New class?

[thunderforce]

99% is just wrong, not even close. There are plenty of archvillains in the original arcs; Dr Vahz is just the first. (Some of the original ATs will even struggle with EBs, short of outlevelling them twice and going back). In 35-40, the original level cap, 2 of the 5 origin contacts have you fight an arch-villain. When issue 1 comes out, 3 of the 4 contacts in 45-50 have you fight one. It wouldn't be anywhere near 99% even if we ignore Task Forces and Trials which all force you to team up. The one piece of endgame content is... Hami raids. Good luck doing those solo.

 

This isn't just semantics. You said "City has always been about the option to solo" and the original design just doesn't bear that out, short of the option being "be a scrapper". Listing the proportion (quite a bit less than 99%) of the game that you can solo if you don't mind it being somewhere from ghastly to dull on three of the original ATs doesn't in any way support the idea that "City has always been about the option to solo". The original design suggests that heroes were not expected to solo all the time, some of the ATs were not really intended to solo much if at all, and it was felt to be entirely fine for lots of the content in the game to explicitly force or effectively demand a team.

 

To pick an extreme example, what about the Cavern of Transcendence says to you "we always have the option to solo in mind"?

Edited April 13, 2020 by thunderforce

[Burnt Toast]

2 minutes ago, thunderforce said:

99% is just wrong, not even close. There are plenty of archvillains in the original arcs; Dr Vahz is just the first. (Some of the original ATs will even struggle with EBs, short of outlevelling them twice and going back). In 35-40, the original level cap, 2 of the 5 origin contacts have you fight an arch-villain. When issue 1 comes out, 3 of the 4 contacts have you fight one. It wouldn't be anywhere near 99% even if we ignore Task Forces and Trials which all force you to team up. The one piece of endgame content is... Hami raids. Good luck doing those solo.

 

This isn't just semantics. You said "City has always been about the option to solo" and the original design just doesn't bear that out, short of the option being "be a scrapper". Listing the proportion (quite a bit less than 99%) of the game that you can solo if you don't mind it being somewhere from ghastly to dull on three of the original ATs doesn't in any way support the idea that "City has always been about the option to solo". The original design suggests that heroes were not expected to solo all the time, some of the ATs were not really intended to solo much if at all, and it was felt to be entirely fine for lots of the content in the game to explicitly force or effectively demand a team.

 

To pick an extreme example, what about the Cavern of Transcendence says to you "we always have the option to solo in mind"?

Just because there IS team content - that does not mean you cannot solo. Seriously. I know plenty of people who NEVER teamed once and had multiple 50's of every AT. Was it fun... I guess to them it was - would it be fun for me to solo.. oh heck no... I loathe soloing, BUT that does not mean that you could not do it on ANY AT - depending on what content you decided to do. You could street sweep your way to 50 if you wanted to - the OPTION is there. Listing content that is meant for teams does not mean there is/was not content that could easily be soloed by any AT. Naming instances does not take away from the fact that the vast majority of this game can be soloed... maybe not 99% but that doesn't mean that 80-90% cannot be soloed. Just because you may not want to do it...doesn't mean you can't. The original design... encouraged street sweeping. It was not uncommon in Issue 1-4/5 to see people running around various zones (solo and in teams) street sweeping. 

ALL that being said... the main reason I play CoH is because of teaming... soloing bores me to tears.. I like the social aspect of the game. I don't solo because I can't solo and advance... I don't solo because I like playing and chatting with others. 

[Burnt Toast]

12 minutes ago, thunderforce said:

99% is just wrong, not even close. There are plenty of archvillains in the original arcs; Dr Vahz is just the first. (Some of the original ATs will even struggle with EBs, short of outlevelling them twice and going back). In 35-40, the original level cap, 2 of the 5 origin contacts have you fight an arch-villain. When issue 1 comes out, 3 of the 4 contacts have you fight one. It wouldn't be anywhere near 99% even if we ignore Task Forces and Trials which all force you to team up. The one piece of endgame content is... Hami raids. Good luck doing those solo.

 

This isn't just semantics. You said "City has always been about the option to solo" and the original design just doesn't bear that out, short of the option being "be a scrapper". Listing the proportion (quite a bit less than 99%) of the game that you can solo if you don't mind it being somewhere from ghastly to dull on three of the original ATs doesn't in any way support the idea that "City has always been about the option to solo". The original design suggests that heroes were not expected to solo all the time, some of the ATs were not really intended to solo much if at all, and it was felt to be entirely fine for lots of the content in the game to explicitly force or effectively demand a team.

 

To pick an extreme example, what about the Cavern of Transcendence says to you "we always have the option to solo in mind"?

I never once said "always." There is obviously team oriented content in the game, but there is also a solo oriented way to play the game as well. 

[thunderforce]

18 hours ago, Burnt Toast said:

City has always been about the option to solo...which is why every AT CAN solo...

(Bolding mine).

40 minutes ago, Burnt Toast said:

I never once said "always."

This is turning into a classic motte-and-bailey defence; when the expansive (and untrue) statement that the game "has always been about the option to solo" is challenged, you retreat into the much less dramatic business of pointing out it wasn't literally compulsory to be on a team any time you earned XP - which is true, but so what? It's true of any MMO, as far as I know, and it doesn't actually justify the expansive statement.

 

Let's look at the pre-Containment Controller. Most of your secondary doesn't even work on you, and if you happened to take Fire primary, until level 32 you have a slight advantage over most Controller primaries in that you merely kill monsters extremely slowly. However, before the great Controller nerf, one thing you do excel at is control - you can lock down considerably more than solo-size spawns, and do it for a long time. Your secondary wants team-mates, your primary wants team-mates to do the damage, and your primary provides control capacity for team-size spawns. Everything about this says this AT is designed to team, not to solo. It only has the option to solo, design-wise, in that you aren't actually prohibited from doing it. It is not in any sense "about the option to solo".

 

Don't let nostalgia blind you to reality. The City was ahead of the game for MMOs with one very solo-friendly AT and a great deal of content that could be soloed, but that didn't make it perfect, and the contrast between the blueside ATs and the redside ones drives home how it was flawed.

 

I think I'm done, so by all means write another rambling screed, make up another obviously-wrong number, and proclaim victory. Or take off the rose-tinted glasses.

[Burnt Toast]

Just now, thunderforce said:

(Bolding mine).

This is turning into a classic motte-and-bailey defence; when the expansive (and untrue) statement that the game "has always been about the option to solo" is challenged, you retreat into the much less dramatic business of pointing out it wasn't literally compulsory to be on a team any time you earned XP - which is true, but so what? It's true of any MMO, as far as I know, and it doesn't actually justify the expansive statement.

 

Let's look at the pre-Containment Controller. Most of your secondary doesn't even work on you, and if you happened to take Fire primary, until level 32 you have a slight advantage over most Controller primaries in that you merely kill monsters extremely slowly. However, before the great Controller nerf, one thing you do excel at is control - you can lock down considerably more than solo-size spawns, and do it for a long time. Your secondary wants team-mates, your primary wants team-mates to do the damage, and your primary provides control capacity for team-size spawns. Everything about this says this AT is designed to team, not to solo. It only has the option to solo, design-wise, in that you aren't actually prohibited from doing it. It is not in any sense "about the option to solo".

 

Don't let nostalgia blind you to reality. The City was ahead of the game for MMOs with one very solo-friendly AT and a great deal of content that could be soloed, but that didn't make it perfect, and the contrast between the blueside ATs and the redside ones drives home how it was flawed.

 

I think I'm done, so by all means write another rambling screed, make up another obviously-wrong number, and proclaim victory. Or take off the rose-tinted glasses.

The GAME has always been about the option to solo.. I did not say you could ALWAYS solo. Reading is fundamental. 

[Haijinx]

You can however solo all the Ouroborous arcs with a Stalker 

 

Since I did that.  

 

I imagine you could do it with most ATs  

 

[justicebeliever]

3 hours ago, thunderforce said:

Damage him? You might as well lick your monitor in the hope he will drown.

This had me laughing for quite a while...thanks for the chuckles...+1 Influence

 

[golstat2003]

On 4/12/2020 at 3:39 PM, Solarverse said:

That was not always the case. To be honest I miss when CoH was all about teaming and playing Solo wasn't exactly the ideal way to play.  😞

Ummm it still isn't. At any level I level faster while doing team content . . .

 

EDIT: If solo were the ideal way we would not have folks asking for DIB, DFB all day every day in LFG.

Edited April 13, 2020 by golstat2003

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

Ummm it still isn't. At any level I level faster while doing team content . . .

 

EDIT: If solo were the ideal way we would not have folks asking for DIB, DFB all day every day in LFG.

lol, got me there, golstat.

[thunderforce]

5 hours ago, Haijinx said:

You can however solo all the Ouroborous arcs with a Stalker

You certainly can do it _now_, but I think I can promise you with complete confidence you couldn't in the early years of the game.

 

(More seriously, the CoV ATs are, as said, much more solo-friendly on average - and invention slotting means even if arch-villains did turn up automatically solo, you could just fight them...)

[Chris24601]

Regarding “what about the AV at level 20 when you’re poor and badly built?”

 

Leave the mission aside, level up several times running easier content, then come back and curbstomp the grey conning AV.

 

That’s how I finally soloed the Envoy of Shadows on my first toon; a fire blaster; back in the days of i4 and it’s a tactic that works right up to the present day... if you can’t take a 49 EB (minimum difficulty) as a 50+1 anything with a tray of inspirations you’ve got way bigger problems than that.

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Regarding “what about the AV at level 20 when you’re poor and badly built?”

 

Leave the mission aside, level up several times running easier content, then come back and curbstomp the grey conning AV.

 

That’s how I finally soloed the Envoy of Shadows on my first toon; a fire blaster; back in the days of i4 and it’s a tactic that works right up to the present day... if you can’t take a 49 EB (minimum difficulty) as a 50+1 anything with a tray of inspirations you’ve got way bigger problems than that.

Of course if you are soloing arcs you will have more money for your build than if you are Teaming.

 

I made hundreds of millions just selling off Converters I bought with all the reward merits I had earned by the 30's 

  

[thunderforce]

4 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Regarding “what about the AV at level 20 when you’re poor and badly built?”

Leave the mission aside, level up several times running easier content, then come back and curbstomp the grey conning AV.

Fair point; I did some EBs like that back in the day on defenders - Frosty and that one on Striga come to mind. Unfortunately, I suspect with some ATs (in the early days) "several" is so many that this is of limited use - every time you do it you've got a story arc slot tied up for a long time, and hence it won't actually do for more than a fraction of the AVs out there.

 

It gets us the bailey of "technically soloable" but not the motte of "always about the solo option" - that it's technically possible sometimes doesn't change the way the early game was designed around effectively forced teaming and this was bad.

 

... which, briefly reapproaching the suggestion itself, is still why I think an AT so focused on teaming would be bad.

[Chris24601]

4 hours ago, thunderforce said:

... which, briefly reapproaching the suggestion itself, is still why I think an AT so focused on teaming would be bad.

Oh, I don’t disagree on that. A class without at least a required t1 attack can’t even reliably deal enough damage to deal with a -1/x0 mission.

 

The P2W attacks lack the accuracy and recharge needed to make them a sustainable attack chain leaving you basically Brawl and pool attacks... and if you’re selecting those you may as well have a primary or secondary set with real attacks in it.

 

By contrast, a support/assault (i.e. dominator secondary) based character would be something worth pursuing... though I’d rather see it done by proliferation of dominator secondaries to defenders and corruptors than building another AT.

 

For that matter an Assault/Armor option for Sentinels who want a mix of melee and ranged attacks in addition to reasonable protection would also be an interesting thing to see tried.

 

But doubling up on the same set category, particularly when neither has attacks, seems like a recipe for disaster... akin to someone running a “pure healer” empathy defender with the leadership toggles and only the t1 attack with no slots.