Discussion: Disabling XP No Longer Increases Influence

[SwitchFade]

10 hours ago, Racist Dolphin said:

> Influence gain can no longer be increased by disabling XP

 

oh boy more reason to never come back to this game

Can I have your stuff?

[Lockpick]

7 minutes ago, Crimsonpyre said:

I genuinely don't understand how people using the influence bonus for normal play destroys the market. Sure you can't have people use an exploit to make millions in minutes, but that could have been fixed without punishing everyone else.

 

So really Jimmy, is people using this feature as intended really creating too much influence?

 

In a way, I tend to agree with this comment.  It might have been a good idea to fix the exploit and then the abuse of the mechanic and then spend some time analyzing the impact on the economy.  If it still wasn't where they wanted they could make further adjustment later.  That being said, this is a volunteer team with limited resources.  I expect they probably discussed all the scenarios and the difficulty of the implementation and decided that the easiest / fastest path that was best for the overall game was to do what they did.  This team does not strike me as a team that make arbitrary decisions, so I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt when they make decisions that may be unpopular with certain segments of the population.

 

32 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

It genuinely didn't occur to me that it could be anything else.  But if it is serious I'm actually impressed that someone who discovered an exploit that let them make one hundred times the base rate of inf gain would have the cojones to show up on the forum to complain bitterly to the devs that they couldn't do that any more.

 

I mentioned up thread that I took a sub-optimal farming build and sub-optimal farming player (me) and made $400K inf per minute which would give me $12M inf in 30 minutes.  Anybody crying doom and gloom is not being honest.  They were used to creating $2M inf/min using an exploit or abusing a mechanic and should have known that type of inf gain was extreme compared to the standard content.

 

By the way, I am still seeing quite a few farmers in AE, so it doesn''t look like it killed the farming community by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, Crimsonpyre said:

Based on all the snarky responses, I see that some people still don't understand that this change has a larger negative impact on casual players than anyone else. Farmers are going to farm and marketeers continue to make billions, but the casual player using the no experience influence bonus is going to kill the economy.  

Incorrect, this will actually help casuals as it will drive down the cost of a basket of goods.

 

Please read relevant posts in this thread about economics, normal goods vs inferior, substitute goods, factors of supply and demand, surplus, income disparity, inflation, income concentration, price ceilings, determinates of supply and demand, time value of money, ROI, rate of exchange, etc... That I have discussed multiple times.

 

Or you can save yourself some time and trust me when I say again, for the umpteenth time (not to you, to everyone posting thing such as this)...

 

Economics doesn't work that way.

[SwitchFade]

5 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

 

In a way, I tend to agree with this comment.  It might have been a good idea to fix the exploit and then the abuse of the mechanic and then spend some time analyzing the impact on the economy.  If it still wasn't where they wanted they could make further adjustment later.  That being said, this is a volunteer team with limited resources.  I expect they probably discussed all the scenarios and the difficulty of the implementation and decided that the easiest / fastest path that was best for the overall game was to do what they did.  This team does not strike me as a team that make arbitrary decisions, so I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt when they make decisions that may be unpopular with certain segments of the population.

 

 

I mentioned up thread that I took a sub-optimal farming build and sub-optimal farming player (me) and made $400K inf per minute which would give me $12M inf in 30 minutes.  Anybody crying doom and gloom is not being honest.  They were used to creating $2M inf/min using an exploit or abusing a mechanic and should have known that type of inf gain was extreme compared to the standard content.

 

By the way, I am still seeing quite a few farmers in AE, so it doesn''t look like it killed the farming community by any stretch of the imagination.

 

This team actually put a great deal of thought into shutting off the valve that is already causing rampant inflation, vis a vi double INF and above.

 

The economy on live was eventually broken by inflation, which would happen here too. This needed change and several other levers of economic balancing go hand in hand, no single lever can create equity.

 

Which is evidence that this was well thought out.

[SwitchFade]

28 minutes ago, Crimsonpyre said:

I genuinely don't understand how people using the influence bonus for normal play destroys the market. Sure you can't have people use an exploit to make millions in minutes, but that could have been fixed without punishing everyone else.

 

So really Jimmy, is people using this feature as intended really creating too much influence?

Pease read relevant posts in this thread about economics, normal goods vs inferior, substitute goods, factors of supply and demand, surplus, income disparity, inflation, income concentration, price ceilings, determinates of supply and demand, time value of money, ROI, rate of exchange, etc... That I have discussed multiple times.

 

Or you can save yourself some time and trust me when I say that this, along with several other levers of economic balancing are very necessary.

[SwitchFade]

42 minutes ago, Crimsonpyre said:

By all means fix the exploit, but they didn't need to throw the baby out with the bath water. Again casual players using the no experience influence bonus is not killing the economy.  

Incorrect. Please see my three posts above this, and the 20 others in this thread for facts as to why.

 

As for casual play, you can run Yin TF in 22 minutes and get, 20 merits?

 

20x3=60 converters, sell them...

 

60x85k=5 million INF

 

And that's just one example. In an hour of casual play, a casual can earn 20-30 million inf by doing normal content.

[Lodestar_1977]

On 3/31/2020 at 5:02 PM, Kalidor187 said:

I'm confused what the inf nerf is trying to achieve, though. With all cosmetic items unlocked at creation, free base building, and no money sinks to spend your influence on, what in the game's economy are we trying to fix? Ease of income allows ease of creating and equipping alts. Creating alts and trying new play styles is what retains players. I interpret this change as "you now need to grind more." Why?

I was casually and slowly reading this thread with this in mind as I read. So, I am not surprised this has already been said. Although I am surprised in such clear and concise words on the 4th page or so. Maybe a statement on the accepted way of Homecoming.

 

Allow me to put across a different view from that of a new returning player, and one who played in the early days. I have returned after I played regularly from the start of I4 to I7. I saw nerfs galore, and I was very much reminded of the Enhancement Diversification nerf and it's awful implementation. This feels very much the same to me, in that it is not the nerf itself as the implementation after such a long time.

 

But as you point out, there are added layers here. Not only has this come in after several months, when people got used to something. But, it seems to have come from removing something that has been there since the beginning of the game, to the close. Paragon and Cryptic before them had no reason in all that time to change it. But Homecoming team, literally from day one, cut out so many inf sinks. I know Paragon reduced them over time.

 

But, as a player I remember when we had to work hard for things that you describe. (Right back when I had to travel barefoot in the snow uphill both ways!) Costumes cost money, there were slots that had to be earned, costume items that had to be earned, and all used inf. Back then we only started having bases. Which were not free and needed upkeep. We already had inf sinks as it was.

 

I was gobsmacked to enter this game on Homecoming servers, and see more costume lots than I had to open every few levels, and capes and auras be there from day one. All free to change before level 10? Then I hear about free bases?

 

Now months on after the removal of inf sinks this inf earn decrease happens. I can not help but feel like the two are closely related. I believe too much was given away free. Mind you. I can only accept it is a done deal now. But, I resonate with the posts so far that talk about how this impacts new players to the server.

[SwitchFade]

12 minutes ago, Lodestar_1977 said:

I was casually and slowly reading this thread with this in mind as I read. So, I am not surprised this has already been said. Although I am surprised in such clear and concise words on the 4th page or so. Maybe a statement on the accepted way of Homecoming.

 

Allow me to put across a different view from that of a new returning player, and one who played in the early days. I have returned after I played regularly from the start of I4 to I7. I saw nerfs galore, and I was very much reminded of the Enhancement Diversification nerf and it's awful implementation. This feels very much the same to me, in that it is not the nerf itself as the implementation after such a long time.

 

But as you point out, there are added layers here. Not only has this come in after several months, when people got used to something. But, it seems to have come from removing something that has been there since the beginning of the game, to the close. Paragon and Cryptic before them had no reason in all that time to change it. But Homecoming team, literally from day one, cut out so many inf sinks. I know Paragon reduced them over time.

 

But, as a player I remember when we had to work hard for things that you describe. (Right back when I had to travel barefoot in the snow uphill both ways!) Costumes cost money, there were slots that had to be earned, costume items that had to be earned, and all used inf. Back then we only started having bases. Which were not free and needed upkeep. We already had inf sinks as it was.

 

I was gobsmacked to enter this game on Homecoming servers, and see more costume lots than I had to open every few levels, and capes and auras be there from day one. All free to change before level 10? Then I hear about free bases?

 

Now months on after the removal of inf sinks this inf earn decrease happens. I can not help but feel like the two are closely related. I believe too much was given away free. Mind you. I can only accept it is a done deal now. But, I resonate with the posts so far that talk about how this impacts new players to the server.

If you scan through and look for my many posts about the functions of economics {as well as many others' posts about the same functions) and why this change is positive, it will help with understanding.

 

This change will help increase buying.

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, Murcielago said:

I really like this implementation and I know I speak for the minority but I think the devs should take this one step further and put a set limit on how many times you can convert an enhancement. Increase scarcity a little bit.

If they go with this idea, I’ll tank the pitchforks while you make a run for it.

[Lodestar_1977]

Just now, SwitchFade said:

If you scan through and look for my many posts about the functions of economics {as well as many others' posts about the same functions) and why this change is positive, it will help with understanding.

 

This change will help increase buying.

Maybe so. But, one thing I did a lot was exemplar with teams and just regular play. I was not, nor am attracted to farming. So, for me that really is a cramp on my playstyle, time and income. It won;t affect things like just soling and turning xp off. Or I don't think so.

 

Also that does not counter that I believe removing the inf sinks in the first place would have led to this.

[SwitchFade]

Just now, Lodestar_1977 said:

Maybe so. But, one thing I did a lot was exemplar with teams and just regular play. I was not, nor am attracted to farming. So, for me that really is a cramp on my playstyle, time and income. It won;t affect things like just soling and turning xp off. Or I don't think so.

 

Also that does not counter that I believe removing the inf sinks in the first place would have led to this.

I feel you.

 

What you may have missed, had you not read the explenations, is that your personal reduction in income will be moot, due to the reduction in the cost of a basket of goods.

 

Example: you made 100 an hour before and a good cost 100. Now, you make 70 an hour and the good cost is 60.

 

Your buying power went up, the value of each unit of currency increased. You can read all the posts explaining why (the thread is growing due to mergers, this will take time) or you can trust me, you will be able to buy more.

[SwitchFade]

4 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

If they go with this idea, I’ll tank the pitchforks while you make a run for it.

Not sure you could tank the untyped, non-positional eRage coming at you.

 

Unless, ForumRegen?

[Lodestar_1977]

1 minute ago, SwitchFade said:

I feel you.

 

What you may have missed, had you not read the explenations, is that your personal reduction in income will be moot, due to the reduction in the cost of a basket of goods.

 

Example: you made 100 an hour before and a good cost 100. Now, you make 70 an hour and the good cost is 60.

 

Your buying power went up, the value of each unit of currency increased. You can read all the posts explaining why (the thread is growing due to mergers, this will take time) or you can trust me, you will be able to buy more.

We shall see. I did see that being touched on. And thanks for the concise summary. I did not realise the thread was 30 something pages long and counting. I think I may have bit off more than I can chew here.

[Lockpick]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

Incorrect. Please see my three posts above this, and the 20 others in this thread for facts as to why.

 

As for casual play, you can run Yin TF in 22 minutes and get, 20 merits?

 

20x3=60 converters, sell them...

 

60x85k=5 million INF

 

And that's just one example. In an hour of casual play, a casual can earn 20-30 million inf by doing normal content.

 

You beat me to it.

 

Yin: 21:04

Starting Inf: 30,218,882

Ending Inf: 31,376,354

Gain: 1,157, 472

Inf/Sec: 915.72

Inf/Min: 54,943.29

Merits: 20

Converters: 60

Converters AH: 4,860,000

Gain: 6,017,472 (Inf for the TF and merits, does not include drops as I did not empty my inventory prior to starting)

Inf/Sec: 4,760.66

Inf/Min: 285,639.49 (much less than the $400K/min for a sub-optimal farmer using AE# 125)

 

Based on these numbers I can get a PVP IO in 2 runs (40 minutes) or a Purple IO in 4 runs (1 hour and 20 minutes).  This is not including drops, so when adding drops the time will reduce.  I don't think 30 to 40 minutes time investment for a PVP IO or an hour for a purple IO is unreasonable.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Lockpick
Adding verbiage

[Dazl]

41 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Incorrect. Please see my three posts above this, and the 20 others in this thread for facts as to why.

 

As for casual play, you can run Yin TF in 22 minutes and get, 20 merits?

 

20x3=60 converters, sell them...

 

60x85k=5 million INF

 

And that's just one example. In an hour of casual play, a casual can earn 20-30 million inf by doing normal content.

Merits are just another form of influence, so how is this different than running door missions with the experience bonus on?

 

I have great respect and appreciation for the Homecoming team for bringing this game we all love back. They have done a great job of updating and running the game. For an all volunteer team it's amazing.

 

This change doesn't effect me since I never really used it much. As a regular Hami raider I have tons of merits and just recently created a farmer, which I don't really enjoy, but it is handy for leveling alts and making a little more influence.

 

This monster thread is full of posts about how this effects farmers and marketeers, and theoretical economical assumptions that may or may not be true. In all of that there didn't seem to be much discussion on how normal players were affected by this and that was what I was trying to bring to this debate.

 

I realize the Homecoming team is working with limited resources and are trying to make decisions they feel are best for the game's health. I just hope the devs will give this point some further consideration.    

[Nemesis]

On 3/31/2020 at 9:37 AM, Jimmy said:

Simply using a level 49 map itself was not an exploit, but was an abuse of the system, which is why it was eventually going to be removed.

 

The exploit was the use of Patrol XP with this option turned on - your influence income increased dramatically without consuming the Patrol XP - and I have no doubt that many players were making use of this without being aware at all. Just fixing that alone would've resulted in a big income drop for farmers, but as this feature was simply not healthy for the game we opted to remove it.

 

Again, you need to consider this change in the context of it impacting everyone. Your income may have dropped, but so has the overall input of influence into the economy. Those who were not making use of this exploit (unwittingly or not) will not actually experience any change in their buying power long-term.

This is not quite correct. Not to be contrary.

Example. I have no patrol exp buy have XP earning turned off to make more influence. I am still now making normal influence and again earning xp. I've lost roughly 50% of my earned influence without having patrol xp. efectively you cut my buying power by 50% as I am no longer earning that influence, even without utilizing the exploit.

It seems it would have been far easier to turn off patrol exp once someone turns 50..

 

On a related note, does this change now mean your going to undo the nerf implemented to the architect system now that there is literally no reason not to have full exp on mobs there?

[Rathulfr]

2 minutes ago, Nemesis said:

This is not quite correct. Not to be contrary.

Example. I have no patrol exp buy have XP earning turned off to make more influence. I am still now making normal influence and again earning xp. I've lost roughly 50% of my earned influence without having patrol xp. efectively you cut my buying power by 50% as I am no longer earning that influence, even without utilizing the exploit.

It seems it would have been far easier to turn off patrol exp once someone turns 50..

 

On a related note, does this change now mean your going to undo the nerf implemented to the architect system now that there is literally no reason not to have full exp on mobs there?

Actually, while they might have decreased the Inf generated by 50%, by reducing the amount of currency everywhere, they've actually increased the value of that Inf.  The net effect is that your buying power is actually unchanged, especially as time goes forward and the effects of the change are allowed to settle across the entire playerbase/economy.

 

[Grouchybeast]

2 hours ago, Lockpick said:

 

By the way, I am still seeing quite a few farmers in AE, so it doesn''t look like it killed the farming community by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Really?  I am so shocked.  This is my shocked face.  😲

 

1 hour ago, Lodestar_1977 said:

I was gobsmacked to enter this game on Homecoming servers, and see more costume lots than I had to open every few levels, and capes and auras be there from day one. All free to change before level 10? Then I hear about free bases?

 

Now months on after the removal of inf sinks this inf earn decrease happens. I can not help but feel like the two are closely related. I believe too much was given away free. Mind you. I can only accept it is a done deal now. But, I resonate with the posts so far that talk about how this impacts new players to the server.

The have also added new inf sinks.  The P2W vendor sells for inf items that were part of the paragon market/VIP system.  You can buy the paragon market packs (Winter, Heroes & Villlains, Rogues and Vigilante) from the AH, which adds IO supply and sinks inf at the same time.  You can even buy Merits with inf, which isn't so relevant now but which means that at the moment, all IOS are capped at a price of 100 million inf, and when (if) we hit those kinds of prices, will directly take inf out of the economy. 

[Grouchybeast]

45 minutes ago, Crimsonpyre said:

 

This monster thread is full of posts about how this effects farmers and marketeers, and theoretical economical assumptions that may or may not be true. In all of that there didn't seem to be much discussion on how normal players were affected by this and that was what I was trying to bring to this debate.

 

I wasn't being facetious when I asked this before, I'm genuinely curious:  how do you envisage this 'normal player' playing the game and how do you think this change will negatively affect it?  Honestly, someone who levels their characters at a steady pace playing story arcs and TFs, and ends up with a solid build at 50 is not going to be particularly impacted by these changes.  That's what I think of when I imagine some hypothetical 'normal play style'.

[Rathulfr]

1 minute ago, Grouchybeast said:

I wasn't being facetious when I asked this before, I'm genuinely curious:  how do you envisage this 'normal player' playing the game and how do you think this change will negatively affect it?  Honestly, someone who levels their characters at a steady pace playing story arcs and TFs, and ends up with a solid build at 50 is not going to be particularly impacted by these changes.  That's what I think of when I imagine some hypothetical 'normal play style'.

I expect that the "normal player" will feel the effects in their pocket book, as the reduced inflation will increase the value of their Inf.

 

[Nemesis]

Influence and CoH 

The developers are attempting to fix a influence “gap” and close and exploit which allowed some players to generate an insane amount of influence.

On the surface this seems logical and I honestly get it. But lets be honest, this situation is a bed of their own making.

Let me spell it out.

First, you implemented the P2W vender. On is surface a influence sink, but actually it part of your problem.

Your main issue is with DFB, P2W vender, patrol exp and AE farming, you have allowed players to level characters way to fast. Players power level their characters constantly and don’t worry about buying or earning enhancement, inspirations or salvage. Why should they? They have 50’s that can more than easily run a few missions, TF or even AE farms and have them outfitted with lv 50 IO’s in minutes.

So of course, they are going to look for the quickest way to earn influence in the shortest amount of time. I hate to break it to you guys, this isn’t going to change short of you turning off influence from mobs and only assigning mission completion rewards. All your currently doing now, is forcing those farmers to make multiple account to now go into a mission and have that same lv 50 toon, which was once farming, to now go into the same farm mission with 7 other alts and have all of them get influence. Or some other way which I can’t think of.

And its all going to be for the exact same reasons, to outfit those lv 50’s which they created 3 days ago.
Maybe if you guys looked at the core problem causing all your influence issue and not the symptoms of the problem you might get it under control.
Here is a couple other issues which also contributed to where we are now.
Stocking of the market with salvage: The market of salvage no longer go with supply and demand except with recipes and IOs. I personally no longer care much about salavage except “maybe” orange ones. Why should I? I can easily spend the measly 500,000 to get any orange I need and probably turn around if so inclined and sell the completed IO for 10+ times the amount I just spent.
Why should I bother to complete and of the “goal” to unlock stuff when I can just buy it off the P2W vender. That’s roughly 1000 enhancements I no longer need salvage to create anyways, plus that would end up costing more than just buying the workstation.

Stop making the need for influence greater than playing the game and you will go a long way to addressing your influence problem.

[SwitchFade]

31 minutes ago, Nemesis said:

This is not quite correct. Not to be contrary.

Example. I have no patrol exp buy have XP earning turned off to make more influence. I am still now making normal influence and again earning xp. I've lost roughly 50% of my earned influence without having patrol xp. efectively you cut my buying power by 50% as I am no longer earning that influence, even without utilizing the exploit.

It seems it would have been far easier to turn off patrol exp once someone turns 50..

 

On a related note, does this change now mean your going to undo the nerf implemented to the architect system now that there is literally no reason not to have full exp on mobs there?

I'm sorry but, your post that it's not correct, is incorrect.

 

Buying power is not reduced.

 

Currency generation is reduced, inflation is reduced and buying power is increased.

 

Please read relevant posts in this thread about economics, normal goods vs inferior, substitute goods, factors of supply and demand, surplus, income disparity, inflation, income concentration, price ceilings, determinates of supply and demand, time value of money, ROI, rate of exchange, etc... That I have discussed multiple times.

 

Or you can save yourself some time and trust me when I say again, for the umpteenth time (not to you, to everyone posting thing such as this)...

 

Economics doesn't work that way and you will have more buying power.

 

Concerning your comment regarding AE, it should NEVER five abnormally higher rewards than normal content. So whatever we call the adjustment to that it should be brought in line with normal content.

[Nemesis]

29 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

Actually, while they might have decreased the Inf generated by 50%, by reducing the amount of currency everywhere, they've actually increased the value of that Inf.  The net effect is that your buying power is actually unchanged, especially as time goes forward and the effects of the change are allowed to settle across the entire playerbase/economy.

 

your using real world economics in a MMO. they 2 do not equate. The value did not increase. 1 influence is still 1 influence. While in an ideal world you would be correct, this is a world where I can create many many multiple accounts and have them all farm to offset this change.  The system requirements aren't so heavy that people wont do this. Overall nothing will change, because there are ways around it. Who it will hurt are the casual and non-farmers who will now earn less influence to pay the same prices.

 

[Doc_Scorpion]

4 minutes ago, Nemesis said:

Here is a couple other issues which also contributed to where we are now.
Stocking of the market with salvage: The market of salvage no longer go with supply and demand except with recipes and IOs.

Patently false.  The market price of salvage is far below the seed caps.

[Nemesis]

3 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

 

Please read relevant posts in this thread about economics, normal goods vs inferior, substitute goods, factors of supply and demand, surplus, income disparity, inflation, income concentration, price ceilings, determinates of supply and demand, time value of money, ROI, rate of exchange, etc... That I have discussed multiple times.

 

Or you can save yourself some time and trust me when I say again, for the umpteenth time (not to you, to everyone posting thing such as this)...

 

 

Again your using real world economic practice that don't work in a MMO. 

This is not the first MMO I have seen try to implement a nerf on currency and it wont be the last. None of them have ever fixed the problem and generally most of them have hurt the casual player.