Why is MIND CONTROL so weak?

[tjknight]

Old TK was so good.. I still don't understand the changes made after all these years. 

 

But in general, if you want dps on a controller, it's Plant/ or Fire/  paired with Rad or Kin... I do wish there were more options. OTOH.. controllers are absolute beasts when teamed especially with other controllers or doms. Which is something I think we sometimes forget, some AT's that seem weak solo, were really designed to shine on teams. 

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, Peacemoon said:

I do remember the old TK. I remember a mind controller pinning a horde of mobs to a wall in a Boomtown office mission, and we were a bit in awe, but then happily cut them down! I was a lowly Grav Controller with just an aoe root and dimension shift to show for myself 😂

 

This was Ms. Givings, my Mind Controller in Issue 3 (4?) before the iron cored nerfbat MURDERED Telekinesis without recompense or apology (or even an admission of guilt for the slaying).

 

Took forever to defeat all those Skyraiders in Terra Volta, since Containment didn't exist yet and I couldn't use Levitate (since Levitate would fling them out of the AoE) ... so it was just Mesmerize+Dominate for damage dealing with no Containment ... but boy did it feel like an accomplishment!

 

Mass Hypnosis to put them all to sleep.

Telekinesis to scoop them all into the corner without taking incoming fire.

Mesermize+Dominate to take them all out without ever taking any damage ... over the next SEVERAL MINUTES.

 

Controllers were ... slow ... when it came to dealing damage in those days, before Containment.  It was all about the City of Statues experience when playing as a Controller.  😎

 

 

 

Now on Homecoming I've rerolled Ms Givings as a Mind/Nature Controller so as to have TWO AoE Hold toggles(!) and sufficient endurance recovery to fuel them both!

Ms Givings is also a Villain Controller this time, because ... Trust your Ms Givings! ... is her $battlecry.

[Peacemoon]

57 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

 

 

Now that's the TK I love and remember!

[AngriestGhost]

The thing that is often overlooked when people advise you to not compare Mass Confusion to Seeds is that Plant is also dealing a great deal of damage with Roots and Creepers or that those powers do nothing to offer the benefits of Seeds.  That is not true in Mind.  You hamper the kill speed advantage when you try to leverage Terrify for damage.

 

 In addition to that is that Seeds is an outlier with better recharge and duration than other sets find in their every spawn control; it honestly should behave more like Stalagmites and Flashfire. Those are reliable every spawn control without the kill speed advantage.  A solid build can have them up every spawn but also needs to fall back on other controls in an emergency. 

 

Both MC and Seeds would exist fine at those proven values, though there would certainly be a lot of gnashing  teeth for Seeds to need after all these years.

[Redlynne]

Mass Confusion suffers from being repeatedly hit by the One Size Fits All™ nerfbat from every direction possible.  It's either unavailable most of the time or isn't being used most of the time.  When it is used, it's extremely rare for the full duration of Mass Confusion to be in any way relevant since 10-16 $Targets will tend to defeat each other in a mass brawl relatively quickly, trimming their own numbers down and "wasting" a significant portion of the available duration (yet the full duration gets held against the power's uptime anyway, because ... spreadsheet math).

 

And think of it this way ... when the AoE Control nerf landed with Issue 5 ... none of the other Controller Tier 9 powers got nerfed.  ONLY Mind Control took it in the Tier 9, reducing the power to 1/4 of what it had been (double recharge, half duration) ... because, One Size Fits All™ ... and it's easier than Thinking™.

 

Mind Control just go brutalized by the changes in Issue 5, and the powerset has never recovered.

Other powersets had their AoE Immobilize and AoE Hold powers nerfed.

Mind Control had their AoE Sleep, Toggle Hold, AoE Hold, Cone Terrorize AND AoE Confuse powers nerfed ... HARD.  That's the majority of the powerset!

And why did that happen?

Because, One Size Fits All™ ... since it was easier than Thinking™ for the devs and Cryptic Studios at the time (and later Paragon Studios).

 

I remember what Mind Control was like to play before and after Issue 5 was released.

Before Issue 5, Mind Control was a STRONG Control powerset.  It locked stuff down harder than any other Control powerset.

After Issue 5 was released ... Mind Control barely rated as a Defender with Mez as the side effects on their powers.  It was whiplash inducing.

 

Mind Control got shoved into the ditch and had weights thrown on it to prevent it from being able to get out of the rut it was thrown into.  Some of us are still waiting for the necessary dev attention to (and I quote) ... "Put right what once went wrong..."

[EmperorSteele]

The problem with Mind also is that its abilities are superfluous on a team, especially one that's rolling. Sleeping mobs get attacked and woken up. "Fear"d mobs get attacked and break the fear. Confused mobs get killed and therefore don't help damage output. Your TK "root" will usually get killed first because reasons. Try to use Total Domination? By the time it goes off, everyone's dead anyway.

 

And as has been stated, MC for Dominators is really good, so any changes you make to MC would likely port over to them.

What I would do is re-work Containment entirely, with the emphasis of giving Mind an advantage to make up for its lack of a pet and "large rolling team friendliness".  Something like, have each type of control (including confuse and fear) give a certain damage bonus, with immob being the lowest. You'd also get a higher bonus for stacking magnitude, so even if a foe isn't affected by a hold or whatever,  you still get some bonus. This would be a surface nerf to most other Controller sets (since they rely more on immobs, which would get the lowest bonus as I already stated), but would prove a net positive for those who use multiple powers and keep attacking, which is exactly what Mind does best.

Either that, or swap Confuse for Mass Confuse (maybe bump it to level 8 or 10, OR let Confuse just be able to affect more targets as you level up), and have the level 32 power be one that can turn enemies into allies and give you a pet window to control their actions for a short time. But, you know, Cottage Rule.

[Redlynne]

13 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

This way you could offer both "gimped by design" choice and the useful version.

Fixed that for you ...

[oedipus_tex]

The essence is Mind Control was designed for a very different game and has just never caught up. Mind Control came out at a time when there were no target caps, AoEs Holds recharged quickly, there were no AoE Confused to compare Mass Confusion to, and Containment didn't exist.

 

I also don't really feel Mind Control on Dominators is amazing. It's not bad. But I think Dark Control is a very similar set and runs circles around Mind Control.

 

In total fairness, Gravity Control used to be way worse than Mind Control. However it was buffed. So Mind Control is only the weakest set because Gravity got better. At least there's that.

 

Mind Control could use some reduction in recharge times of key powers. I also think any power that does not do damage should be non-notify, like the Sleep and Confuses currently are. This would be consistent with Mind Control lacking positional tags on its powers and set a unique role for Mind Control, which otherwise lacks a secondary effect. You could then use Telekinesis to re-position mobs before attacking and Total Domination could be used without alerting them either.  (I think any conceptual resistance to using TK to resposition mobs secretly should be quelled by Wormhole being a non-notify power, which is amazing, but also IMO somewhat encroaches on Mind's space).

 

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Hjarki]

3 hours ago, EmperorSteele said:

The problem with Mind also is that its abilities are superfluous on a team, especially one that's rolling. Sleeping mobs get attacked and woken up. "Fear"d mobs get attacked and break the fear. Confused mobs get killed and therefore don't help damage output. Your TK "root" will usually get killed first because reasons. Try to use Total Domination? By the time it goes off, everyone's dead anyway.

Honestly, I think this is an issue with the Controller archetype as a whole - Mind is just the most clear example of it. The fundamental issue is that the notion of support is obsolete. Being able to cripple a spawn on a long recharge is of minimal use when everyone else is able to kill it more easily.

 

But that sort of support is all Mind Control has to offer. Moreover, it's just not very good at that sort of support. Mass Confusion is inferior to Synaptic Overload and Seeds of Confusion - and those powers are mainly Coercive Persuasion mules in a team setting. Terrify is inferior to Spectral Terror - which is again a power you primarily take because it might be useful solo and you can dump a decent set into it. Sleeps are generally useless unless they're Static Field because they don't even get good sets. A second Confuse is useless since you can't slot CP more than once. The Mass Holds are routinely skipped because they're on the same sort of recharge as 'annihilate the whole spawn' - and everyone gets a Judgement.

 

Telekinesis is the 'signature power' - and the fact that no one ever takes it from Epic/Patron pools should demonstrate how poor it is.

 

I don't think there's any easy fix here. There just aren't any features with Mind that would justify taking it except from a purely RP standpoint - and this is true for Dominators as well. To make it a worthwhile set, you'd really have to invent new powers to replace the crud it has now.

 

[The_Cheeseman]

Mind Control is a Dominator set. Period.

Honestly, I think the easiest solution would be to just turn Telekinesis into an AoE immobilize, solving both the MOB scatter and AoE containment issues. It also wouldn't really affect Doms much, which is good, because Mind is pretty OP on Doms, already.

Also, comparing Mass Confusion to Seeds of Confusion is a bit misleading. On paper, Seeds seems to be superior, just due to the recharge. But you really shouldn't underestimate the fact that Mass Confusion is essentially a spawn delete button that doesn't even cause aggro. Seeds is a great every-spawn control power, but it's not in the same league as Mass Confusion. Mass Confusion's recharge is entirely justified, I believe. You can already get it down to around 60 seconds--much lower than that and you seriously risk trivializing the entire game.

[SaddestGhost]

2 hours ago, The_Cheeseman said:

Also, comparing Mass Confusion to Seeds of Confusion is a bit misleading. On paper, Seeds seems to be superior, just due to the recharge. But you really shouldn't underestimate the fact that Mass Confusion is essentially a spawn delete button that doesn't even cause aggro. Seeds is a great every-spawn control power, but it's not in the same league as Mass Confusion. Mass Confusion's recharge is entirely justified, I believe. You can already get it down to around 60 seconds--much lower than that and you seriously risk trivializing the entire game.

I'm a bit baffled by what you mean here.  MC has a larger area than Seeds and is easier to aim, but other than that the end result is the same.  The lack of aggro is only really relevant when you want to put a mob on hold, otherwise you're attacking them and generating aggro anyway. 

[Obitus]

4 hours ago, Hjarki said:

I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario where Mind is better than Electric. You don't even need perma-Dom with Electric.

Elec is great, but it can't stack eleven billion Confuse mags on an AV.  For specific high-end shenanigans like soloing the Phalanx in the LRSF, I can't imagine that Elec performs as well as a Mind does (on a Dominator).  In that same scenario, I doubt that Static Field is as effective as Mass Hypnosis - though the former generally beats the latter in normal content.

 

Elec as a whole set generally beats Mind in normal content, though Elec isn't exactly an AoE monster either.

 

4 hours ago, Hjarki said:

I must admit that I'm a bit puzzled at how Confuse is basically just a better version of Hold - it can be used without aggro and with lower recharges. It even tends to compress spawns for you.

Confused mobs can still run out of e.g. damage patches.  This was a source of annoyance for me on my Mind Dom, which couldn't find a way to consistently leverage Rain of Fire.  When it comes to AoE kill speed, taunt auras and/or hard controls are pretty much irreplaceable.  Blasters without either of those can mostly compensate through sheer brute-force burst damage, but even they will occasionally see scatter that slows them down.  This is also why Brutes are generally preferred over Scrappers, for AoE kill speed; Scrappers don't have consistent access to taunt auras.

 

I'm not married to any of my suggestions for Mind Control.  Others in this thread and elsewhere have put forward good ideas.  The main thing I wanted to emphasize with my suggestions is that you don't have to completely revamp the set's feel to make it perform significantly better.  Just reducing Mass Confusion's recharge timer would be a huge boost.  Giving the set consistent access to Containment, likewise, would help the average Mind player enormously, without substantially increasing the set's damage potential (which would remain the same in teams where Containment is already provided).

 

On a similar note, I'm all for replacing Telekinesis outright with something that is both easier to use and consistently powerful, but the devs might not be on board with that; some people would complain about losing the flavor that the power provides.

[roleki]

I remember the days when people would roll a Mind/ just to get access to TK, so it is sad to see how useless it has become.  

 

It would be nice to see TK made a signature power again, but to do it right they would probably have to divorce Controller MC from Dom MC.  

 

 

[roleki]

21 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

Can you elaborate? Why do you think that?

Because MC for Controllers is what they broke, and the fix shouldn't be handcuffed to "but what would that be like on a Dominator?"  

[Redlynne]

6 hours ago, The_Cheeseman said:

Mind Control is a Dominator set. Period.

-10 Credibility.

 

Mind Control was a Controller set exclusively from Issue 0 through Issue 5.

The only reason why Mind Control is "better" on a Dominator is the Domination (and perma-Domination) power.  The double magnitude of Domination is what supercharges Mind Control into useful levels of City of Statues again.

 

I find your argument flawed.

6 hours ago, The_Cheeseman said:

Honestly, I think the easiest solution would be to just turn Telekinesis into an AoE immobilize, solving both the MOB scatter and AoE containment issues.

-8 Credibility.

 

The easiest solution is to simply REMOVE REPEL from Telekinesis ... since that solves both the scatter AND AoE Containment issues even more easily.

The slightly more elegant solution is to allow the Player to conditionally toggle on/off the Repel effect in Telekinesis while Telekinesis is toggled on so as to be able to CONTROL the Repel factor in an On Demand way.

 

I find your argument flawed.

6 hours ago, The_Cheeseman said:

Mass Confusion's recharge is entirely justified, I believe.

-7 Credibility.

 

You're entitled to your opinion ... but that's all it is ... your opinion, your belief.

6 hours ago, The_Cheeseman said:

But you really shouldn't underestimate the fact that Mass Confusion is essentially a spawn delete button that doesn't even cause aggro. Seeds is a great every-spawn control power, but it's not in the same league as Mass Confusion.

-15 Credibility.

 

A Confuse power that draws aggro versus a Confuse power that doesn't draw aggro only matters when the affected $Targets SURVIVE beyond the duration of the Confuse.

Aggroed but Defeated while Confused is STILL DEFEATED before they could attack YOU.

As you point out, there is precedent for (and I quote) ... "a great every-spawn control power" ... (unquote) that is an AoE Confuse.  Even more galling is that you are simultaneously asserting that a TIER 9 power CANNOT BE THAT.

 

I would also point out that non-aggro on Mass Confusion is only relevant if you (or your Team/League) deals No Damage.  As soon as anyone deals damage (or even any Notify Mobs powers at all), the non-aggro aspect of Mass Confusion is broken/negated.  On top of that, Foes who defeat "themselves" (by dealing all the damage to defeat that Foe) means that no XP, INF or drops are generated for the Mind Controller nor their Team/League.  You only get XP, INF and drops from Foes you deal at least 1 HP of damage to ... and as already mentioned, if you deal ANY damage at all, the non-aggro aspect of Mass Confustion is broken/negated.

 

You're trying to "have it both ways" when you already know you can't.  You can't use Mass Confusion AND inflict damage upon Foes affected by Mass Confusion without negating the non-aggro advantage of Mass Confusion, because the non-aggro advantage is "fragile" in the same way that Sleep is "fragile" and subject to being broken.

 

I find your argument to be flawed, self-contradictory and hypocritical (on top of everything else).

 

 

---

 

 

I could keep going, but after losing -40 Credibility on this topic, I honestly don't feel like continuing to refute your arguments is a worthwhile investment of my time nor energies with respect to this topic.  However, if you insist on clinging to your ... beliefs ... in this matter, I think that Worf said it best.

[Redlynne]

5 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

Not picking nits, just not clear on why you think a solution can’t be reached that both ATs can use. I was under the impression you had something specific in mind.

I suspect that there is just a natural (if wrong, but natural) sense that anything which is done to Mind Control for Controllers will wind up being wildly overpowered for Mind Control on Dominators (because ... insert reasons here, I guess).  It's just an empirical assumption (flawed, but since when has that ever stopped anyone from making assumptions) that whatever Controllers achieve in this regard will wind up being 2x to 10x more useful/powerful/game unbalancing if ported 1:1 over to Dominators without any changes whatsoever (aside from removing Overpower and substituting in Domination).

 

I'm personally of the opinion that it would be SAFER to road test (and play test) any changes to Mind Control on Controllers FIRST, so as to give the changes a thorough vetting, before proliferating those changes to Dominators LATER after a wealth of data (and datamining) and user experience with the changes has been generated concerning those changes.  Doing Controllers before Dominators reduces the workload and keeps the changelog simplified in a way that is easier to manage overall.  You then make changes to Mind Control for Controllers with the implicit understanding that those changes are not "exclusive" to Controllers, but merely being done to Controllers "first" with the Dominator version of the powerset getting their update "after" just in case something doesn't work, there are weird inter(re)actions or edge cases produced ... you know the drill.  Doing it as a one then the other manages and mitigates RISK inherent in making any changes at all.

[roleki]

14 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

Not picking nits, just not clear on why you think a solution can’t be reached that both ATs can use. I was under the impression you had something specific in mind like Domination considerations.

Well, your nitpicking is warranted, I'm not giving you much other than saying they should be separated, and that's mostly because MY own ideas for fixing MC are a little ridiculous.  I would amp Terrify into a mini-nuke, and turn TK into an un-Force Bubble, where anything caught in the AoE is immobilized and immune to KB, and quickly drawn to the center of the AoE. 

 

I'm talking about making TK a power that would give Mind an avenue to Containment (while not being a lockdown power) and would finally be an AoE immob that teams don't mind you leading with.  Obviously, an AoE that brings foes into melee range would not be fair on say, a Mind/Energy Dom.  

[Redlynne]

I'm continually amazed by how people keep thinking that an AoE Immobilize toggle is better for containment than an AoE Hold toggle.

You do realize that Holds set up Containment ... right?

[Hjarki]

4 hours ago, Obitus said:

Elec is great, but it can't stack eleven billion Confuse mags on an AV.  For specific high-end shenanigans like soloing the Phalanx in the LRSF, I can't imagine that Elec performs as well as a Mind does (on a Dominator).  In that same scenario, I doubt that Static Field is as effective as Mass Hypnosis - though the former generally beats the latter in normal content.

Stacking eleven billion Confuse mags on an AV isn't actually all that useful in most cases because you're just using Confuse as a budget Hold in that scenario - and any level of Confuse you could hit is also a level of Hold any Controller could hit.

Static Field self-stacks within the same field (and, of course, you can layer multiple fields on top of one another if you so desire) so it'll sleep anything Mass Hypnosis could sleep - and it will do so without even needing perma-Dom.

2 hours ago, Redlynne said:

The easiest solution is to simply REMOVE REPEL from Telekinesis ... since that solves both the scatter AND AoE Containment issues even more easily.

The slightly more elegant solution is to allow the Player to conditionally toggle on/off the Repel effect in Telekinesis while Telekinesis is toggled on so as to be able to CONTROL the Repel factor in an On Demand way.

I think a better solution is to reverse the Repel - make it an 'Attract' instead. If I want to send mobs away, there are dozens of far easier ways to do it. But if I want to pack mobs tightly against me, there really aren't all that many options for Controllers/Dominators.

 

[Redlynne]

3 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

I think a better solution is to reverse the Repel - make it an 'Attract' instead.

Ideally speaking, you'd want to have Telekinesis "pull" affected $Targets towards the anchor.  You can't really "do" that with Repel without resorting to Rube Goldberg levels of pseudopets layering stuff together.  The alternative would be a Wormhole-ish) Teleport to "pull" affected $Targets towards the anchor.

[roleki]

44 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

I'm continually amazed by how people keep thinking that an AoE Immobilize toggle is better for containment than an AoE Hold toggle.

You do realize that Holds set up Containment ... right?

I've got 840-odd levels of Controllers just in HC.  I know what an AoE hold does, and, if I wanted Mind to have a once-every-90-second path to containment I would have specified a Hold.  But a Hold is not what is needed here.

[Peacemoon]

29 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Ideally speaking, you'd want to have Telekinesis "pull" affected $Targets towards the anchor.  You can't really "do" that with Repel without resorting to Rube Goldberg levels of pseudopets layering stuff together.  The alternative would be a Wormhole-ish) Teleport to "pull" affected $Targets towards the anchor.

It would require new tech that’s for sure. But if we could have it, it might be a great gift for controllers in the current meta. 

[SaddestGhost]

1 minute ago, Hjarki said:

Stacking eleven billion Confuse mags on an AV isn't actually all that useful in most cases because you're just using Confuse as a budget Hold in that scenario - and any level of Confuse you could hit is also a level of Hold any Controller could hit.

It is somewhat easier to stack Confusion on an AV on account of its longer duration and aggro-less nature.  When you're attempting to stack that magnitude of any mez, activation times and duration really come into play, and Confuse does activate faster than some single target holds (Fossilize and Tesla Cage). Dominate and Char do provide some advantage in that scenario because of their very short activations. But really the scenario of trying to outright control an AV is so infrequent most people don't even consider it.  One of the most common scenarios for it rises in the ITF when a team can't out damage the healing Nictus, but if we've reached that level of desperation people tend to quit before having the patience to watch a controller build mag on an AV.

13 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Honestly, I think this is an issue with the Controller archetype as a whole - Mind is just the most clear example of it. The fundamental issue is that the notion of support is obsolete. Being able to cripple a spawn on a long recharge is of minimal use when everyone else is able to kill it more easily.

I disagree with this... to a degree.  The end game has definitely diminished the value of support.  The availability of Incarnate powers in regular content is the primary factor there, in my opinion.  Inventions, particularly with the availability of defense options, are the other factor.  But that still leaves a great deal of the game (for those that play it, rather than powerlevel through it) where controls are still relevant.  Just the other day I participated in a disastrous Penny Yin that had no support or control ATs.

 

On 4/9/2020 at 2:35 PM, 5099y_74c05 said:

Mind Control is a decent set and won't require many tweaks to make it a great set IMO. Whatever fixes are applied should be ported to the Dominator version too. The most effective changes will probably rely on fixing TK and tweaking MC. From an overall set design I think having compelling power choices is great; I'm not a fan of skip powers. Sets should have at least one set defining choice, most have two such choices that are likely to break your build if you skip them. From a design standpoint, I  think TK and MC were intended (at the time of introduction) to be the set defining choices.

I quite agree that parity between the controller and dominator versions of Mind controller should be maintained.  However, I don't think fixes to TK (and it should be fixed for both ATs) will address the primary issue with Mind for controllers: damage.  For that we need to look to Containment and Terrify, Mind's only source of AoE Damage.  In Blackfeather's suggestion thread, I propose lowering the recharge and duration of Terrify so that it can be better utilized as a damage power.   Couple a lower recharge with Fear-triggered containment and Mind may become competitive for controllers again.

 

On 4/9/2020 at 2:35 PM, 5099y_74c05 said:

The lack of secondary side effects in the powers could be something else to consider but not likely to have a huge impact; I was under the impression Mind/ had increased accuracy or discounted endurance as such an effect but I'm not seeing that in any of the numbers. I suggest this with reservation since I'm not a big fan of -Rech Psi powers typically have as a side effect.

Mind doesn't seem to have a blatant accuracy advantage, but it does have the advantage in that most of its powers only have the tag of Psi.  Without the tags of ranged or AoE most enemies will have no defense against it.  Force Field Generators, for instance, provide no defense against Psi so they can easily be confused and turned against their owners.   Unfortunately, when you get to the late game psi defense does become more common with enemies like the Carnies, Arachnos, and the IDF.

[The_Cheeseman]

5 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Mind Control was a Controller set exclusively from Issue 0 through Issue 5.

The only reason why Mind Control is "better" on a Dominator is the Domination (and perma-Domination) power.  The double magnitude of Domination is what supercharges Mind Control into useful levels of City of Statues again.

Thanks for stating the obvious. Everybody is aware that Mind Control was a Controller set first, my point was that, these days, it’s so much better on a Dominator that it may as well not be an option for Controllers. And yes, Of course Domination is the reason why.
 

5 hours ago, Redlynne said:

The easiest solution is to simply REMOVE REPEL from Telekinesis ... since that solves both the scatter AND AoE Containment issues even more easily.

The slightly more elegant solution is to allow the Player to conditionally toggle on/off the Repel effect in Telekinesis while Telekinesis is toggled on so as to be able to CONTROL the Repel factor in an On Demand way.

 

I find your argument flawed.

That’s a fine Idea, as well. Not sure what about my suggestion you feel damages my credibility, I was just making a suggestion.

 

5 hours ago, Redlynne said:

You're entitled to your opinion ... but that's all it is ... your opinion, your belief.

Again, this is obvious. What’s your point?

 

5 hours ago, Redlynne said:

A Confuse power that draws aggro versus a Confuse power that doesn't draw aggro only matters when the affected $Targets SURVIVE beyond the duration of the Confuse.

Aggroed but Defeated while Confused is STILL DEFEATED before they could attack YOU.

As you point out, there is precedent for (and I quote) ... "a great every-spawn control power" ... (unquote) that is an AoE Confuse.  Even more galling is that you are simultaneously asserting that a TIER 9 power CANNOT BE THAT.

No, the main benefit of a non-aggro AoE hard control power is the ability to lockdown a significant number of MOBs without aggroing any other nearby MOBs. By using a combination of Mass Hypnosis and Mass Confusion, you can neutralize an entire room full of MOBs while invisible and then just murder them at your leisure. It’s an unparalleled level of MOB control that provides a multitude of strategic options and allows you to start every encounter on your own terms.

 

I never implied that a T9 could not, or should not, be an every-spawn control power. I said that, in my opinion (obviously), Mass Confusion, specifically, is too powerful to be an every-spawn control power.

 

5 hours ago, Redlynne said:

I would also point out that non-aggro on Mass Confusion is only relevant if you (or your Team/League) deals No Damage.  As soon as anyone deals damage (or even any Notify Mobs powers at all), the non-aggro aspect of Mass Confusion is broken/negated.  On top of that, Foes who defeat "themselves" (by dealing all the damage to defeat that Foe) means that no XP, INF or drops are generated for the Mind Controller nor their Team/League.  You only get XP, INF and drops from Foes you deal at least 1 HP of damage to ... and as already mentioned, if you deal ANY damage at all, the non-aggro aspect of Mass Confustion is broken/negated.

It’s very relevant for a squishy AT that usually prefers not to eat a spawn’s alpha strike. Mass Confusion allows you to effectively queue-up the next spawn for slaughter while the rest of your team is still working on the last one. You can run ahead, toss MC, and let the MOBs contribute some DPS against themselves, softening up the spawn ahead of time and making overall clear time faster.

 

It’s also great for splitting-up tightly-packed rooms. If there are several spawns in close proximity, you can MC a bunch of MOBs in the middle, thereby allowing your team to engage one half of the room without the opposite side aggroing (you can also use Mass Hypnosis for this, but you lose out on the extra damage).

 

Finally, it’s just plain incorrect to claim that dealing any damage instantly negates the benefits of non-aggro confuse. Confused MOBs don’t register aggro, which means that you can drop Mass Confusion on a spawn and kill/pull away any other MOBs nearby, and the ones that were confused won’t aggro after confusion wears off. You can also nuke any of the confused MOBs without aggro, as long as there aren’t any non-confused MOBs in aggro range to see it, and they won’t even notice. I have personally used Mass Confusion on a spawn, tossed fireball right into the middle of it, let the MOBs kill each other, gotten exp for those kills, and none of the survivors ever aggroed me.
 

Note: The previous paragraph is corrected downthread

5 hours ago, Redlynne said:

You're trying to "have it both ways" when you already know you can't.  You can't use Mass Confusion AND inflict damage upon Foes affected by Mass Confusion without negating the non-aggro advantage of Mass Confusion, because the non-aggro advantage is "fragile" in the same way that Sleep is "fragile" and subject to being broken.

 

I find your argument to be flawed, self-contradictory and hypocritical (on top of everything else).

See above how this is just flat-out wrong.

 

So how about this: why don’t we have a civil, polite conversation about game mechanics, without all the smugness and condescension? Because it really isn’t doing you any favors, here.

Edited April 10, 2020 by The_Cheeseman

[Obitus]

 12 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

Stacking eleven billion Confuse mags on an AV isn't actually all that useful in most cases because you're just using Confuse as a budget Hold in that scenario - and any level of Confuse you could hit is also a level of Hold any Controller could hit.

Static Field self-stacks within the same field (and, of course, you can layer multiple fields on top of one another if you so desire) so it'll sleep anything Mass Hypnosis could sleep

Let's back up:

 

Spoiler

 On 4/9/2020 at 4:24 AM, Obitus said:

If you want a character who can solo insane challenges, or a character who can solo all NPC factions with only minor variations in difficulty, then it's hard to beat Mind Doms.  (Illusion Controllers are quite possibly the only real contender for "better than Mind Doms" at soloing things like hard TFs.)

 

On 4/9/2020 at 10:22 AM, Hjarki said:

I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario where Mind is better than Electric. You don't even need perma-Dom with Electric.

6 hours ago, Obitus said:

Elec is great, but it can't stack eleven billion Confuse mags on an AV.  For specific high-end shenanigans like soloing the Phalanx in the LRSF, I can't imagine that Elec performs as well as a Mind does (on a Dominator).  In that same scenario, I doubt that Static Field is as effective as Mass Hypnosis - though the former generally beats the latter in normal content.

 

We aren't talking about "most cases."  The specific context of this conversation was "insane solo challenges" - like the aforementioned LRSF, where confusing AVs has more utility than simply holding them.  Mind Doms, like Illusion Controllers, are really good at those.   This is mostly due to Mind's ability to A) stack confuse and B) insta-sleep even AVs without notifying them. 

 

Also, these days Controllers and Doms should probably proc out their single-target holds, so having an extra tool that doesn't crave damage-oriented slotting is an asset in an AV fight, where an unenhanced hold won't stack high enough.  By the way, Confuse has roughly twice the base duration of a single-target hold, so no, it isn't true that "any level of Confuse you could hit is also a level of Hold any Controller could hit."  Holding AVs is actually pretty hard to do.

 

Apart from insane-solo-challenge shenanigans, Mind Doms have some appeal due to a relatively smooth performance curve across the full collection of the game's villain groups; the set's variety of control types, combined with Domination's mag boost, means that Mind Control doesn't have many obvious hard counters, if any at all - but the flipside of that is that Mind Control's performance curve isn't terribly high to begin with, in the average game play scenario, due to low AoE damage output, lack of scatter control, and (for Controllers) lack of containment.

 

It is entirely possible that I overrate Mind Control on Dominators because my specific play style or use case preferences are biased towards its relatively modest strengths.  It's also possible that forumites in general presume a level of +recharge on Mind Doms that they don't necessarily presume for Controllers, because of the perma-Dom thing.  But I explicitly acknowledged that Elec/* is better in most gameplay scenarios, so this continued line of argument wears thin.