Copyrighted Generics Issues

[Doc_Scorpion]

16 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

See that is interesting.  I have a friend who is a photographer and often does "prints for time" jobs.  Sole reason he does this is to get his work out and has gotten several paying jobs because of it through word of mouth.

<puts on photographer hat>  That's because he's getting exposure inside a community, one where favors and recommendations get routinely traded back and forth.  (BTDT)  It's not even remotely the same as an artist or writer getting exposure to the general public in the vain hope that one individual out a million might track them down and buy something. </photographer hat>

[Hyperstrike]

10 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

This is only true for trademark, not copyright or patents. 

For CoH, this is both a trademark and copyright issue.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Hyperstrike

[Hyperstrike]

11 hours ago, ZacKing said:

Hang on a minute - why was it being kept secret?  Why the need for NDAs and all the secrecy about it?  Did the people running it have permission from the owner of the IP? Was the code purchased or given to them with permission?

Uhm, what?  You do know the code wasn't taken with permission, right? 

 

Uhm. DUH?  This is EXACTLY why it was kept secret.
They didn't want NC coming down on them like a ton of bricks.

 

11 hours ago, ZacKing said:

I get why they kept it secret and can't blame anyone for doing it.  But let's be honest here, you're arguing that stolen property is under less of a threat from the rightful owner of it than Disney?

No.  I'm arguing no such thing.

NC, ON ITS OWN, could decide to shut us down for any of a number of reasons.  Including no reason at all.

But drawing a LAWSUIT from Mouse House would DEFINITELY crap in their Cheerios and poison NC against the servers to the point of shutdown AS WELL.

Does NOBODY do nuance anymore?

[MunkiLord]

6 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

For CoH, this is both a trademark and patent issue.

What's the patent issue? 

[Hyperstrike]

11 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

That pretty much makes the point that it is very, very, very unlikely a Disney would even care about it.

This is blind hope.
 

11 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

  Also, "on retainer" does not in any way mean "free of charge".

Please point out where I intimated that "on retainer" means "free".

"On retainer" expressly means it's NOT free.

As the firm is BEING PAID REGARDLESS OF ACTIVITY.

[Hyperstrike]

2 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

What's the patent issue? 

Sorry, this should have read "trademark and copyright".

Some of the militant "something" here is starting to aggravate me and is making me sloppy.

[ShardWarrior]

3 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

This is blind hope.

Well no, I do not believe it is.  Being concerned that a Marvel or DC or Disney would file suit against a company who owns a long defunct IP because someone stole it from them and created a lookalike character is paranoia in my opinion.  Chances are far, far, far greater that NCSoft will shut the game down on a whim than anyone filing suit against them because of IP issues.  Sure, I suppose it is possible.  Getting struck by a stray meteor is possible too.  The chances are so remote it is not worth concern in my opinion.  If you feel otherwise, that is fine.  We can disagree on the seriousness or likelihood of the matter. 

[ShardWarrior]

4 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

<puts on photographer hat>  That's because he's getting exposure inside a community, one where favors and recommendations get routinely traded back and forth.  (BTDT)  It's not even remotely the same as an artist or writer getting exposure to the general public in the vain hope that one individual out a million might track them down and buy something. </photographer hat>

You made quite a lot of assumptions here.  You have no idea whether my friend whom I mentioned traded prints for time with.  He has done this several times for local businesses, animal shelters, schools and so forth.

[Haijinx]

Getting struck by a meteor is actually a certainty.   

 

On geologic time scales anyway.  

[ShardWarrior]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Getting struck by a meteor is actually a certainty.   

 

On geologic time scales anyway.  

None of use live on geologic time scales.

[Hyperstrike]

57 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Well no, I do not believe it is. 

Fine.

[ABlueThingy]

 

41 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Well no, I do not believe it is.  Being concerned that a Marvel or DC or Disney would file suit against a company who owns a long defunct IP because someone stole it from them and created a lookalike character is paranoia in my opinion.

Being worried that Disney would copy/paste a C/D letter and email it to NCsoft to tell them to tell us to cut it out isn't paranoia.  It's something they do routinely. It costs them nothing.

 

38 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

  Chances are far, far, far greater that NCSoft will shut the game down on a whim than anyone filing suit against them because of IP issues.

NCsoft is not the winds or waves.  It acts logically to protect itself.  Right now we're not a threat.  If NCsoft things we might court ANOTHER lawsuit they will drop the hammer.

 

39 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

 Getting struck by a stray meteor is possible too.  The chances are so remote it is not worth concern in my opinion.  If you feel otherwise, that is fine.  We can disagree on the seriousness or likelihood of the matter. 

This is something that has already happened in the past.  And now Marvel is owned by Disney, an even more lawsuit happy company. And we're under even LESS protections then we had with Paragon as everything here is already some level of illegal.

 

The meteor is a poor analogy.  All you can do is watch for one.  Because you don't know the angle or time or size you can't make concrete plans.  It's only ever happened once or twice in history.  There's nothing that you can do to lower the odds of being hit.  Or to raise the odds of being hit.  All you can do is build a bunker and hope if/when it hits you can mitigate the damage.

 

But we're not talking about the rare, one in a billion cases.  And again we're not talking about forces of nature. We're talking about something that happens routinely.  That already happened to us specifically.  With known causes and effects.  We know why they act the way they do, we know what will trigger the event.

 

This isn't a lightning strike or meteor falling where only paranoid people worry about it.  This is sticking a fork in a light socket.  This is people arguing they should be able to stick a fork in anything because "What are the odds that THIS hole is a light socket" and we're sitting here telling you "We already did that once and got shocked"  And the fork people are like "But it wasn't that bad AND it was a long time ago, I'm sure light sockets are different now"

 

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

  We can disagree on the seriousness or likelihood of the matter. 

I'm not even saying it's super likely.  I'm not saying that if you make SuperDuper-Man420 then tomorrow the game will be shut down.  I'm saying the threat goes up.  Maybe it doesn't go up much.  Maybe.  You remember that bored game?  Don't wake Daddy?  You try to get around the bored and every so often land on a space that makes you push a button on a toy alarm clock part X number of times.  And there's a small chance the buzzer goes off and you have to go back to start.(I think I've never actually played it my brain is just full of 90s popculture)

 

My point is just... stop pushing the button.  We already got buzzed once.  We know it CAN happen.  We don't know how likely it is.  Only that continuing to hit the button makes it more likely.  Maybe it will take a hundred pushes.  Maybe ten thousand.  Maybe a million!  Or maybe it takes four.  But we know that if you keep pushing it it will eventually ring.  It costs you nothing to stop.  So stop.

 

39 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Well no, I do not believe it is. ... is paranoia in my opinion.  ... Sure, I suppose it is possible. ... in my opinion. ... We can disagree on the seriousness or likelihood of the matter. 

This is sorta the point.  You can have an "opinion" on this because it costs you nothing.

 

HC devs see this being at least likely enough to have GMs guard against it.  Because if you're wrong then they are the ones that have to eat it.

 

 

----

36 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

You made quite a lot of assumptions here.  You have no idea whether my friend whom I mentioned traded prints for time with.  He has done this several times for local businesses, animal shelters, schools and so forth.

Wouldn't that be the definition of "in a community?"  Doesn't the rest follow from there?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ShardWarrior]

5 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

This is something that has already happened in the past. 

To try and milk someone for money because they were on the verge of bankruptcy.  This is no longer the case.  But whatever, if you want to worry about it, more power to you.

5 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

Wouldn't that be the definition of "in a community?"  Doesn't the rest follow from there?

I could be wrong, however I believe they meant the photographer community.  Sharing prints for time is fairly common in those circles.

[ABlueThingy]

3 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

To try and milk someone for money because they were on the verge of bankruptcy.  This is no longer the case.  But whatever, if you want to worry about it, more power to you.

When it was just Marvel, yes.  It's not just marvel now.  It's Disney.  Who needs no excuse to hurt people.

 

Didn't they get caught spying on children recently?

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, ABlueThingy said:

When it was just Marvel, yes.  It's not just marvel now.  It's Disney. 

Disney is nowhere near strapped for cash like Marvel was at the time.

[ABlueThingy]

Just now, ShardWarrior said:

Disney is nowhere near strapped for cash like Marvel was at the time.

I never said Disney was strapped for cash.

 

I think they have more money then most countries at this point

 

[ShardWarrior]

14 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

I never said Disney was strapped for cash.

 

I think they have more money then most countries at this point

 

So trying to compare a bankrupt company suing out of desperation for cash is not the same thing.

[ABlueThingy]

41 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

So trying to compare a bankrupt company suing out of desperation for cash is not the same thing.

Only if I'm saying their motivations are the same.  And I'm not.

 

Marvel once sued over IP infringement because they were being petty and desperate. Disney sues people all the time over IP infringement because... they are Disney and it's what they do.

 

A tiger attacks out of hunger, fear, anger or maybe even boredom.  It doesn't really matter to the prey. Just because this time the tiger is well fed doesn't mean it's safe to go into the cage.

 

[ShardWarrior]

19 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

Marvel once sued over IP infringement because they were being petty and desperate. Disney sues people all the time over IP infringement because... they are Disney and it's what they do.

Disney sues when others are trying to profit off of their property without permission and rightfully so.  If you have an actual case where Disney sued just to be mean and cruel to someone because they can or brought a case out of boredom for kicks, by all means share it.   Disney is a company extremely dedicated to their public image and brand. and I have no objection to them protecting their property. 

 

People who keep bringing up the prior lawsuit also keep neglecting to mention that it was settled out of court and by all reports, Marvel really did not have much of a case.  The whole issue of whether having close approximations of characters in a videogame like CoH was never tested in the courts back them.  The legal analysts who brought up the "crayon" argument I believe had a very compelling argument that still holds true today.

 

This is just my opinion here, perhaps this whole issue of copyright being decided in the courts is something that does need to happen.  Not here on Homecoming specifically, but somewhere.  Companies like Disney, Marvel, WB, CBS and other copyright holders who throw so much money at lobbyists to get copyrights extended into perpetuity are doing far more damage than good in my opinion.  This is stifling creativity and imagination, and that is not a good thing.

 

 

 

[ABlueThingy]

14 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

This is stifling creativity and imagination, and that is not a good thing.

 

There have always been limits on what you can make.  Instead of removing the costume options the Devs have always asked that people exercise some level of judgement.  Don't do things that could get us shut down is a pretty low bar for people's imaginations to clear.

[Doc_Scorpion]

3 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

You made quite a lot of assumptions here.  You have no idea whether my friend whom I mentioned traded prints for time with.  He has done this several times for local businesses, animal shelters, schools and so forth.

Whether or not I made assumptions is utterly irrelevant - because the principle involved remains the same.  Your friend is working on an individual, personal basis.  That's not even remotely the same as your work being seen by the general public on a global and all but anonymous basis.  One does not scale into the other.

[ShardWarrior]

10 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

There have always been limits on what you can make.  Instead of removing the costume options the Devs have always asked that people exercise some level of judgement.  Don't do things that could get us shut down is a pretty low bar for people's imaginations to clear.

I was not even talking about the game.  Might want to read my post again.  Context is important.

[Seed22]

People will argue till the end of days just because they're too lazy to be creative. Damn that's sad honestly, as it's kinda what this game is about.

[ShardWarrior]

8 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Whether or not I made assumptions is utterly irrelevant - because the principle involved remains the same.  Your friend is working on an individual, personal basis.  That's not even remotely the same as your work being seen by the general public on a global and all but anonymous basis.  One does not scale into the other.

Of course it is the same.  There were a couple of times customers walked into a restaurant he had done some work for and saw his name under the photos he had taken.  They contacted him and it led to paying work. 

[ABlueThingy]

19 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Disney sues when others are trying to profit off of their property without permission and rightfully so.  If you have an actual case where Disney sued just to be mean and cruel to someone because they can or brought a case out of boredom for kicks, by all means share it.   Disney is a company extremely dedicated to their public image and brand. and I have no objection to them protecting their property. 

Disney is absolutely a cruel organization.  If you want me to present to you a lawsuit where Disney filed and said "We're suing this guy because we're jerks" I'm not going to be able to do that.  If you want examples of Disney being frankly inhumanly cruel to people I can find you tons.  If you want examples of hypocritical lawsuits Disney filed I can do that.  If you want examples of lawsuits Disney really didn't need to file I can get that.

 

19 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

People who keep bringing up the prior lawsuit also keep neglecting to mention that it was settled out of court and by all reports, Marvel really did not have much of a case.  The whole issue of whether having close approximations of characters in a videogame like CoH was never tested in the courts back them.  The legal analysts who brought up the "crayon" argument I believe had a very compelling argument that still holds true today.

 

Marvel ran a poor case, however we all pointed out at the time that they COULD have made a stronger case and failed to do so. 

 

But again, it doesn't matter.  I'm still not even talking about Disney suing HC directly. Or even necessarily going after NCSoft. I'm saying if NCsoft thinks for a moment that Disney might consider going after them for letting us exist.  They will throw us under the bus.

 

  I'm saying all it takes is for NCsoft to "be a little worried" that Disney might take action.  Disney, the people known for going after anyone and everyone to protect it's IPs.  Disney, known for casually send people "Request for summary judgements" and "Cease and desist" over relatively minor things.  They already stretched their necks out by letting us operate as it is.  Frankly as trigger happy as NCsoft was in the past to kill private servers I dunno what magic HC used to get them to leave us alone so far.

-----------------

 

2 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I was not even talking about the game.  Might want to read my post again.  Context is important.

You just mean copyright/trademark law in general?  If I had the power I would instantly reset the laws back to prior to Disney's meddling in them.

 

Also with my newfound unlimited legal powers I would smash Disney into a thousand thousand pieces such that they could never recover.

 

Seriously the research I've done for this thread has given me a new level of hatred for Disney