn't live up to expectations of others in the same grouping.  I don't want to put words into @Wavicle's proverbial mouth, but I think that is gist of what they were getting at.  (I doubt I'm helping anyway 😬)

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, oldskool said:

You're counter point is that every AT needs things like accuracy, damage, and endurance.  Yet, I don't think that's the point.  I think the idea is more that the Sentinel is a primary damage dealer yet it doesn't live up to expectations of others in the same grouping.  I don't want to put words into @Wavicle's proverbial mouth, but I think that is gist of what they were getting at.  (I doubt I'm helping anyway 😬)

You're not putting words in my mouth. That is EXACTLY the issue.

Other ATs with damage primary either do a lot more damage (scrappers, stalkers, blasters, while levelling, I am happy to concede I don't know jack about Sentinel performance at 50), have aoe taunts (brutes, kheldians), or have significantly superior support powers (corruptors, masterminds, arachnos).

But I'm happy with the concept of a ranged damage dealer that has armor and a small but not worthless support tool. The balance just feels off a bit, while levelling at least.

[Frostweaver]

1 minute ago, oldskool said:

Maybe I should have said archtypes?  I totally get what you're saying.  This is all ties back to the perception problem.  

In the character generator when you're selecting what to play you'll see ratings.  A Scrapper clearly does more damage than a Controller.  So it stands to reason that when I build this hero it should be doing noticeable damage.  That is the role it has.  

You're counter point is that every AT needs things like accuracy, damage, and endurance.  Yet, I don't think that's the point.  I think the idea is more that the Sentinel is a primary damage dealer yet it doesn't live up to expectations of others in the same grouping.  I don't want to put words into @Wavicle's proverbial mouth, but I think that is gist of what they were getting at.  (I doubt I'm helping anyway 😬)

I will admit, I think I have skipped that screen every single time I build a new character, so I wasn't aware that it had them lumped in with Blasters. I consider sentinels a support/damage hybrid rather than a primary damage dealer, because of how easily they can blow off damage without just directly soaking it like a tanker, and the nice damage buffs and focus on secondary effects of powersets.

Then again, I also don't play fire sentinels. to be completely fair, I consider fire sentinels to be exactly the same kind of AT-benders as fire armor scrankers, dark deftrollers, illusion controllerminds, Heavy Blappers, banestalkers, humanikhelds, and the likes.


Maybe the question should not be 'should we buff sentinel damage', maybe the question is, 'should we buff sentinel secondary effects'? I mean, all things concerned, they don't have defender secondaries, wouldn't buffing them to at least corrupter-level secondary effects make their hybrid role much more obvious, and help fix the perception problem?