What's the rule on full fledged rip offs of other IPs? Im seeing a lot of it

[Charistoph]

I don't understand why people get so concerned about this. Do you harangue every Batman or Deadpool you see on Halloween? I look at this the same way. If someone wants to create a character that is an homage to one of their favorite comic characters, who cares? It's difficult to make exact copies anyway. There is no bat symbol, no Superman chest symbol, etc. Sure, you can make pretty close copies, but rarely are they exactly identical.

 

How is this any different than the umpteen dozen generic Asian MMO NPCs I see running around? Aside from the IP concerns, I don't have a problem with recognizable character designs. If it's more fun for some, then have at it.

 

90%* of the Batman and Deadpool costumes seen for Halloween are licensed.  Of the remaining 10%*, so few are commercially for profit that it doesn't matter.

 

An homage and a recreation don't have to be the same thing, and I wouldn't report someone for an effective homage.  Rick from Rick & Morty is not really a super-hero genre character, but it could be argued that Sailor Moon and Goku from Dragonball are.  The good news for those latter is that they aren't any games that could be affected by it.

 

Then there are two other points to consider.  The Marvel Cinematic Universe means huge amounts of money for Disney.  So it is wise to be cautious there.  They may not have much of a dog in this fight, at the moment, but they definitely have a litigious attitude and can pay lawyers for centuries.  Fighting even spurious lawsuits could be more than the Score team can handle so the servers would be shut down without any other legal notice.

 

CoH is a competition for DCUO and CO dollars.  A case could be made of damages there since we wouldn't be spending money to support them as opposed to supporting the Score CoH servers here.  But it would have to be demonstrable that their numbers showed a significant drop in attendance and income with the launch of these servers.  Damages that Disney couldn't provide for because they dropped their dog in this fight.

 

Honestly, it would be hard for them to make a case from me for CO, since the last dollar I spent there was before they went F2P.  I haven't even spent a dollar on DCUO, so there is no loss from me there.

 

 

 

*92.4% of statistics are made up on the spot, and this is one.

[jubakumbi]

90%* of the Batman and Deadpool costumes seen for Halloween are licensed.  Of the remaining 10%*, so few are commercially for profit that it doesn't matter.

 

So why would this?

This is that '10%', IMO, and is not for profit.

 

Still sounds like just general fear of Disney lawyers to me.

Even IF Disney speaks up, the only thing that would happen is the server-runners would get a list of banned names - the costumes cannot be touched on their own, because of how trademarks work, it _has_ to be the 'whole thing' and they have to prove that people are mistaking thier products with others, diluting thier IP and causing a financial impact.

 

IMO, fearing this is like fearing you will get sued if your neighbors here your music and call it illegal broadcasting ...

 

Sure, anything is possible.

I prefer to make choices based on things that are far less fuzzy than 'some evil lawyers might come get us, so stop having fun'.

[Charistoph]

90%* of the Batman and Deadpool costumes seen for Halloween are licensed.  Of the remaining 10%*, so few are commercially for profit that it doesn't matter.

 

So why would this?

This is that '10%', IMO, and is not for profit.

 

Still sounds like just general fear of Disney lawyers to me.

Even IF Disney speaks up, the only thing that would happen is the server-runners would get a list of banned names - the costumes cannot be touched on their own, because of how trademarks work, it _has_ to be the 'whole thing' and they have to prove that people are mistaking thier products with others, diluting thier IP and causing a financial impact.

 

IMO, fearing this is like fearing you will get sued if your neighbors here your music and call it illegal broadcasting ...

 

Sure, anything is possible.

I prefer to make choices based on things that are far less fuzzy than 'some evil lawyers might come get us, so stop having fun'.

 

Do not translate concern as being fear.  I am not the one who has to deal with lawyers, so I have nothing to fear.  I am concerned for the loss of a game I enjoy, and that is the limit of where it goes.

 

Where it comes in to a problem is how donations are handled.  People have been sued for receiving too much in the way of donations so that it looked like they were being commercially profitable.  Such lawsuits have been successful in the past (provided sufficient damages can be applied, which Disney really can't do here).

 

BUT, and this is the biggest point that you seem to completely miss, a lawsuit does not have to be successful in the court to be a successful lawsuit.  All it needs to due is completely drain the funds of the defendant in question to destroy them.  If Score cannot pay the power and telecom bills, they are as shut down as if the Mounties came in and confiscated their equipment.

[jubakumbi]

BUT, and this is the biggest point that you seem to completely miss, a lawsuit does not have to be successful in the court to be a successful lawsuit.  All it needs to due is completely drain the funds of the defendant in question to destroy them.  If Score cannot pay the power and telecom bills, they are as shut down as if the Mounties came in and confiscated their equipment.

 

Not missing that point at all, I just know how those things work, been in litigation, I deal with corporate lawyers in the real world.

C&D shows up, they roll over, done, no money has to be exchanged unless they want to fight it.

Cannot get blood from a turnip as the saying goes.

 

CoH cannot die, the code is out.

 

So, sure, if one of the community server-runners gets loose on thier money, they might have an issue.

 

So far, the runners are smart enough to have LLCs and such to prevent/minimize personal losses.

Not a silver bullet, but shows the right intent, which is what laws and rulings are based on generally.

 

I simply do not have a fatalistic view of these things.

Fear, concern, thoughts, whatever word you like, I am not concerned in the least, IMO, it's a waste of energy for me.

 

'Bad things' will happen or they won't, and if they do, the game will not dissappear, just the foolish people tried to make money with things they don't own.

 

With all this data at hand, why spend time being concerned/worried.

 

I get that people want to discuss.

I still see 'vague feelings of losing CoH' causing people to find fatalistic scenarios that are highly improbable at the least, and none of them can put the genie back in the bottle.

[subbacultchas]

In my mind, a lawsuit isn't even necessary if the fears are enough to force a change in policy. It's not concern that bothers me, I think that it's a fantastic thing to care about a game we love that much. It's more the aspect of consumer fear driving potential dev policy that worries me. And overall the idea of fear driven policy, devoid of the substantiation of whether that fear is even practical or evidenced at all. So far as I know we haven't had them chime in on this yet, and I'm not necessarily saying they need to be, but it certainly predisposes me to think that they are less worried than the vocal portion of the community we see here.

 

I do not honestly see any of this ever generating a formal complaint or lawsuit from people, and a lot of the previous instances cited just don't really bear too much on the situation at hand. Like Jubakumbi, I'm not worried at all. Can't fault others for being afraid, but I can ask that we look at these fears to see how likely they are based on more analogous lawsuits and precedents.

[Charistoph]

BUT, and this is the biggest point that you seem to completely miss, a lawsuit does not have to be successful in the court to be a successful lawsuit.  All it needs to due is completely drain the funds of the defendant in question to destroy them.  If Score cannot pay the power and telecom bills, they are as shut down as if the Mounties came in and confiscated their equipment.

 

Not missing that point at all, I just know how those things work, been in litigation, I deal with corporate lawyers in the real world.

C&D shows up, they roll over, done, no money has to be exchanged unless they want to fight it.

Cannot get blood from a turnip as the saying goes.

 

CoH cannot die, the code is out.

 

So, sure, if one of the community server-runners gets loose on thier money, they might have an issue.

 

So far, the runners are smart enough to have LLCs and such to prevent/minimize personal losses.

Not a silver bullet, but shows the right intent, which is what laws and rulings are based on generally.

 

I simply do not have a fatalistic view of these things.

Fear, concern, thoughts, whatever word you like, I am not concerned in the least, IMO, it's a waste of energy for me.

 

'Bad things' will happen or they won't, and if they do, the game will not dissappear, just the foolish people tried to make money with things they don't own.

 

With all this data at hand, why spend time being concerned/worried.

 

I get that people want to discuss.

I still see 'vague feelings of losing CoH' causing people to find fatalistic scenarios that are highly improbable at the least, and none of them can put the genie back in the bottle.

 

But you are the one converting concern in to fear here.  And there has been several instances of private servers (specifically of another game) being shut down at just that point.  Finding a new one is annoying.  Rebuilding a character is annoying.  So there is a basis for concern, no matter how improbable YOU find them to be.

 

In my mind, a lawsuit isn't even necessary if the fears are enough to force a change in policy. It's not concern that bothers me, I think that it's a fantastic thing to care about a game we love that much. It's more the aspect of consumer fear driving potential dev policy that worries me. And overall the idea of fear driven policy, devoid of the substantiation of whether that fear is even practical or evidenced at all. So far as I know we haven't had them chime in on this yet, and I'm not necessarily saying they need to be, but it certainly predisposes me to think that they are less worried than the vocal portion of the community we see here.

 

I do not honestly see any of this ever generating a formal complaint or lawsuit from people, and a lot of the previous instances cited just don't really bear too much on the situation at hand. Like Jubakumbi, I'm not worried at all. Can't fault others for being afraid, but I can ask that we look at these fears to see how likely they are based on more analogous lawsuits and precedents.

 

I am hoping that any concern of this subject is unwarranted.  If I was truly fearful, I wouldn't have signed up and started playing.  However, part of wisdom is learning from other people's mistakes, and there is always wisdom to being aware of traps that are out there and helping a group avoid those traps.

[justicebeliever]

First, I don't think anyone is trying to create fear...What purpose would it serve here?  Just to be a troll?  I guess, but then what can you do with trolls?

 

For me the fear (or uncertainty, doubt, what have you) is that if Homecoming fails due to some legal reason, it'll just mean the death knell of any large scale effort like this going forward.  For me (only speaking for me), it's CoH or bust, and it's MMORPG or bust.  I don't want to play other MMORPG's (never have since CoH left in 2012), and I don't want to play CoH by myself.  I said it in a different post - I don't want a Small Singleplayer Virtual Machine RPG - SSVMRPG.  Playing with strangers is 3/4 of the fun, I don't want the hassle of maintain a VM, and I love the benefit of having a team of coders/developers that can maintain and make improvements

 

Fact:  This is largely uncharted territory here - a large unauthorized server of still-owned IP that is growing in size and presence.

Fact:  Homecoming is (and understandably needs to) accepting donations ($$) to maintain this enterprise. 

Fact:  Homecoming is an LLC and it is trying to become a non-profit, but that is very limited shielding for the Homecoming team.  It's hard to claim LLC status around a quasi legal venture to begin with

 

They way I see it, the risk here is that as this grows one or both of 2 things can happen

1.) WB/Disney sue for TM or Copyright infringement, specifically because they are worried that this effort is taking paying customers away from their own MMORPG's.  I can see any other reason why they would care about involving themselves here.  To be fair, if that's the case, there will be little we can do about it.  Similar to the Marvel case, they can just go in and create rip-off's and then send a C&D...

2.) More likely, NCSoft will either feel threatened about their IP, and send a C&D.

 

If either of those 2 groups send a C&D, it's going to likely be game over pretty quick.  This team just won't have the funds to fight it.  The fact that $$ is changing hands and there is ZERO ownership of the source code, means Homecoming won't have any legal grounds. 

 

If that happens, then Big Corps go after the next few more public private servers, and the whole effort will go underground.  For me - that'll be too underground to even think about playing...

 

It's a reality - one we have no control over.  That's why it seems silly to me to worry about reporting IP violations...It's not going to change the outcome one way or another.

 

I love this game, and I wish Homecoming and this community they best in this.  As for me, I must Go. Hunt. Kill Skuls.

 

[justicebeliever]

However, I am truly and genuinely interested in the Professional Debating experience...How does one do that?  It sounds fascinating.  If you don't mind posting here or in a short PM how that works, I really would be interested in hearing more.  Genuinely curious - not trying to debate about, just sounded fascinating...

 

tldr;

The Software Business. Money in the corporate world is no less political and safer than Politics. :)

 

Got long winded, I happen to think debate skills are really important for success. :)

 

A meeting to determine what goes into a new product, for example, is a professional debate.

One must sway the decision makers into choosing the things your team wants/thinks is right/knows will sell, vs other competing interests, like developers who would rather not be bothered to figure it out...

 

But take the same thing into any business situation with competing interests, especially sales.

For years, I have been the person to call 'BS' when people have no data, no real evidence, or, in some cases, no real product just vaporware and promises.

I am deployed these days to specifically 'interface' with prospect IT staff and debate the validity of our solution with thier internal staff and against other vendors at the same time.

 

I am always open to new data during these things as well.

New data changes things.

Holding on to a PoV when presented with new data that chnages things, IMO, is a losing stratetgy that appeals only to the human base fear of change, even if that change is just making a better choice.

In my world, anecdotal information is not data, along with vague fears and tradition. :)

 

PS: Was given the title Misinformation Eradicator on my badge for client meetings...

 

I loved this response.  I spent 20 years in the corporate technology world as product manager/business analyst/troubleshooter.  Used many of the same skills you mentioned - I love data to manage a PoV.  A PoV without data is pretty meaningless to me, so I understand that.  And I have had to call BS to many people over the years, again using data.  It's a crazy thing

 

Thanks for sharing!

[misat]

I ran into a female named Iron Muff LOL, made my day

[GamerKate]

Ripoffs are creatively lazy and legally dangerous for the game. They suck and should be reported and stopped.

[jubakumbi]

But you are the one converting concern in to fear here.  And there has been several instances of private servers (specifically of another game) being shut down at just that point.  Finding a new one is annoying.  Rebuilding a character is annoying.  So there is a basis for concern, no matter how improbable YOU find them to be.

 

Not converting anything.

The human psyche uses fear as a primary driver.

That includes 'lesser' fear like concern, and interest.

The _driver_ behind worrying is fear, it's just how how brains work.

Not shaking in my boots, need to find the restroom fear, just the little nagging voice of 'what if'.

 

I do what I can to convey ideas.

Like all humans, my vocabulary and vernacular are limited to my experience and therefore my choice of words and phrases might not always be what others would use, and therefore I am misunderstood.

 

I prefer questions like 'do you realize with your words from my point of view it sounds like you are stoking fear?' over accusations of trying to do the thing I am clearly trying to prevent - I don't want anyone to be scared about this, I want it drug out into the light to talk about it.

 

If you think I have a point of view, I wil happily confirm or deny.

My whole goal is to make people use all available data to make their own informaed choices and to have a little fun making people think about the world.

 

Why people often want to run to the most negative, worst possible interpretation of my words is actually facinating, TBH.

Fear often seems to drive them to assume whatever I said was 'bad' if they don't understand me, IMO; deal with this in real life as well, nothing new here.

I find as soon as people, generally, don't understanf me because I am not being clear, they decide to just get mad.

Fascinating.

[subbacultchas]

First, I don't think anyone is trying to create fear...What purpose would it serve here?  Just to be a troll?  I guess, but then what can you do with trolls?

 

Nor do I. I don't genuinely believe anyone is intentionally fear-mongering. It's just with unfounded and unsubstantiated fears, they really can't be allayed much either. Fears like that are rabid dogs on flimsy leashes, you struggle really hard for control but you know at some point others will be bitten and it will spread. I don't think anyone here is coming from anything other than a place of caring about this game, even if we disagree a bit.

[Charistoph]

But you are the one converting concern in to fear here.  And there has been several instances of private servers (specifically of another game) being shut down at just that point.  Finding a new one is annoying.  Rebuilding a character is annoying.  So there is a basis for concern, no matter how improbable YOU find them to be.

 

Not converting anything.

The human psyche uses fear as a primary driver.

That includes 'lesser' fear like concern, and interest.

The _driver_ behind worrying is fear, it's just how how brains work.

Not shaking in my boots, need to find the restroom fear, just the little nagging voice of 'what if'.

 

So taking something from a lesser form to a greater form is not converting?  Try again.

 

You are treating everyone who is presenting concern as if they are shaking in their boots, hiding in the restroom stall for fear of the corporate bullies.  It is that conversion of which I speak.

 

As another point, I have followed a few WoW private servers, and while internal politics can destroy a server more quickly than a C&D, I am aware of what has happened to them.  I bring some of those stories in to play largely to serve as a proper warning so wisdom can be engaged.  Last time I checked, presenting the wisdom of the past is not fear-mongering.  I am not fearful of an electrical socket, but I know better to be sticking forks in to them, and warn my children from doing the same.  It may seem like old hat, but there is wisdom in not poking bears, especially if they are giants with large round ears and you don't have any large caliber weapons.

 

I do what I can to convey ideas.

Like all humans, my vocabulary and vernacular are limited to my experience and therefore my choice of words and phrases might not always be what others would use, and therefore I am misunderstood.

 

And you misunderstand others, probably because of the same.

 

I prefer questions like 'do you realize with your words from my point of view it sounds like you are stoking fear?' over accusations of trying to do the thing I am clearly trying to prevent - I don't want anyone to be scared about this, I want it drug out into the light to talk about it.

 

Then why are you trying to shove other people's opinions in to the dark?  Your statements do not match up with consistency.

 

If you think I have a point of view, I wil happily confirm or deny.

My whole goal is to make people use all available data to make their own informaed choices and to have a little fun making people think about the world.

 

Except that data which opposes your point of view.

 

Why people often want to run to the most negative, worst possible interpretation of my words is actually facinating, TBH.

Fear often seems to drive them to assume whatever I said was 'bad' if they don't understand me, IMO; deal with this in real life as well, nothing new here.

I find as soon as people, generally, don't understanf me because I am not being clear, they decide to just get mad.

Fascinating.

 

Because of what you address and how you address it.  You address it like the fear-monger you claim to be fighting.  You have inserted over-inflated emotions in to their intentions, and then responded to what you created internally.  Not everyone operates on such an emotional extreme.  You claimed that you like to speak bluntly, so I am returning the favor.

 

As for being misinterpreted, I approach problems from multiple directions, and my favored solutions are usually ones that people do not see nor do they want to see the approach.  My solutions are then misinterpreted as not recognizing reality, when it is they who have not seen what I have perceived, and usually because they have inserted something else in to the mix as well.

[jubakumbi]

Because of what you address and how you address it.  You address it like the fear-monger you claim to be fighting.  You have inserted over-inflated emotions in to their intentions, and then responded to what you created internally.  Not everyone operates on such an emotional extreme.  You claimed that you like to speak bluntly, so I am returning the favor.

 

Awesome!

You don't like my style, in addition to disagreeing with soem of my opinions.

It really is that simple, IMO.

 

When I admit to being human, you just shove that back at me.

When I admit that yes, I make the same mistakes as others, you just attack.

 

You don't like me, I get it. :)

[Masonichero68]

I had one homage character in COH: Nuclear Justice.. a homage to my favorite DC character, Firestorm. He was a blaster and I gave him a look that was similar to Firestorm.. but if anyone asked me about him, I would always let them know that he was indeed my homage to my fave hero. He was never meant to be anything but my way of playing out that fantasy of being that great hero. Period. End of story.

[Charistoph]

Because of what you address and how you address it.  You address it like the fear-monger you claim to be fighting.  You have inserted over-inflated emotions in to their intentions, and then responded to what you created internally.  Not everyone operates on such an emotional extreme.  You claimed that you like to speak bluntly, so I am returning the favor.

 

Awesome!

You don't like my style, in addition to disagreeing with soem of my opinions.

It really is that simple, IMO.

 

When I admit to being human, you just shove that back at me.

When I admit that yes, I make the same mistakes as others, you just attack.

 

You don't like me, I get it. :)

 

I don't know anyone who likes it when someone else projects their emotions on to statements just to have a reason to bully.

 

No, I don't like you.  I don't hate you.  I simply don't care about you.  But when you try to bully me because of your emotional mistakes, I do start to care.  Then when you are corrected, you respond with supposed righteous indignation and try to place your mistakes on my head, I do care.

 

I have zero responsibility to be your emotional caretaker.  I have zero responsibility to kowtow to your extremism caused by such emotional projectionism.  While I also don't care if you soft-foot through life or not, I do feel reasons to not soft-foot around bullies just to cater to their need for an emotional vomiting, especially when they expect me to do the clean up.

[MacguyverBond]

What’s this thread about?

[GamerKate]

Its about players using the costume creator to make blatant copies of superheroes that belong to marvel or dc etc and that’s copyright infringement, so it’s arguably bait for Disney or Fox or Marvel to try to get us shut down.

 

I just had s convo in game with a character called ‘The Incredible Hulk’ after he shouted ‘Hulk smash!’ In local in Atlas. He disagreed with me that creating copies of Cap or the Hulk or whatever (Back In The Day it was Wolverine who was flavour of the year with the clone-makers I recall) is creatively lazy and dangerous for our game.

 

Back then, we could report IP-infringing toons.

 

What’s the official line on this now? Do we report?

 

MCM

[Aerous77]

Its about players using the costume creator to make blatant copies of superheroes that belong to marvel or dc etc and that’s copyright infringement, so it’s arguably bait for Disney or Fox or Marvel to try to get us shut down.

 

I just had s convo in game with a character called ‘The Incredible Hulk’ after he shouted ‘Hulk smash!’ In local in Atlas. He disagreed with me that creating copies of Cap or the Hulk or whatever (Back In The Day it was Wolverine who was flavour of the year with the clone-makers I recall) is creatively lazy and dangerous for our game.

 

Back then, we could report IP-infringing toons.

 

What’s the official line on this now? Do we report?

 

MCM

 

Yeh. I think this is fear-mongering.  ::)

 

Look. I understand the trepidation. Being back home when you thought it was gone forever is exhilarating. But, let's trust the HOMECOMING Devs. They did all this without our help, or criticism.  8)"IT IS A GIFT" just like Boromir said. HOMECOMING is the Precious...

 

Let's enjoy it responsibly. Have faith that the servers will run on without incident, with the Caveat that anything can happen. Enjoy it, don't spoil it!

 

 

[jubakumbi]

I have zero responsibility to be your emotional caretaker.  I have zero responsibility to kowtow to your extremism caused by such emotional projectionism.  While I also don't care if you soft-foot through life or not, I do feel reasons to not soft-foot around bullies just to cater to their need for an emotional vomiting, especially when they expect me to do the clean up.

 

Wow. Just wow.

 

You seem to equate my passionate confidence in my words in an attempt to get people to consider the facts with being a bully; fascinating.

 

Let's be clear.

I am not trying to bully people into reporting other players over things no one running the servers asked.

I am not trying to shame players for a perceived lack of creativity.

I am not promoting the extremely unlikely event that a C&D appears over characters that use existing IP.

 

How am I the bully or the extremist here?

 

And finally, laughably, I am not asking you, have never asked or implied, that you martyr yourself to come and clean up anything.

I don't need anything from you, emotionally or otherwise.

 

Just wow.

 

[Solvernia]

The argument that playing canon characters is 'uncreative' and 'original' is not only wrong, but also irrelevant. It takes a degree of skill and technique to be able to play someone else's character and do it well. Sure, maybe it's 'without permission', but this entire server is ripping off NCSoft's IP without permission and nobody seems to care about that.

 

I'd love to see a good justification for the reasoning that using NCSoft's characters without permission is okay, but using DC or Marvel's isn't.

[Cuauhtemoc]

I guess I am missing the if it's ok to create a fan fiction hero and supergroup. Example I have created "he Green Lantern Corps" if that is an issue I would disband it ASAP. I had one in the 2004v called the Emerald Order and I just would like to know it will violate any rules. If so I will drop it like a bad habit and form something close. I would just like to know.

[Heraclea]

Fan fiction and homage characters can also be of very wide inspiration.  Yes, I have homage characters that relate to Wonder Woman and She-Ra. 

 

On the other hand my next up and coming tanker is Catrina.  This is the name given in Mexico to the Posada tintype fancy dress skeleton who's an icon of Day of the Dead.  Not a fully original idea, an obvious and intended homage.  She speaks Nahuatl, and she's here to Kill Skuls.

 

Probably the richest vein of inspiration for my characters. though, is history and literature.  I have had at various stages the characters Betsy Ross, Abe Lincoln, Ranavalona, Madame Nhu (my Arachnos widow), and Giulia Tofana.  During the early days of the AE you could get an account wide 'Bard' badge from it.  That day, 'William Shakespeare' was born; he was my most successful defender, useful to AV teams, because he was 'the rad'.  I've had 'Saint Dominic' and 'Son of Man'.

 

Then there are the literary and mythological characters: Belphoebe, Britomart, Oya Iyansan, Camilla, Mayahuel, Grignr, Witchfinder General, Omphale, Lampito.  I didn't start from the ground up making these concepts either.  The challenge ever was to embody them in the game. 

[PFlux]

Back in 2004, Marvel did sue Cryptic Studios over City of Heroes since it was possible to create a character resembling their IP in the character creator.  From what I recall, Marvel lost.

 

That aside, it's up to the Homecoming team if they want to enforce players creating homages or even outright ripoff of established characters from Marvel, DC, etc.  Personally, I don't see much reason to given that this whole game is currently unauthorized anyway and carries its own risks.

 

I remember that time quite well.  Spent a lot of time harassing anyone I knew even remotely a Marvel fan.  LOL, good times.  And yeah.  Marvel lost big time, they've done well since then.

[robdee]

Marvel does have a game releasing sometime soon, not sure if that would make a difference to how they would respond.