ATO procs: Bring non Scrapper/Stalkers up to par

[nihilii]

On 4/24/2020 at 3:03 PM, Indystruck said:

Dom's chance for +DMG is also pretty anemic, eating a small red is arguably twice as good.

The Superior version does +21% DMG, stacks 3 times and has a PPM of 6 (in layman's terms: will go off everytime in your ST hold). It's closer to perma Rage than to a small red, and for free. This ATO is what enables (some) Dominators to deal Blaster level damage.

IMHO, the real problem with this IO lie in the animation time disparity in ST holds, and/or the discrepancy in which Dom powers you can slot Dom ATOs.

 

On 4/24/2020 at 3:03 PM, Indystruck said:

Corruptors get +Health/+End on one of their procs, but Defenders just get +Health on their equivalent version, for unclear reasons. I'd like for Defenders to get the same Health/End at the least.

Corruptor's is 3 PPM, Defender's is 5 PPM. Would not trade -2 PPM for +END. The Defender proc is very useful in getting high damage healless builds to be sustainable, as it's a near guaranteed proc on the higher tier blasts.

[Indystruck]

The point is more that these aren't performing at the level of the Scrapper/Stalker sets. I didn't take into consideration the PPM, though, you're right. In that case bumping the Corr up would be nice as well.

[Galaxy Brain]

44 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

The point is more that these aren't performing at the level of the Scrapper/Stalker sets. I didn't take into consideration the PPM, though, you're right. In that case bumping the Corr up would be nice as well.

I do agree that those two ATs get absolute gamechangers as opposed to everyone else. Their ATOs a tually change how they play, while everyone else just sort of gets a "perk".

 

We need more of that.

[Vanden]

Let's think about this. There's 26 set of ATOs in the game, yet 4 of them are being claimed to be much better than the rest. Does that sound like we should consider those 4 sets to be the "par" level?

[ScarySai]

2 hours ago, parabola said:

Doesn't energy font draw aggro?

I don't think they do, it's just that when you overdraw mobs past the target cap, or root something next to them, that the AI tends to take a swap at the nearest thing it possibly can.

Edited April 26, 2020 by ScarySai

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

Let's think about this. There's 26 set of ATOs in the game, yet 4 of them are being claimed to be much better than the rest. Does that sound like we should consider those 4 sets to be the "par" level?

I think so because they are by and large the gold standard of "your AT lvls up when you slot these", and they are mostly agnostic to your theme or even power selections.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Vanden]

11 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I think so because they are by and large the gold standard of "your AT lvls up when you slot these", and they are mostly agnostic to your theme or even power selections.

"Par" and "gold standard" do not mean the same thing.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

"Par" and "gold standard" do not mean the same thing.

No, but this is a case where there are examples of ATOs that really hit it out of the park when it comes to how they affect the AT, while others do not. The closest that comes to mind if the +Fury proc for brutes that actually effects the AT mechanics.

[Peerless Girl]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

Let's think about this. There's 26 set of ATOs in the game, yet 4 of them are being claimed to be much better than the rest. Does that sound like we should consider those 4 sets to be the "par" level?

 

Given the Inf Price of getting these ATOs, yeah I think I'd rather see the others brought up, than those brought down. That or the cost of the ATOs brought down.

[Vanden]

33 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

No, but this is a case where there are examples of ATOs that really hit it out of the park when it comes to how they affect the AT, while others do not. The closest that comes to mind if the +Fury proc for brutes that actually effects the AT mechanics.

I don't see it. They let you get more crits, they're basically damage procs of another flavor. If anything they restrict how you should play your AT, since when they go off it means you have to avoid using any powers that don't get proper criticals to get the most use out of them.

[Infinitum]

You have 3 of them out which is easy to do, it effectively maintains an extra level of lockdown to the mobs.  2 mag pulsing stun that stacks with a 15 ft radius, multiplied by 3-5 thats a useful power for a controller IMO because it controls.

[Galaxy Brain]

16 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I don't see it. They let you get more crits, they're basically damage procs of another flavor. If anything they restrict how you should play your AT, since when they go off it means you have to avoid using any powers that don't get proper criticals to get the most use out of them.

The Scrapper ATO's do the following:

• Directly boost your inherent ability, straight up (The passive one)
• When activated, give you a window where your inherent is greatly boosted (proc one)

Both of these allow the Scrapper to be more scrapper-y, and do far more than a mere damage proc. If you're complaining that activating the proc then using Reconstruction is a waste... thats like saying the same thing for Build Up + Non damage power.

 

 

The Stalker ATO's do the following:

• Allow you to re-hide after a successful proc (recycles the stalker core damage loop)
• Allow you to re-use Build Up after a successful proc (recycles another core damage loop)

These both let the stalker push their inherit "set up for big damage strikes" playstyle.

 

Other ATO's don't really do the same where there are random Damage procs, or the like. Something like +Damage on Controlled enemies for Controller,s or +Rech on Domination for Dominators would be more equivalent.

[Indystruck]

28 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I don't see it. They let you get more crits, they're basically damage procs of another flavor. If anything they restrict how you should play your AT, since when they go off it means you have to avoid using any powers that don't get proper criticals to get the most use out of them.

That's, what, Concentrated Strike (which refreshes buildup on "crit" but doesn't do extra damage), Lightning Rod (psuedopet), Hemoglobin, (doesn't behave properly on crit, but does crit), and Combo Finishers (don't do full damage crits, scale off base). Which is like, 6 abilities? And I suppose Energy Transfer on stalkers, too.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Indystruck

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The Scrapper ATO's do the following:

• Directly boost your inherent ability, straight up (The passive one)
• When activated, give you a window where your inherent is greatly boosted (proc one)

Both of these allow the Scrapper to be more scrapper-y, and do far more than a mere damage proc. If you're complaining that activating the proc then using Reconstruction is a waste... thats like saying the same thing for Build Up + Non damage power.

 

 

The Stalker ATO's do the following:

• Allow you to re-hide after a successful proc (recycles the stalker core damage loop)
• Allow you to re-use Build Up after a successful proc (recycles another core damage loop)

These both let the stalker push their inherit "set up for big damage strikes" playstyle.

 

Other ATO's don't really do the same where there are random Damage procs, or the like. Something like +Damage on Controlled enemies for Controller,s or +Rech on Domination for Dominators would be more equivalent.

I think the ATO benefits do what they are supposed to do, from the ones I have experienced anyway.

 

The reason the stalker scrapper ones seem better is because damage is king and most noticeable.

 

That in and of itself doesn't mean the other ones aren't working as intended, just aren't as noticeable with the games current corralled focus.

[Vanden]

6 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The Scrapper ATO's do the following:

• Directly boost your inherent ability, straight up (The passive one)
• When activated, give you a window where your inherent is greatly boosted (proc one)

Both of these allow the Scrapper to be more scrapper-y, and do far more than a mere damage proc. If you're complaining that activating the proc then using Reconstruction is a waste... thats like saying the same thing for Build Up + Non damage power.

 

 

The Stalker ATO's do the following:

• Allow you to re-hide after a successful proc (recycles the stalker core damage loop)
• Allow you to re-use Build Up after a successful proc (recycles another core damage loop)

These both let the stalker push their inherit "set up for big damage strikes" playstyle.

 

Other ATO's don't really do the same where there are random Damage procs, or the like. Something like +Damage on Controlled enemies for Controller,s or +Rech on Domination for Dominators would be more equivalent.

It's still just more damage. You're still just clicking the next attack in your chain regardless of if the procs go off or not.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

It's still just more damage. You're still just clicking the next attack in your chain regardless of if the procs go off or not.

its not just more damage

 

Those ATO's *directly feed into the AT's play-style and/or Inherent*

 

Other ATO's for other ATs give a +Heal/+End/+Absorb/Etc proc which can be found in other uniques. Others get a damage proc which while nice, is nowhere near as game-changing as refreshing build up or a bigger base crit chance on ALL attacks. What makles these stand out is not simply they do damage, but they support the AT's game plan in a unique way.

 

Examples of better ATO's:

• Controller: Replace the Psy Damage proc with a global +Psy Damage with containment
• Dominator: Replace Fiery Orb with +Chance to recharge Domination
• Blaster: Replace the chance of Mez Protection on attack with maybe like just a flat 4pts protection, or a massive stat boost (could be whatever) if you are mezzed in "Defiance"
• etc

 

 

[Vanden]

6 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

its not just more damage

 

Those ATO's *directly feed into the AT's play-style and/or Inherent*

How is getting more criticals, which you have no control over, not just more damage?

[Indystruck]

You can control when you get a bonus critical period, though, based on what power you have that ATO slotted in.

[Galaxy Brain]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

How is getting more criticals, which you have no control over, not just more damage?

You do have control in both these cases. The Hide proc guarantees the next attack is a crit, or at least 50/50 on an AoE. The Scrapper proc can be placed in a reliable power so that you can accurately gamble the follow-up attacks should crit. 

 

Sure, these are both more damage but the way you access the +Damage is thematic to the way the characters play and requires forethought by the player. They actually use the AT's inherent powers which other ATO's rarely do.

 

Any thoughts on making the other ATO's similarly thematic and interactive? 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[SaddestGhost]

9 minutes ago, Vanden said:

It's still just more damage. You're still just clicking the next attack in your chain regardless of if the procs go off or not.

True, they are more damage, but they leave the application of it in your hands.  Coming out of Hide, you've got the choice of single target heavy hitter or AoE or which enemy is the one that you really need to defeat.  Likewise you'll be choosy with when you fire off your next Build up.  The stalker ATOs, I would say, at least loop back into the decisions you're making as you play the AT and that's what makes them so enjoyable.

 

If the controller ATO popped up a buff that told me I had increased mag for a few seconds, I'd most definitely slot it.  While also improving the role I play on teams, it encourages me to think about what I'll do next.

[ApatheticWizard]

5 hours ago, nihilii said:

The Superior version does +21% DMG, stacks 3 times and has a PPM of 6 (in layman's terms: will go off everytime in your ST hold). It's closer to perma Rage than to a small red, and for free. This ATO is what enables (some) Dominators to deal Blaster level damage.

IMHO, the real problem with this IO lie in the animation time disparity in ST holds, and/or the discrepancy in which Dom powers you can slot Dom ATOs.

The issue is you're cheesing yourself out of actual damage trying to play upkeep the damage buff by having to spamming your ST hold to maintain that actual meaningful percent-damage increase. What good is Rage if the only two powers you can use in the set otherwise is Jab and Punch?

 

56 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I don't see it. They let you get more crits, they're basically damage procs of another flavor. If anything they restrict how you should play your AT, since when they go off it means you have to avoid using any powers that don't get proper criticals to get the most use out of them.

It's literally the core feature of the AT, how is that "forcing you" to play a specific style? You should have not picked the Scrapper if you don't want to play the crit game. That aside, it's exceptionally easy to force out the Scrapper "free crits" proc using a number of powers across the different sets, any AoE with a moderately long recharge (Most higher-tiered power-picks in melee sets) will let you control activation of the critical mode to go ham thereafter.

Edited April 26, 2020 by ApatheticWizard
forgot to give example for rage comparison

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Any thoughts on making the other ATO's similarly thematic and interactive? 

The tanker ones accomplish this well I think.  It increases their durability which is what you want for a tanker.

 

I think the controller ones are fine too honestly.  I've recently taken up controllers as a focus, and energy font is getting a bad image, you can definately tell when they are out in terms of controlling the mobs especially if you strategically slot it to where you get many rolls to get more than one out cause they stack.

 

I'd have to actually pay attention to the rest to base an opinion.  lol

[ApatheticWizard]

22 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

The tanker ones accomplish this well I think.  It increases their durability which is what you want for a tanker.

 

I think the controller ones are fine too honestly.  I've recently taken up controllers as a focus, and energy font is getting a bad image, you can definately tell when they are out in terms of controlling the mobs especially if you strategically slot it to where you get many rolls to get more than one out cause they stack.

 

I'd have to actually pay attention to the rest to base an opinion.  lol

The tanker Res proc does fit well, and the absorb shield is pretty handy if you slot it in a consistently proccing power (Such as Crushing Uppercut in StJ since you hold to use it with combo-points). But, there is the issue that the +Res proc can be kind of pointless depending on the Primary set being used. I think there should be a +Defense proc to go along with it for the sets that can't utilize the +Res.

On Controllers Energy Font just kind of...flails around and aggros extra mobs and/or dies unless you're using it in conjunction with your big recharge controls, which cuts into how often you can really use them. The only power I've consistently had more than 2 Fonts out at a time(The bare minimum before they actually become useful) with is Arctic Air, which is the only saving grace to the proc in my testing and experience. A better solution would be to instead of summoning a pet with the durability of tissue paper is to add something to the effect of Contaminate from Radiation Melee, anchoring the effects of the Font on a target that persists like toggle-debuffs on corpses in case the proc occurs on something like a minion, rather than an uncontrolled pet.

Edited April 26, 2020 by ApatheticWizard

[Clam Leader]

So my big issue with the other ATOs is they do nothing to enhance the gameplay experience of the other ATs. Scrappers, Stalkers, and then to a lesser extent MMs and Brutes. All have unique ways to modify or enhance the gameplay. Having played almost every AT as a fully IOd 50. I can safely say, it is fun and exciting when my scrappers crit buff goes off, and to enhance that further, I can manipulate my attack chain to line up my big hits during that buff if I place the proc into a mid range attack that gets it to fire off frequently while not wasting one of my heavy hitters.

 

This sort of interaction and fun is completely lacking from a majority of the ATOs, when one of my defenders gets a heal proc, most of the time I couldn't care less. When my Dominator gets a Fiery Orb, its ... sort of noticed? Maybe. 

 

What we need, is not stronger or more powerful ATOs for other ATs, though that would not hurt. Is more interesting ATO effects. Make blasters ST attacks have a chance to splash to nearby enemies, give Defenders a team wide +10% damage buff proc that stacks and announce it in big flashy red font for the entire team to see it wont be game breaking anymore then Assault, but it adds to the excitement of the game. Not this boring damage proc crap, sure at the end of the day all these effects are just more damage more healing, etc, etc. But make them unique, flavorful, and more importantly, fun.

[SaddestGhost]

35 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I think the controller ones are fine too honestly.  I've recently taken up controllers as a focus, and energy font is getting a bad image, you can definately tell when they are out in terms of controlling the mobs especially if you strategically slot it to where you get many rolls to get more than one out cause they stack.

I have multiple issues with the controller ones and you've hit on one of them.  Most put them in an AoE immobilize and spam that power.  That, of course, isn't an option for Mind and Illusion.  Plant and Fire, which already sit near the top of the pack for control sets, have bonus damage in those powers and this incentives their frequent use even more.  For others it encourages a game play style that is somewhat detrimental to team play, often locking mobs in scattered formations because they've jumped to utilize those powers before enemies are neatly gathered.

 

I also question why the heck Energy Orb was given a stun.  It stacks nicely with Fire (again), Earth, and Dark, but as a mag 1 stun it does very little for other sets.  When every set has a hold, why wasn't this the default choice to make it more equitable?