Control Hybrid Radial Mez Magnitude

[dtj714]

Can anyone confirm the magnitude of the mez(zes) that are applied with the radial version of the control hybrid incarnate?  And if multiple are indicated (the higher tiers), how does that work?  Does each have a chance to be applied, so you could get both, or does the 2nd or 3rd only apply if an effect of the 1st (and 2nd) are already in effect from a separate power?

 

Seems like a cool hybrid, but also seems to be the most confusing in how it functions. Any clarification appreciated!

[Psyonico]

it's +1 mag across the board.

[dtj714]

22 hours ago, Psyonico said:

it's +1 mag across the board.

Just to confirm, are you talking about the status effect that is applied by the radial version, and not the increase to status effect that is applied by the core versions?  Since you say “+1” instead of just “1” it makes me wonder (the core version increase is clearly +1). 
 

And, in addition to the mag of the effects applied by the radial version, what is the duration?

Edited March 26, 2020 by dtj714
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[Psyonico]

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hybrid_Slot_Abilities

 

The Control tree grants most powers a chance to trigger an effect. All powers can activate the chance to "damage to controlled enemies". All mez powers can activate the "+1 magnitude". All damaging powers can activate the "chance to mez".

Enemies qualify as "controlled" if under the effect of: confuse, fear, hold, immobilize, sleep, stun

 

Is this what you are looking for?

[dtj714]

I’m talking about the last sentence in the description, and the column on the table that says “chance to mez/type”. The core versions of this hybrid give control powers a chance to add +1 magnitude, and all powers a chance to damage controlled enemies.  The radial versions give damaging powers a chance to apply one or more controlling effects.  At least that’s what seems clear from the table. 
 

What I’m asking is, for the control effects applied by the radial version, what is their magnitude, how they apply/stack, and what is their duration if applied?  Even the detailed in-game power detail window does not show this information. 

Edited March 26, 2020 by dtj714
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[Dr Causality]

Hoping someone else comes along to answer, but from memory the Immob and Fear are mag2.    Once something is already Immob and Feared, then it gets a Mag5 Stun.  

 

What I never tested was whether any of this can stack with itself?      In another words is it ever possible to stack 2 or more Immob, 2 or more fears etc.    If not then, you need to add Immob or Fear from another source to ever be able make use of the Stun (for bosses and Lts...).

 

What I can tell you, is it was entirely unimpressive in the short tests did on Beta.    I imagined I would stunning critters left and right, but just didn't work that way.    I would definitely do your own testing on Beta before using Incarnate salvage.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Dr Causality

[Hagis]

I have it at T4 (radial) on my Mace tanker. I do mostly soloing, and it helps with my ability to survive by slowing down the amount of damage coming in. It's not hard to stack through repeated attacks, and they do stack from the same source. Can easily Fear bosses, and have seen it work on AVs once the purple triangles drop. Duration is dependent on whether or not the enemy mob has resistance or not, but generally it "feels" like somewhere in the 6-10 second range.

 

At T4, you have a 70% change to Fear and a 70% chance to Immobilize. 0.70 x 0.70 = 0.49 = 49%. So on a given AOE attack, 70% of the mobs will Fear, 70% will Immobilize, and 49% will Fear, Immobilize, and Stun. (Assuming no mez protection, of course.) I will admit that I don't see the stun a whole lot, but it can be hard to see the visual "swirly head" fx for that, and if they're immobilized, then they're not able to stagger around, which is the other main visual indicator.

 

EDIT:

FWIW, I really like it. Turns me into a super durable petless Controller for two minutes at a whack. What I imagine a Dark Armor tanker to be like. It's not fast, so if you are on a steamroll team, then you might not see a lot of benefit from this ability, but on a smaller team or soloing (or if you dual box) then it is pretty useful IMO. It "feels" powerful. I can only imagine that it would be loads of fun if you had a damage aura and could make mobs appear to quake in their boots just by being in their midst.

 

EDIT 2:

Actually, my math might be wrong. Thought about it, and there are a couple of scenarios that might come into play, and I would need to do some testing instead of rampant speculation.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2020 by Hagis
Detective Columbo moment.

[Psyonico]

13 minutes ago, Hagis said:

At T4, you have a 70% change to Fear and a 70% chance to Immobilize. 0.70 x 0.70 = 0.49 = 49%. So on a given AOE attack, 70% of the mobs will Fear, 70% will Immobilize, and 49% will Fear, Immobilize, and Stun. (Assuming no mez protection, of course.) I will admit that I don't see the stun a whole lot, but it can be hard to see the visual "swirly head" fx for that, and if they're immobilized, then they're not able to stagger around, which is the other main visual indicator.

 

the mobs have to already be feared and immobilized for the stun to take effect, which is why you aren't seeing the stun very much.

[Coyote]

Wait, it's 70% chance per attack? Does this transfer to pet attacks? Because if so, then someone with a lot of pets like a Robot MM can get very consistent Immobilize results to keep pets in burn patches. Why don't I read about it on the MM forum, because it doesn't transfer to pets?

[Drazah Krad]

4 hours ago, Coyote said:

Wait, it's 70% chance per attack? Does this transfer to pet attacks? Because if so, then someone with a lot of pets like a Robot MM can get very consistent Immobilize results to keep pets in burn patches. Why don't I read about it on the MM forum, because it doesn't transfer to pets?

Might have to look but I could have sworn my pets had the icon on them. 

[dtj714]

9 hours ago, Psyonico said:

 

the mobs have to already be feared and immobilized for the stun to take effect, which is why you aren't seeing the stun very much.

Hence my interest in the specifics of its operation. Basically, I was thinking of using this on my WS in combination with Spiritual alpha and Gravitic interface. With he inherent slow/-recharge on a WS’s attacks, this would potentially seem like a totally debilitating setup, making 4x8 farming and whatnot very doable even without a full purple build. 

[Major_Decoy]

6 minutes ago, dtj714 said:

Hence my interest in the specifics of its operation. Basically, I was thinking of using this on my WS in combination with Spiritual alpha and Gravitic interface. With he inherent slow/-recharge on a WS’s attacks, this would potentially seem like a totally debilitating setup, making 4x8 farming and whatnot very doable even without a full purple build. 

Yes, it's the route I'm building for on my Dark Armour tank.

[SurfD]

On 5/7/2020 at 10:44 AM, Coyote said:

Wait, it's 70% chance per attack? Does this transfer to pet attacks? Because if so, then someone with a lot of pets like a Robot MM can get very consistent Immobilize results to keep pets in burn patches. Why don't I read about it on the MM forum, because it doesn't transfer to pets?

I recall seeing a thread recently where someone did a fairly extensive amount of testing and concluded that every Hybrid skill except the Support one was basically either completely or partially non functional on pet classes.   Basically the only way your pets ever benefitted from the ability was if you deliberately summoned them AFTER activating the skill to ensure the buff was active, and even then the chance of it sticking was spotty.

 

Edit: Found the thread

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by SurfD

[Coyote]

12 hours ago, SurfD said:

Basically the only way your pets ever benefitted from the ability was if you deliberately summoned them AFTER activating the skill to ensure the buff was active, and even then the chance of it sticking was spotty.

 

Thanks. Hm, that might actually work for me. With an Illusion/Storm, keeping AVs from running is hard, but I do have a TON of summonables who are summoned regularly...

3 decoys, 2 Tornados, 3 Storms, 1 Enflame patch, 2 Rains... the Phantasm may get resummoned since it likes to suicide, and a Mu Guardian gets resummoned every 4 minutes.

So that's a lot of pets, and many of them WOULD be resummoned after bringing up the Hybrid toggle. So when it's running, for a while after, it may be possible to put out enough Immobilize mag to stop AVs from fleeing. Could be worth a try, even 90 seconds out of 4 minutes would be an improvement against some track stars.

[Cutter]

On 5/7/2020 at 5:58 PM, Major_Decoy said:

Yes, it's the route I'm building for on my Dark Armour tank.

Same here. Looking at Spectral Core interface tho for the immob proc (along with the RazDaz immob proc in Oppressive Gloom), as Dark/Elec has no native immob in its powers, and for now I'm choosing additional defense over an epic immob. That last part might change when I get up there and actually see what the build needs in play!

[Psyonico]

 

56 minutes ago, Cutter said:

Same here. Looking at Spectral Core interface tho for the immob proc (along with the RazDaz immob proc in Oppressive Gloom), as Dark/Elec has no native immob in its powers, and for now I'm choosing additional defense over an epic immob. That last part might change when I get up there and actually see what the build needs in play!

Shadow Cloak has Immob protection.

[Cutter]

6 hours ago, Psyonico said:

 

Shadow Cloak has Immob protection.

I think you misunderstood - I'm adding procs to immobilize enemies to better take advantage of Radial's fear+immob=stun. I've got plenty of immob protection in the build 🙂

[Nayeh]

3 hours ago, Cutter said:

I think you misunderstood - I'm adding procs to immobilize enemies to better take advantage of Radial's fear+immob=stun. I've got plenty of immob protection in the build 🙂

I picked up Spectral on my Warshade for the similar reasons you presented and to keep disoriented/feared monsters from wandering too far.

 

Unfortunately, NOT ONCE, did this Immobilize Proc. I think it's broken, Cutter. 😞

Edited May 12, 2020 by Nayeh

[Cutter]

21 minutes ago, Nayeh said:

I picked up Spectral on my Warshade for the similar reasons you presented and to keep disoriented/feared monsters from wandering too far.

 

Unfortunately, NOT ONCE, did this Immobilize Proc. I think it's broken, Cutter. 😞

/sadface

[Dr Causality]

On 5/7/2020 at 7:44 AM, Coyote said:

Wait, it's 70% chance per attack? Does this transfer to pet attacks? Because if so, then someone with a lot of pets like a Robot MM can get very consistent Immobilize results to keep pets in burn patches. Why don't I read about it on the MM forum, because it doesn't transfer to pets?

 

It warrants more thorough testing.    BUT what I can tell you is when I briefly tested a build on beta months ago, it was so completely underwhelming that it drained the will to thoroughly test completely out of me.   Beta had been down for a while, so when I finally got to test.......I excitedly ran two missions, cried a little inside, logged out and never looked at that character again. 

 

---

 

Back story:   Many many months ago this was my sneaky plan to make a sturdy Ninja MM.    My idea being that Ninja's frailty wouldn't be an issue against Mobs that were stunned and couldn't fight back.   (Ninjas seemed like an optimal choice because the Fistful of Arrows attack you'd always skip on min/max builds is a 8s cooldown, fast 1.32s animation aoe cone attack.  So I thought would be perfect for stacking the Mezzes.) 

 

---

 

More thorough actual testing could still reveal something interesting though.   One possibility as to why my build performed so abysmally is that 70% proc chances might be impacted by MRT and AreaMod from the PPM formulas, meaning the low cooldowns and Recharge Enhancements I used may have dropped my proc chances.  If so, other powers and slotting might achieve better results. 

 

But even then when you break it down Control Radial is just not as impressive as it first seems on paper.   It's much much more difficult to stack than you'd think.    Immob and Fear Mezz Durations are Mag2 and last for 10s.    Only works on powers that do damage. 

 

---

 

Considerations & Questions to test:

 

• Do pets and summons apply the Radial procs?    Depending on how stacking works, this could make a massive difference to pets builds since they'd be able to stack lots of procs....
  •  
• Do additional Radial procs stack mag of it's mezzes or do they simply refresh the duration?   Seems like from the description that it should stack 5 times.   This makes a very big difference since it would determine how possible it was to ever stun Lts and Bosses.  
• Assuming it does stack, does it continue applying and stacking Immob, even when it's applying it's next mezz effect like Fear?     And likewise to enemies already Immob and Feared, do procs stack more Mag in addition to the Mag5 Stun.   I suspect procs only apply a single of the Mezzes at a time, but needs to be tested.
  • This makes a massive difference, since if Radial procs only applies one of their 3 mezzes, then immobilize / Fear will wear off, meaning you won't be able to  chain stun.   (Unless you have outside sources of Immob and Fear...)  
• Is the Radial 70% proc chance impacted by PPM calculations like MRT and AreaMod?
• Does Radial Control trigger at the beginning or end of the attack power?
  • This is surprisingly important to stacking for two reasons:
    1. You only have 10s of duration to stack, so if it triggers at the begging then your attack animation of your first attack will count against your 10s Immob duration.  With many aoe powers have 2 or 3s or longer animations this would effectively mean you'd only have 7 to 8s of Immob left for stacking.
    2. If  Radial triggers at the end, then depending how it checks for existing mezzes determines it's effect might stack ontop of mezzes from the attack power itself.   Mean for instance that an attack power with it's own Immob would let radial stack a Mag2 Fear on the very first attack!   I suspect it does not work this way.   But it would be best to know...
• Optimal use of Radial Control would be a chain of AOE attacks that let you maintain perma control on entire mobs.   Best even best or better case scenarios for stacking that would still be challenging.  For instance assuming ideal stacking, with aoe powers at have 2.x second animation time.  Adjusting for 95% Tohit:  
  1. Attack #1: is 66.5% enemies Mag2 Immob.  
  2. #2 is 44% Lts/Bosses Mag 4 Immob and 44% Minions Mag2 Feared.   But duration of the immob stack is probably at best 7s remaining due to animation time.  
  3. Attack #3 is just 29.5% Lts/bosses Mag2 Feared and 41.8% minions Mag5 Stunned.   The immobilize stack duration is down another 2-3s, so probably between 4 or 5s remaining.  
  4. Attack #4 will stack Mag4 Fear on only 19.6% of Lts/Bosses and the Immob duration is likely down to around 2s remaining.  
  5. **Assuming your Immob hasn't worn off yet, then Attack #5 will Stun 18.6% of the Lts/Bosses.   (It will also stun a portion of the minions that weren't already stunned.)
     1. **Assuming 2s animations times your initial Mag2 immobilize will wear off at the end of this attack.
     2. **But assuming 3s animations and/or less than perfect gapless chaining of attacks, the Immob from attack#1 will have already worn off prior to Attack #5, meaning you may not get the stun at all....

If you start thinking through these questions, you can see there are many ways that Radial Control procs could be implemented that would make it mostly ineffectual in actual game impact. 

 

But still seems worth testing since there might be some very interesting angles to exploit, err I mean leverage.   But application will be building around sets that have their own ways to Immob and Fear,  making it easier to get Stun procs...    If it works on pets Crabs might be optimal since they have options for max # of pets, plus access to damaging powers that do Fear and Immob....

 

I could probably be convinced to help with testing.