Raw DPS - Demon or Ninja /Storm (help me to decide)

[You]

I want to make a raw dps build.  I have heard maxed reviews saying both are the top.  So which one should take the top spot?

 

Ele also offers +dam too.  Would it be better than /Storm in terms of dps?

 

(I have other MM setups.  Just want a silly dps build for a change.  I am doing this assuming one way or another pets can be kept alive long enough to finish the job)

 

Thanks!

[Kommon]

I really need to give Ninja Summoning another try.  I haven't played them since live, before some of the mastermind quality of life changes, and it was a Ninja/Poison to boot.  It was so bad I deleted it once it hit 50.

 

I do have three Demon Summoning Masterminds, two of them fully IO'ed. Demon/Nature (No IOs yet), Demon/Cold (IO'ed) and Demon/Rad (IO'ed).   I made the /Rad MM mainly to say "I have a Rad debuffer!" and also to have a build where I can fit in Knockout Blow with a bunch of procs with which to do silly things.  My /Cold MM was primarily more of an experiment with a few goals in mind: to see if layering defense with resistance on henchmen was worthwhile (it was, very much so), how well procs would work with some of my powers (very well), and if a debuff-heavy set with no heal was playable solo against strong targets (YES!).  Demons, with all the Pet unique IOs and if you choose to buff the tier 2 henchmen with resistance IOs, are extremely sturdy on their own, and they have sources of -res baked into the Hellfire Demonling and Hellfire Demon as well as a occasional heal from the Ember Demon.  Going with Demons gives you access to extra -res debuffs via personal attacks; I always take Corruption due to it's fast animation time and fast recharge with relatively low endurance cost, for the extra stacking -res debuff and easy an Apocalypse set.  Three things I dislike about demons: the tier 2 henchmen's idle sounds are terrible, the demons all fall funny, causing them to get stuck more often than other henchmen, and they are huge, causing annoyances for teammates.

 

Even though I haven't play with Ninjas in years, I feel that Demons would beat out Ninja when paired with Storm when factoring in all the things Demons bring to the table.

 

[Redlynne]

I'm working on a rebuild of my Ninja/Time/Mace build and it's pretty scary.  Took a lot of cross-pollinating from my Gravity/Time/Primal rebuild which also got really scary.

[Crysis]

If you want raw DPS I’d take a hard look at Thugs or Bots and Storm.  Procc’ed out and high recharge it’s very easy to drop double everything.  
 

Some will tell you this is only applicable to pylons but again, with high recharge, I’m dropping double everything often and then flipping Burnout for bigger ST battles like GM’s and AV’s.

[Zeraphia]

Raw DPS is murkier than you'd think... Ninjas should by the sheets deal the most damage, but it never works out that way. In almost every real circumstance, thugs reigns supreme... That said, with Demons, they are survivable and they bring -res which of course adds to the damage to your Lightning Storms. 

 

Overall, I'd pick Demons even if they technically may not be higher in on a sheet numbers standpoint. Against real AV/GM, Demons DPS will probably outpace Ninjas by reality mechanics (moving target, deaths, etc.)

[StrikerFox]

Demons would be hard pressed to out dps Ninjas vs a Rikti pylon. @BGSacho did a Demon/Dark run, going all out with Dark Servant, Hell on Earth, Tar Patch and personal MM attacks. Those on top of the regular pets and got a pylon time of 84s, 584dps.

 

Ninja/Dark defeated a pylon in the same amount of time. 84s, 584dps, using only Ninja pets, Smoke Flash and Tar Patch. If personal MM attacks and Dark Servant were added in, it would have been considerably quicker.

 

During normal gameplay, Demons would probably pull ahead. Better/more AoE attacks, exotic damage types, possibly using double HoE (Burnout), Crack Whip's AoE -damage resist would be a bigger factor. Also Demons are more survivable. Less summoning/upgrading would improve overall dps. 

 

Consider making a Thugs/Storm. Pets have a lot of AoE, I think the Enforcers alone have 3 different AoE attacks. Gang War's pets all appear at the same time when summoned. It provides some good burst damage, while HoE slowly fart out every 10 seconds.

[plainguy]

1 hour ago, StrikerFox said:

Gang War's pets all appear at the same time when summoned. It provides some good burst damage, while HoE slowly fart out every 10 seconds.

All good info but this was funny 

[plainguy]

I have many different masterminds. Many different range attack toons.

 

I swear if you put a gun to my head I would have zero clue which of all my tons is topping out in DPS. 

I get a decent feel but at the end of the day I can't tell the difference between a 10 seconds to kill and 15 seconds to kill moment. 

[ScarySai]

Echoing thugs/storm as the king, but since you asked about demons vs ninjas, probably ninjas with /storm between the two.

 

Demons will be tankier and not as micro intensive, but ninjas will shred single targets. 

Edited April 7, 2020 by ScarySai

[You]

If comparing Thugs, Demon and Ninjas, would Thugs then come out on top?

[Redlynne]

Depends on the build, the $Target(s) and the "tempo" of combat (orderly and controlled or chaotic steamroller?).

So context remains important.

[You]

On 4/7/2020 at 1:39 AM, StrikerFox said:

Demons would be hard pressed to out dps Ninjas vs a Rikti pylon. @BGSacho did a Demon/Dark run, going all out with Dark Servant, Hell on Earth, Tar Patch and personal MM attacks. Those on top of the regular pets and got a pylon time of 84s, 584dps.

 

Ninja/Dark defeated a pylon in the same amount of time. 84s, 584dps, using only Ninja pets, Smoke Flash and Tar Patch. If personal MM attacks and Dark Servant were added in, it would have been considerably quicker.

 

During normal gameplay, Demons would probably pull ahead. Better/more AoE attacks, exotic damage types, possibly using double HoE (Burnout), Crack Whip's AoE -damage resist would be a bigger factor. Also Demons are more survivable. Less summoning/upgrading would improve overall dps. 

 

Consider making a Thugs/Storm. Pets have a lot of AoE, I think the Enforcers alone have 3 different AoE attacks. Gang War's pets all appear at the same time when summoned. It provides some good burst damage, while HoE slowly fart out every 10 seconds.

 

Could you link those videos please?

 

Thanks!

[StrikerFox]

12 hours ago, You said:

Could you link those videos please?

Demon/Dark:

 

 

 

Ninja/Dark

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_GCtOtZKr8

[Dr Causality]

I have a Ninja/Storm that's fully Incarnated.  From my tests on Beta server Demons are much much better.      Ninja/Storm is playable but it's not that strong compared to other sets.   

 

Dead Ninjas don't do DPS_TM

 

  ...you spend a lot of time resumming.   (Not as much as Ninja/TA but still bad.)

 

The -Res from Demons means they do more damage.   It's a force multiplier that makes your storm powers do more damage, your Lore pets, your teammates etc.      But on top of that Demons are much much sturdier than Ninjas.  Demon's have the best Res, and they have an AOE heal.  The Res shield and heal heal also buff your MM.    On top of that Demons have a 4th pet power giving you more room to slot all the pet uniques and still chase set bonuses.    Take Ninjas for theme or challenge.  But if you're min-maxing, Demons outperform them by miles.

[You]

 

1 hour ago, StrikerFox said:

Demon/Dark:

 

 

 

Ninja/Dark

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_GCtOtZKr8

 

 

THANKS!!!

 

 

[You]

Just now, Dr Causality said:

I have a Ninja/Storm that's fully Incarnated.  From my tests on Beta server Demons are much much better.      Ninja/Storm is playable but it's not that strong compared to other sets.   

 

Dead Ninjas don't do DPS_TM

 

  ...you spend a lot of time resumming.   (Not as much as Ninja/TA but still bad.)

 

The -Res from Demons means they do more damage.   It's a force multiplier that makes your storm powers do more damage, your Lore pets, your teammates etc.      But on top of that Demons are much much sturdier than Ninjas.  Demon's have the best Res, and they have an AOE heal.  The Res shield and heal heal also buff your MM.    On top of that Demons have a 4th pet power giving you more room to slot all the pet uniques and still chase set bonuses.    Take Ninjas for theme or challenge.  But if you're min-maxing, Demons outperform them by miles.

 

 

I am leaning towards Demons too.  I have a Ninjas/Storm upto lv35.  I am still pulling my hair out on a regular +2 mission.

 

I am trying a Demons/Ele now just to have a feel of the novelty of /Ele.  It is rather sturdy but Empowering Circuit does not do enough +Dam as I hope.

 

 

[Dr Causality]

38 minutes ago, You said:

 

 

I am leaning towards Demons too.  I have a Ninjas/Storm upto lv35.  I am still pulling my hair out on a regular +2 mission.

 

I am trying a Demons/Ele now just to have a feel of the novelty of /Ele.  It is rather sturdy but Empowering Circuit does not do enough +Dam as I hope.

 

 

 

For leveling before you have good Rech and fully Slotted Storm powers, I alternated between Gale  and Wall of Force slotted with FF procs to boost Recharge.  Along with Sleet that gives you ton of mitigation and if you run +8, enough targets to get a consistent +Rech from the two FF.   Wall of Force does nearly no damage on it's own, but also does pretty well with Dmg procs.  You can respec them over to storm powers later.     Then to help with your Endurance issues you can alternate between Unleash Potential and Victory Rush.   With Attuned IO's that made for pretty easy leveling running like +1/+8.   Take O2 Boost.   You won't have enough slots for your powers anyway, and O2 Boost is a great spot for the Preventive Medicine +chance for Absorb proc and if you add a heal you get 2.25% S/L Res. The Absorb means your pets take less damage from Bodyguard mode.  Pickup weaken Resolve for an early source of -Res and early Achilles slot.    Mighty Leap holds your KB prot IO and unlocks Unleash Potential for you.   Endurance is a struggle.  If you have the infamy plan to put all the Recovery procs Panacea, Miracle, Numina's, Peformance Shifter.   Also get the temp P2W recovery power.  

 

1. Open with Gale.  Gale should be slotted for KB to KD, FF proc, Accuracy and range so you can fire it from far back making it easy get entire mobs.    It does very little damage so don't bother slotting.  Also don't slot for Dmg procs.  The FF proc is only get because you just need it to hit once out of an entire spawn.   Dmg procs you need to hit most of the spawn...
2. At early Lvls follow up with Sleet
3. Then Wall of Force.   Wall of Force doesn't do reliable KB mitigation, but it's a good at hitting the FF proc and okay for Dmg procs.   
4. Gale should just about be ready again.   If not fill in with a Weaken Resolve on Boss,  O2 Boost on a pet, or Aoe temp attack power etc.
5. Hurricane can situationally be handy.  But you skip Snow Storm you just don't have the Recovery to run it....

 

This was the skeleton leveling build I used, expensive but you sell it all when 50 so not a waste as it made leveling a breeze:

 

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1316&c=655&a=1310&f=HEX&dc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

Edited April 12, 2020 by Dr Causality