Monos King & Galaxy Brain's Mastermind Changes

[Galaxy Brain]

2 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Necro/Traps has Detonator ...  💣

Thats 1 combo and is not up often enough to really get a ton of em out 😕

 

As is, it is somewhat of a pain to get a Ghost out since you need a pet to die, which also makes you go through  the resummon process all over again.

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Monos King]

Seems like ghost was added because they wanted to fit in a thematic addition while maintaining the general MM format, but those clashed and you end up with a practically inefficient power that doesn't feel like the life-blood of being a necromancer nor a significant pet. But speaking of traps, turning ghosts into a situationally powerful ability much like trip mines (scaling on how much death have you caused) makes it far more entertaining and useful. Becomes a hard endurance pit if not careful though.

[Galaxy Brain]

Ok, we gotta talk Bots.

 

Pulse Rifle Burst --> Pulse Rifle Blast --> Pulse Rifle Blast is the best Attack chain on SO's the MM can personally get, and comes up with 34.25 DPS which is lower than the other sets so far, but it also only costs 2.8 EPS to run. But still, Necro deals 1.9x as much damage for 1.8x the cost, and Beasts deal 1.4x the damage for 1.28x the cost.

 

Anyhwo, I want to cut to the chase here:

 

Summary	DPS	%
Mastermind	34.25	24.44%
Battle Drones	26.76	19.09%
Prot Bots	43.7	31.18%
Assault Bot	35.45	25.29%
Total	140.16

 

Compared to Beasts and Necro.... yikes. Lets see how they perform with our proposed changes:

 

New Summary	DPS	%
Mastermind	48.38	23.35%
Battle Drones	47.5	22.93%
Prot Bots	66.45	32.08%
Assault Bot	44.84	21.64%
Total	207.17	= 48% increase

 

 

Of special note, I want to talk about the Battle Drones. Their Full Auto Laser animates in a whopping 6.33 seconds.

Keeping them at range, as many of us do, will total them out at 26.76 DPS. 

Putting them in melee range so they can use their unique Smash attack bumps this to 32.60 DPS

Putting them in melee, and SKIPPING THE T2 UPGRADE bumps them again to 37.44 DPS, an increase of nearly 40%

 

With our proposed upgrades, these values become 47.5 DPS from range, and 53.95 DPS from melee, and 48.95 DPS if you skip the Full Auto laser in melee. 

 

Given their change to be more of a ranged pet, I feel that their DPS being notably better in melee range is something that should be changed. The Assault bot may be similar here, but honestly the carnage it can dish out is fine, its really the Battle Drones and Protector Bots that may need love here.

[Redlynne]

10 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Their Full Auto Laser animates in a whopping 6.33 seconds.

That's because of the legacy Full Auto power of Assault Rifle, which Mooks and Family also use with their Tommy Guns.  It's basically the "older" version of the power.

Contrast that with the Heavy Burst power used by Arachnos Soldiers which does essentially the same thing in less than half the animation time.

 

Here's the difference between the two:

 

Full Auto (Blaster)

Cast time	4 seconds

   17 * 10.13 Lethal damage every 0.2s over 3.3s

 

Heavy Burst (Soldier of Arachnos)

Cast time	2.67 seconds

   7 * 8.66 Lethal damage every 0.3s over 2s

 

The "obvious" solution is to modify the Full Auto Laser so as to cut the animation time in half and just double the damage per damage tick (and just do half the ticks).

Kind of makes you wonder how ... difficult ... that would be to do.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Redlynne

[Galaxy Brain]

17 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Kind of makes you wonder how ... difficult ... that would be to do.

Considering how @Captain Powerhouse was able to edit Dominator assault powers/shadow maul in similar ways, I think stuff like "make It faster + alter ticks" should be doable.

[Tiklandian]

My main complaint is how slow they are.

 

My team finishes killing groups and they still have not caught up......pointless at endgame except for solo.

[Galaxy Brain]

Ok, merc time

 

Summary	DPS	%
Mastermind	53.76	28.06%
Soldiers	27.13	14.16%
Spec Ops	31	16.18%
Commando	32.01	16.71%
Total	143.9

 

Hey look at that, they outdo Bots a bit! 😛 

 

What is surprising here is that the simple chain of  Burst -->  Slug -->  Burst -->  Burst outdoes every Pet Tier by a significant margin....

 

Lets apply our fixes:

 

 

NEW	DPS	%
Mastermind	61.82	31.12%
Soldiers	44.13	22.21%
Spec Ops	38.90	19.58%
Commando	50.50	25.42%
Field Specialist	3.30
Total	198.65	= 38% boost

 

 

+Vengeance	DPS	%
Mastermind	53.76	27.06%
Soldiers	49.54	24.94%
Spec Ops	43.85	22.07%
Commando	56.32	28.35%
Field Specialist	3.30
Total	206.77	= 44% boost

 

 

 

With added damage to each tier, and some DPS boosters in the form of a Shred Grenade from the Commando, and Serum from the Field Specialist (averaged) we see a decent bump in DPS overall. However the bigger thing to note is that our changes to the attack cycles of the Spec Ops and Commando will improve AoE coverage drastically:

 

Tear Gas goes from 1 per cycle to 2 

Flash Bang goes from 2 per cycle to 3 

Full Auto goes from 3 per cycle to 6

LRM Rocket goes from 1 per cycle to 3

 

More AoE damage and Control more often is a huge boon, on top of the new Field Specialist boosting their resistances and defenses even further would make Mercs have a solid niche as the set that can debilitate enemies both with control and debuffs, mow down trash, and snowball their own defenses to be a very versatile and tanky choice... if not the most damaging. Their unique debuffs and control will help them tremendously in a team setting, as will the Field Specialist's buffs. 

 

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

Ok, I've been able to go through and gather data on all the Pet DPS per set given the actual rotations they use!

 

The following will showcase the DPS of each set with 95% damage enhancement on the pets, along with the 25% from supremacy, and any buffs (Enforcer Leadership, Pack mentality, etc) or debuffs (Demon -Res, etc) relevant to the sets that can be attained naturally. Also included are relevant lvl 18 powers such as Smoke Flash, HoE, Etc, to the totals. The ST damage is straight forward the DPS on a single entity, while the AoE dps is the damage spread out to a group that accounts for the max practical targets per attack (this was tricky, but using the area formula you can get a rather accurate idea of how certain cones/areas could hit targets in a practical setting. For example the Soldier Full Auto has a target cap of 10, but with how narrow the cone is it is more likely you hit about 5-6). Values are also shown for +0 and +4 lvl encounters.

 

 

    

 

   

 

Putting it together as a ranking between ST, AoE, and 0-4 performance:

 

 

We have the above ranking for damage output at the least. We have three distinct tiers with some wiggle room between:

 

A Tier: Demons

Self explanatory, they cover a variety of damage types as well as have great debuffs which mix in well with their raw damage output. The debuffs allow them to be exceptional at ST DPS, and they are no slouch at AoE DPS as they are only behind the two sets that can ignite the battlefield with layered burns.

 

B Tier: Thugs / Beasts / Bots = Ninjas

Overall these 4 sets have similar performance across the spectrum, with Thugs getting a slight edge, and Beasts being a *little* better than Bots and Ninjas. Beasts are sort of "middle" of each segment which puts them in a great spot damage-wise, Ninjas are a worse Demons in terms of ST and AoE potential, and likewise Robots are a worse Thugs with their saving grace beign the Assault Bot's scaling vs +4 targets allowing optimal AoE performance.

 

C Tier: Necro // Mercs

Necromancy is a bit odd, as it sacrifices damage for a great deal of control and debuffing, as shown here where it's middling ST performance and poor AoE bring it down. Mercs however are on another level where they are bottom of the barrel in every slot except +4 AoE thanks to the Commando's scaling. These two sets are actually quite similar where they appear to be designed to have more control or debuffing instead of raw damage. While Necro has the Lich with multiple AoE controls, and strong ST debuffs throughout the tiers, Mercs really only has the two Spec Ops which have controls on very low usage 😞

 

 

Lets take a look at how they fare with @Monos King and I's suggestions:

 

   

 

   

 

For reference, a global change was the addition of a +1 level shift to the T1 pets which accounts for a decent boost to damage and Debuff output. At a glance, the actual output of each set seems a bit tighter than before with fewer large "gaps" between them.

 

 

Necro's changes to have many more ghosts + additional *conditional damage from the Lich add up fast to allow it to do much better vs +4 content than before, as well as snowball into an ST powerhouse if you are able to maintain your undead army. Likewise, the gap between Thugs, Bots, and Beasts have lessened to be roughly even in output.

 

Ninjas are left behind somewhat with only changes to their defenses being proposed, which in context of the actual attack rotations makes other sets possibly a bit over-buffed.

 

Even with the proposed changes, Mercs are still the least damaging primary (outside of +4 AoE being "OK"). Luckily our changes also make them incredibly durable while at least making their DPS competitive instead of purely anemic.

 

 

Next up would be actually measuring that utility and durability per primary to compare against their DPS for a "proper" ranking.

 

 

 

[Redlynne]

Those numbers for Mercenaries are just jaw dropping to the point of being PAINFUL.

1/2 ... 1/3 ... 1/4 ... the damage production of other primary powersets.  That's just flat out gimptacular awful.

 

Which then begs the question ... which secondaries (if any) leverage Mercenaries to advantage better than others, thanks to what the secondary brings to the mix?

[Monos King]

22 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Those numbers for Mercenaries are just jaw dropping to the point of being PAINFUL.

1/2 ... 1/3 ... 1/4 ... the damage production of other primary powersets.  That's just flat out gimptacular awful.

It's not even just damage; if their CC capabilities were even moderate they would be fine where they are in exchange. Every aspect of mercs is just failing to accomplish it's assumed specialty.

 

Any of the particularly effective secondaries like time or dark can at the very least give them survivability, as they would any primary. Mercs don't have particularly noteworthy compatibility besides perhaps traps for the layered debuffs and CC.

[Redlynne]

Actually, I'll take it even further at this point.

If the only parameters that could be changed for Mercenaries were the recharge times for the Mercs powers ... what ought those recharge times be changed TO in order to give them better attack rotations?

 

Soldier		Acc	AT	Rch	End	Rng	Arc	Rad	Dmg	Special
Theoretical DPS	Brawl	1	0.67	16	4.37				21.02
9.11	Assault Rifle Burst	1.1	2.2	4	5.2	80			19.26	-Def
	Assault Rifle Heavy Burst	1.1	2.67	8	8.53	80			31.86	-Def
	Assault Rifle Auto Fire	1.1	6	16	10.19	80	5		40.11	-Def
Medic
Theoretical DPS	Brawl	1	0.67	16	4.37				21.02
5.20	Med Kit	1	3.17	20	5.2	25			0.00	Heal
	SMG Heavy Burst	1	2.67	6	4.37	70			26.88	-Def
	Stimulant	1	3.17	15	10.4	25			0.00	Mez Prot
	Frag Grenade	1	1.87	16	14	80		15	15.96	KB
Spec Ops
Theoretical DPS	Brawl	1	0.67	16	4.37				25.69
12.08	SCAR Burst	1.15	2.2	3	4.37	100			21.78	-Def
	SCAR Heavy Burst	1.15	2.67	6	6.86	100			34.56	-Def
	Web Grenade	1	1.87	30	7.8	70			0.00	Immob, Slow
	SCAR Snipe	1.2	3.83	16	6.86	150			49.05	-Def
Commando
Theoretical DPS	Brawl	1	0.67	16	4.37				30.36
20.59	Burst	1.05	2.2	4	5.2	80			33.04	-Def
	Slug	1.05	1.87	8	8.53	80			50.16	KB
	Buckshot	1.05	1.87	8	10.19	40	30		27.83	KB
	Full Auto	1.35	6	60	15.6	80	20		87.21
	M30 Grenade	1.05	1.87	16	15.18	70		15	27.53	KB
	Flamethrower	1.1	3.5	20	15.6	40	40		59.20
	LRM Rocket	1.05	3.83	240	18.2	150		15	76.16	KB

 

 

Bear in mind that the recharge times assigned are the base recharge times that were used for PC powers where the expectation was that recharge enhancement (not to mention global recharge enhancement!) could reduce those times.  Mastermind Pets are completely, totally and utterly immune to recharge buffing and debuffing, so the numbers locked in here are what they're stuck with.

 

I'm thinking that if Mercenaries weren't saddled with so many long recharge powers their attack chains would necessarily improve somewhat dramatically.

 

So ... THE CHALLENGE.

 

By changing ONLY the recharge parameters in the above table of info pulled from HERE ... how much of a (necessary!) improvement can be made to the offensive performance of Mercenaries?

 

---

 

Here is what *I* would do as a first order iteration pass to improve Mercenaries attack chains purely through twiddling the recharge parameters on their Pet powers.

Edits to the above chart are highlighted in bold+italics.

 

Soldier		Acc	AT	Rch	End	Rng	Arc	Rad	Dmg	Special
Theoretical DPS	Brawl	1	0.67	16	4.37				21.02
9.11	Assault Rifle Burst	1.1	2.2	3	5.2	80			19.26	-Def
	Assault Rifle Heavy Burst	1.1	2.67	6	8.53	80			31.86	-Def
	Assault Rifle Auto Fire	1.1	6	12	10.19	80	20		40.11	-Def
Medic
Theoretical DPS	Brawl	1	0.67	16	4.37				21.02
5.20	Med Kit	1	3.17	16	5.2	25			0.00	Heal
	SMG Heavy Burst	1	2.67	4	4.37	70			26.88	-Def
	Stimulant	1	3.17	12	10.4	25			0.00	Mez Prot
	Frag Grenade	1	1.87	12	14	80		15	15.96	KB
Spec Ops
Theoretical DPS	Brawl	1	0.67	16	4.37				25.69
12.08	SCAR Burst	1.15	2.2	3	4.37	100			21.78	-Def
	SCAR Heavy Burst	1.15	2.67	5	6.86	100			34.56	-Def
	Web Grenade	1	1.87	10	7.8	70			0.00	Immob, Slow
	SCAR Snipe	1.2	3.83	16	6.86	150			49.05	-Def
Commando
Theoretical DPS	Brawl	1	0.67	16	4.37				30.36
20.59	Burst	1.05	2.2	3	5.2	80			33.04	-Def
	Slug	1.05	1.87	6	8.53	80			50.16	KB
	Buckshot	1.05	1.87	8	10.19	40	30		27.83	KB
	Full Auto	1.35	6	20	15.6	80	20		87.21
	M30 Grenade	1.05	1.87	12	15.18	70		15	27.53	KB
	Flamethrower	1.1	3.5	20	15.6	40	40		59.20
	LRM Rocket	1.05	3.83	60	18.2	150		15	76.16	KB

 

Mostly a tweak downwards by a second or few for the common attack powers, with the slower powers getting more of a boost (LRM needs to be seriously reduced to 60s).

 

Only other change that I would want to make in this is to put the Soldier Assault Auto Rifle arc at 20º instead of the 5º I was seeing on the page I pulled the info from.  Don't know if that's a typo or not, but if it's not it ought to be treated as a typo deserving of correction.

[Galaxy Brain]

@Redlynne, for the soldiers the recharge wouldnt matter given how long the animations are. That's where they need real help (honestly both stats).

[Monos King]

42 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

By changing ONLY the recharge parameters in the above table of info pulled from HERE ... how much of a (necessary!) improvement can be made to the offensive performance of Mercenaries?

I'm pretty content with the animation/activation changes highlighted in the Merc proposal thread myself.

[Redlynne]

Tweaking the animation times for Mercenary Pet attacks is a potentially labor intensive change.

Tweaking the recharge times for Mercenary Pet attacks is DIRT SIMPLE and can be done in less than 10 minutes.

 

I would honestly think that it would be easier/cheaper/more reliable to TRY tweaking the recharge times FIRST as a low hanging fruit (practically resting on the ground, really) that would consume next to no Dev Time to implement.  Would it be a permanent solution for EVERYTHING that ails the Mercenaries powerset?  Of course not!  Lowering excessively long recharge times on Pet attacks is not an all encompassing solution for all of their problems.  But ... it would be an EASY FIRST STEP in the right direction(!) ... and given that up until now there have been NO STEPS taken in the right direction on this, I for one wouldn't turn my nose up at an even PARTIAL solution to what's wrong with Mercenaries.

 

SOME progress is better than NO progress at all in this case.

Especially when that SOME progress can be implemented quickly with a minimum of fuss and hassle.

 

Don't let the Perfect be the enemy of A Good Enough Start on the problem(s) that Mercenaries have as a powerset.

 

 

 

I mean, good grief ... if I can come up with what I posted in less than half an hour, how HARD would it be to edit the game's database to do what I've specified?

 

 

 

So I repeat.

 

Tweaking the animation times for Mercenary Pet attacks is a potentially labor intensive change.

Tweaking the recharge times for Mercenary Pet attacks is DIRT SIMPLE and can be done in less than 10 minutes.

[Galaxy Brain]

@Redlynne, for what it's worth we dont know exactly how hard changing animation or at least interrupt (in terms of canceling the animation into another action) time is. It could be as easy as changing the recharge by changing a play rate value.

 

We have seen drastic animation time changes in dominator powers in HC already, so its definitely something that could be done along with the recharge  🙂

Edited June 27, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

@Redlynne, for what it's worth we dont know exactly how hard changing animation or at least interrupt (in terms of canceling the animation into another action) time is. It could be as easy as changing the recharge by changing a play rate value.

 

We have seen drastic animation time changes in dominator powers in HC already, so its definitely something that could be done along with the recharge  🙂

I'm just saying it's safer and presumably easier to edit parameters that don't mess with animations.

Yes, Homecoming has demonstrated that they CAN alter animation times ... but I don't take that as evidence that the effort to do so is negligible, cheap and/or as easy as lowering recharge values on powers in the database.  If anything, I start with a baseline expectation that animation time changes are "expensive/intensive" to do (until informed otherwise), which I feel like is a pretty safe assumption (and if I'm wrong, boo hoo!).

[GUTROT]

I totally agree on the point to get the Auto TP replaced with some kind of 'Come To Me' command! Not only would they survive traveling through zones etc. more easily but this might also make the Go To & Stay commands work more effective as well.

Happened often enough to me that I told the pets to Go To or Stay at a specific spot & as soon as I went too far away from them they would just continue to follow me around for some reason..
There's this mission in Croatoa for instance where you have to guard an exit & prevent any redcaps(iirc) to escape through it. But since its quite a lengthy mish if you just wait til all groups make their way to the exit, I started pulling some groups. Had lots of struggles trying to keep the pets in place to guard the exit while I went to get the next group.. Didnt work out as I had hoped it would so any changes/updates on those commands would be greatly appreciated!

[M3z]

These changes are really good, hopefully the HC team takes them seriously, I especially like your suggestions for mercs.

 

The movement speed buff and stance changes would be pretty ground breaking for MMs in pvp. The biggest weakness of MMs in the current meta is their lack of movespeed, without any way to lock opponents down anymore because of the mez system that's in place MMs are basically useless unless they are speedboosted up.

[Ultimo]

I love it.

My biggest complaint about Masterminds has been that the Mastermind himself is so weak.  I mean, think about the kinds of characters we see in the comics who would be Masterminds... Dr. Doom, Red Skull, Nick Fury...  They rely mainly on their minions, but are themselves forces to be reckoned with.  Once you get past Doom's bots, Doom himself is VERY dangerous.  Not here.  Here, Doom is impossibly flimsy and has only one or two piddly attacks that exhaust him in seconds.

 

So, I'm all for anything that might help the Masterminds... though I'd still like to see some love for the Mastermind himself, some boost to his personal attacks, and a reduction on endurance (which I'd honestly like to see for all ATs).

[tidge]

14 hours ago, Ultimo said:

I love it.

My biggest complaint about Masterminds has been that the Mastermind himself is so weak.  I mean, think about the kinds of characters we see in the comics who would be Masterminds... Dr. Doom, Red Skull, Nick Fury...  They rely mainly on their minions, but are themselves forces to be reckoned with. 

I always picture Doctor Doom as a (perma)Dominator...

[Ultimo]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

I always picture Doctor Doom as a (perma)Dominator...

I could see that... but Doom prefers not to get involved himself.  He sends his bots out to do his menial tasks.  Of course, when the heroes DO come up against Doom himself, he's a beast.  Creating a character based on Doom is therefore troublesome.  Yes, making him a Dominator could make him a beast, but he would have no minions to send off to do the work for him.  Making him a Mastermind gives him the minions, but he himself is a fragile joke.  It's hard to call.

 

I'm actually stuck in this quandry with another of my Masterminds.  He's supposed to be a former Nazi, turned sorceror corrupted by darkness.  He would command soldiers to do his bidding, then when confronted personally, be a terrifying foe.... but he's not.  He's squishy and flimsy and does practically no damage with anything.  So, I considered making him a Dominator or Controller... but he just "feels" wrong, doing everything for himself.  So hard to satisfy the concept (though I suppose fully doing so would be kind of OP).