Invulnerability Rework Request

[marcussmythe]

1.)  Invulnerability is an Issue 0 release set that has received little positive (and some negative) attention since release.  It focuses purely on survival, and does so with a large number of individually weak powers, consuming a lot of powers and slots for its final effect which is limited to Resist and Defense.  And even at this, it contains a very large 'hole' for psionic damage, as well as significant 'holes' for energy/negative energy/fire/cold.  These can be patched with IOs, but a set that has only survival to show for itself should not be patching its survival with IOs.

 

2.)  The Invulnerability Tier 9 power, its ultimate defensive capstone, is widely mocked and derided as a suicide button.  It provides survival that the set does not need, at the price of a high chance of death when the crash takes it down.  This in a set with essentially no utility or offense.

 

3.)  Since its release, we have seen a large number of newer defensive sets released.  These usually contain damage mechanisms, endurance mechanisms, healing mechanisms, CC mechanisms, AOE Damage or all of the above, as well as providing their defensive qualities through fewer powers and slots.

 

Argument:

Based on the above, Invulnerability needs to be less power/slot hungry (though not radically so), and also needs to provide some utility or offense boost if it is to continue to have purpose in an environment that contains Bio Armor, Shield, Radiation, and similar powersets - all of which offer solid survival, along with some mix of sustainability, aoe, damage, or all of the above.

 

Suggested Changes:

1.)  Proliferate Sentinel Invulnerability Changes to other ATs

a.)  The combination of resist elements and resist energies into environmental resistance increases the appeal of these two highly mediocre and space-filling powers.

b.)  This combination creates space in the build for other powers, and preserves slots and powers for better uses than yet another small % passive.

c.)  The inclusion of Durability for other ATs provides a small  bonus to effective endurance and to toxic resistance.  The HP bonus is less notable once perma-dull pain is reached, but still has value.

 

2.)  Increase the value of Environmental Resistance and Unyeilding from 10% to 15% on Tanks (proportional changes to other classes).

a.) A base 30% resist between the two would still leave Invuln relatively poor in those resistances (by comparison to pure resist sets), but without a gaping hole.

b.) Consider patching the Psi Damage Hole.  It serves little purpose in modern play other than to make an otherwise unexceptional set have its own version of Quantums built into content.

 

3.) Rework Unstoppable.

a.)  A major change is required here.  Even if its effect is reduced and crash removed, it still offers only more survival - which is all the set offers to begin with.

i.)  Option 1:   Make it a toggle providing a scaling buff coupled with a scaling penalty, that also grants resist to slow and -rchg.  'Unstoppable'.  Once deactivated, the toggle would have a significant cooldown.

A.)  Possible Scaling Penalties include scaling -DEF, -END, -REC, -REG, etc.  Thematically, a penalty to DEF and/or HP Regen would fit. 

B.)  Possible Scaling Buffs include scaling +DAM (the obvious one), or possibly scaling -RES or -REGEN applied to each attack (to represent the Unstoppable character 'breaking down' the opponent.

C.)  The general concept is to allow the character to trade off survival for offense in a risk/reward manner, as both buff and penalty would climb.

ii.)  Option 2:  An AOE Attack, Damage Buff, or Debuff  (similar to those provided by Shield) might fit here as well.  Less interesting, but easier to implement.

 

I am not here stating that Invulnerability is broken or useless - as it is not.  It is just inefficient, clunky, boring, and of little value in the modern play environment, which is a sad state for a power-set that represents many of the most classic super-heroes.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by marcussmythe

[Snowdaze]

Say what now? Seems popular enough and good enough to make it the number one tanker primary by a large lead especially considering Fire is inflated by farmers...
 

  On 3/2/2020 at 10:47 PM, Cipher said:

Tanker

 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

#	Primary	Secondary	Count
1	Invulnerability	Super Strength	959
2	Fiery Aura	Fiery Melee	522
3	Radiation Armor	Radiation Melee	343
4	Fiery Aura	Spines	287
5	Willpower	Super Strength	275
6	Stone Armor	Stone Melee	167
7	Electric Armor	Electrical Melee	167
8	Fiery Aura	Radiation Melee	165
9	Fiery Aura	Super Strength	160
10	Shield Defense	Electrical Melee	150
11	Shield Defense	Super Strength	138
12	Bio Organic Armor	Radiation Melee	137
13	Bio Organic Armor	Super Strength	135
14	Fiery Aura	Ice Melee	129
15	Dark Armor	Dark Melee	124
16	Invulnerability	Energy Melee	123
17	Dark Armor	Staff Fighting	117
18	Bio Organic Armor	Titan Weapons	116
19	Bio Organic Armor	Spines	114
20	Shield Defense	Broad Sword	110
21	Shield Defense	War Mace	108
22	Invulnerability	Street Justice	107
23	Stone Armor	Super Strength	105
24	Willpower	Street Justice	101
25	Willpower	Titan Weapons	101
26	Ice Armor	Ice Melee	98
27	Radiation Armor	Super Strength	97
28	Invulnerability	Titan Weapons	88
29	Radiation Armor	Titan Weapons	87
30	Stone Armor	Spines	75
31	Stone Armor	Radiation Melee	75
32	Shield Defense	Street Justice	71
33	Stone Armor	Electrical Melee	67
34	Stone Armor	Titan Weapons	67
35	Willpower	Staff Fighting	66
36	Stone Armor	Fiery Melee	65
37	Electric Armor	Super Strength	60
38	Bio Organic Armor	Staff Fighting	58
39	Bio Organic Armor	Savage Melee	57
40	Electric Armor	Titan Weapons	57
41	Dark Armor	Radiation Melee	56
42	Invulnerability	Electrical Melee	54
43	Invulnerability	Dark Melee	53
44	Willpower	Energy Melee	52
45	Radiation Armor	Spines	51
46	Invulnerability	Battle Axe	50
47	Radiation Armor	Dark Melee	49
48	Invulnerability	Radiation Melee	46
49	Dark Armor	Titan Weapons	44
50	Willpower	Radiation Melee	44
51	Radiation Armor	Electrical Melee	41
52	Electric Armor	Radiation Melee	41
53	Super Reflexes	Martial Arts	41
54	Bio Organic Armor	Dark Melee	39
55	Radiation Armor	Psionic Melee	39
56	Willpower	Psionic Melee	38
57	Willpower	War Mace	38
58	Radiation Armor	Staff Fighting	37
59	Shield Defense	Dark Melee	37
60	Shield Defense	Battle Axe	37
61	Willpower	Savage Melee	36
62	Fiery Aura	Electrical Melee	36
63	Dark Armor	Spines	36
64	Invulnerability	War Mace	35
65	Invulnerability	Savage Melee	35
66	Willpower	Electrical Melee	34
67	Willpower	Fiery Melee	34
68	Ice Armor	Spines	34
69	Willpower	Dark Melee	34
70	Bio Organic Armor	Street Justice	33
71	Bio Organic Armor	Psionic Melee	33
72	Invulnerability	Staff Fighting	33
73	Dark Armor	Super Strength	33
74	Fiery Aura	Titan Weapons	32
75	Invulnerability	Fiery Melee	32
76	Shield Defense	Fiery Melee	31
77	Fiery Aura	Dark Melee	31
78	Willpower	Dual Blades	31
79	Invulnerability	Spines	31
80	Dark Armor	Electrical Melee	30
81	Stone Armor	Dark Melee	29
82	Shield Defense	Radiation Melee	29
83	Ice Armor	Super Strength	29
84	Radiation Armor	Fiery Melee	29
85	Willpower	Martial Arts	28
86	Dark Armor	Fiery Melee	28
87	Fiery Aura	Stone Melee	27
88	Ice Armor	Dark Melee	27
89	Dark Armor	Psionic Melee	26
90	Ice Armor	Fiery Melee	26
91	Bio Organic Armor	Stone Melee	25
92	Super Reflexes	Super Strength	25
93	Invulnerability	Stone Melee	25
94	Electric Armor	Staff Fighting	25
95	Bio Organic Armor	Electrical Melee	24
96	Stone Armor	Staff Fighting	24
97	Radiation Armor	Street Justice	24
98	Willpower	Spines	24
99	Ice Armor	Stone Melee	24
100	Invulnerability	Kinetic Attack	24
101	Radiation Armor	Energy Melee	24
102	Ice Armor	Titan Weapons	23
103	Radiation Armor	Savage Melee	23
104	Invulnerability	Martial Arts	22
105	Electric Armor	Spines	22
106	Willpower	Battle Axe	22
107	Stone Armor	Savage Melee	21
108	Shield Defense	Psionic Melee	21
109	Stone Armor	Energy Melee	21
110	Electric Armor	Energy Melee	21
111	Super Reflexes	Street Justice	20
112	Stone Armor	Ice Melee	20
113	Super Reflexes	Staff Fighting	20
114	Invulnerability	Psionic Melee	20
115	Electric Armor	Dark Melee	19
116	Super Reflexes	Dark Melee	19
117	Stone Armor	Battle Axe	19
118	Stone Armor	War Mace	19
119	Fiery Aura	Energy Melee	19
120	Fiery Aura	Psionic Melee	19
121	Bio Organic Armor	Energy Melee	19
122	Ice Armor	Radiation Melee	19
123	Bio Organic Armor	Fiery Melee	18
124	Fiery Aura	War Mace	18
125	Invulnerability	Broad Sword	18
126	Willpower	Stone Melee	18
127	Electric Armor	War Mace	18
128	Dark Armor	Savage Melee	18
129	Fiery Aura	Staff Fighting	17
130	Bio Organic Armor	Claws	17
131	Willpower	Kinetic Attack	17
132	Shield Defense	Energy Melee	17
133	Electric Armor	Fiery Melee	17
134	Invulnerability	Dual Blades	16
135	Shield Defense	Martial Arts	16
136	Bio Organic Armor	Kinetic Attack	16
137	Ice Armor	Energy Melee	16
138	Willpower	Katana	15
139	Shield Defense	Savage Melee	15
140	Radiation Armor	Stone Melee	14
141	Fiery Aura	Savage Melee	14
142	Invulnerability	Ice Melee	14
143	Ice Armor	War Mace	14
144	Dark Armor	Ice Melee	14
145	Dark Armor	Energy Melee	13
146	Willpower	Claws	13
147	Fiery Aura	Dual Blades	13
148	Willpower	Broad Sword	13
149	Stone Armor	Martial Arts	13
150	Stone Armor	Psionic Melee	13
151	Dark Armor	Stone Melee	12
152	Dark Armor	Katana	12
153	Bio Organic Armor	Battle Axe	12
154	Super Reflexes	Titan Weapons	12
155	Ice Armor	Electrical Melee	12
156	Radiation Armor	War Mace	12
157	Electric Armor	Stone Melee	12
158	Electric Armor	Ice Melee	12
159	Radiation Armor	Ice Melee	12
160	Radiation Armor	Kinetic Attack	12
161	Super Reflexes	Psionic Melee	12
162	Fiery Aura	Battle Axe	11
163	Dark Armor	War Mace	11
164	Shield Defense	Kinetic Attack	11
165	Super Reflexes	Kinetic Attack	11
166	Bio Organic Armor	War Mace	11
167	Super Reflexes	Katana	11
168	Bio Organic Armor	Dual Blades	10
169	Dark Armor	Dual Blades	10
170	Shield Defense	Ice Melee	10
171	Stone Armor	Dual Blades	10
172	Electric Armor	Street Justice	10
173	Super Reflexes	Savage Melee	10
174	Super Reflexes	Claws	10
175	Willpower	Ice Melee	10
176	Dark Armor	Broad Sword	9
177	Electric Armor	Psionic Melee	9
178	Electric Armor	Martial Arts	9
179	Electric Armor	Savage Melee	9
180	Super Reflexes	Dual Blades	9
181	Radiation Armor	Katana	9
182	Radiation Armor	Martial Arts	9
183	Dark Armor	Battle Axe	9
184	Electric Armor	Katana	9
185	Stone Armor	Broad Sword	9
186	Ice Armor	Psionic Melee	8
187	Invulnerability	Katana	8
188	Ice Armor	Staff Fighting	8
189	Radiation Armor	Broad Sword	8
190	Electric Armor	Claws	8
191	Super Reflexes	Radiation Melee	8
192	Stone Armor	Street Justice	7
193	Ice Armor	Street Justice	7
194	Radiation Armor	Claws	7
195	Bio Organic Armor	Katana	7
196	Invulnerability	Claws	7
197	Fiery Aura	Claws	6
198	Radiation Armor	Dual Blades	6
199	Dark Armor	Street Justice	6
200	Electric Armor	Battle Axe	6
201	Super Reflexes	Fiery Melee	6
202	Shield Defense	Stone Melee	6
203	Ice Armor	Savage Melee	6
204	Fiery Aura	Broad Sword	6
205	Ice Armor	Battle Axe	5
206	Ice Armor	Kinetic Attack	5
207	Stone Armor	Kinetic Attack	5
208	Dark Armor	Martial Arts	5
209	Ice Armor	Broad Sword	5
210	Fiery Aura	Street Justice	5
211	Electric Armor	Dual Blades	5
212	Super Reflexes	Battle Axe	5
213	Radiation Armor	Battle Axe	4
214	Ice Armor	Martial Arts	4
215	Fiery Aura	Martial Arts	4
216	Bio Organic Armor	Martial Arts	4
217	Bio Organic Armor	Broad Sword	4
218	Super Reflexes	Energy Melee	4
219	Electric Armor	Kinetic Attack	4
220	Dark Armor	Claws	4
221	Ice Armor	Dual Blades	3
222	Super Reflexes	Electrical Melee	3
223	Ice Armor	Katana	3
224	Dark Armor	Kinetic Attack	3
225	Super Reflexes	Stone Melee	3
226	Super Reflexes	Spines	3
227	Fiery Aura	Kinetic Attack	2
228	Super Reflexes	Broad Sword	2
229	Super Reflexes	Ice Melee	2
230	Ice Armor	Claws	2
231	Bio Organic Armor	Ice Melee	2
232	Fiery Aura	Katana	2
233	Electric Armor	Broad Sword	2
234	Stone Armor	Katana	1
235	Super Reflexes	War Mace	1

 

 

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[Psyonico]

  On 5/19/2020 at 5:14 PM, Snowdaze said:

Say what now? Seems popular enough and good enough to make it the number one tanker primary by a large lead especially considering Fire is inflated by farmers...
 

 

Expand  

Although I agree the numbers speak for themselves, how much of that is because everyone wants to be Superman?

[Snowdaze]

  On 5/19/2020 at 5:16 PM, Psyonico said:

Although I agree the numbers speak for themselves, how much of that is because everyone wants to be Superman?

Expand  

45% (pure guess, for humor)  As I will agree that it does seem like an antiquated set, Beyond maybe a little number tweaking, I think it's pretty solid. Tons of people love it, and the blending of resistence and defense. Get the job done 95% of the time. Is it truly Invulnerable? No. Should it be, No. I really think until a much larger portion of the overwhelming number of invuln players start complaining about something, I feel this set is "working as intended".

 

Sorry being a negative nancy, but I dont feel invuln changes are needed at this time.

[ShardWarrior]

  On 5/19/2020 at 4:56 PM, marcussmythe said:

2.)  The Invulnerability Tier 9 power, its ultimate defensive capstone, is widely mocked and derided as a suicide button.  It provides survival that the set does not need, at the price of a high chance of death when the crash takes it down. 

Expand  

I agree.  While Unstoppable is totally optional and from my experience most people skip taking it, there is a reason for skipping it and that is that it stinks as a power.  By the time you obtain it, you do not really need it (if built well enough). 

 

Overall I think INV is fine.  I would disagree it is a boring set that has little value. 

[GritIron]

I disagree, the Psi hole should remain.  Its the Achilles heal of the set.  I am for changes set out here otherwise.  Id like a modest gain in your resists outside of s/l.  And Reworking Unstoppable would be nice considering.  Something more like a large endurance discount/small resist boost Click power with no crash as opposed to its current suicide form.

[Psyblade]

A dB/invul brute was one of my main toons back in live. Once the io slotting was complete, unstoppable was almost completely pointless.  My biggest complaint with the set was the lack of endurance management. For myself, combining resist energy and resist elements into one and adding an endurance management tool would go a really long way. 
 

Instead of a complete rework to unstoppable, what C about adding a psi resist to it?  This would make it more useful and allow it to fill the psi hole, but it would make you think of it was worth it. Every defense set still should have a weakness and I think this would be a good way to make unstoppable worthwhile and he’ll with the complete psi hole. 

[Snowdaze]

  On 5/19/2020 at 5:34 PM, Psyblade said:

A dB/invul brute was one of my main toons back in live. Once the io slotting was complete, unstoppable was almost completely pointless.  My biggest complaint with the set was the lack of endurance management. For myself, combining resist energy and resist elements into one and adding an endurance management tool would go a really long way. 
 

Instead of a complete rework to unstoppable, what C about adding a psi resist to it?  This would make it more useful and allow it to fill the psi hole, but it would make you think of it was worth it. Every defense set still should have a weakness and I think this would be a good way to make unstoppable worthwhile and he’ll with the complete psi hole. 

Expand  

You are trying to make a "perfect set" please no! All great powers need a weakness, Invuln's is that it has a psi hole and you have to watch how you use your end.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Snowdaze

[marcussmythe]

Im just trying to find reasons to play Invuln when Rad, Dark, Shield, and Bio are all standing around being notably more attractive, in that they offer offense, utility, strong healing, or some combination of the above - while being equally ‘too tough to kill’ in an IO world.

 

But reasonable minds can differ.

[Snowdaze]

  On 5/19/2020 at 5:44 PM, marcussmythe said:

Im just trying to find reasons to play Invuln when Rad, Dark, Shield, and Bio are all standing around being notably more attractive, in that they offer offense, utility, strong healing, or some combination of the above - while being equally ‘too tough to kill’ in an IO world.

 

But reasonable minds can differ.

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So you haven't played Invuln?

[marcussmythe]

  On 5/19/2020 at 5:48 PM, Snowdaze said:

So you haven't played Invuln?

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Multiple 50s Invulns on multiple ATs, pre and post IO, live and current.  Similar with Bio (current only).  Ive kicked around Dark, Rad, and Shield at cap, but only on a test environment, not played one up.

[Snowdaze]

Ok so here is the flat of it:

   If you want to be a shining beacon of heroic lump, you play invuln!

   if you want to be covered in hideous growths that make you super powerful even though you will never reach your max power because there isn't enough slots to go around, you play Bio.

   if you want to be like the hulk, you go rad.

   if you want to be like captain america, you go shield.

   if you listened to too much emo music in the 80's or 2000's, you go dark (but you'll only be cool if you were listening to it in the 80's)

Edited May 19, 2020 by Snowdaze

[Psyblade]

  On 5/19/2020 at 5:38 PM, Snowdaze said:

You are trying to make a "perfect set" please no! All great powers need a weekness, Invuln's is that it has a psi hole and you have to watch how you use your end.

Expand  

I should have mentioned this in my original post, if psi resistance is added to unstoppable, it should be at a much lower base than the other resists. Maybe 20% on tankers and have it be unenhancable. This would only soften the blow of psi attacks. With that being said, endurance was the biggest problem I faced while leveling that toon. 
 

My opinion, the taunt in the aura is enough crowd control for it as a defense set. I don’t think it needs any other features in that regard. If anything, endurance was my biggest issue with the set. Took full io’s and the alpha slot to solve it. 

[Zeraphia]

  On 5/19/2020 at 5:44 PM, marcussmythe said:

Im just trying to find reasons to play Invuln when Rad, Dark, Shield, and Bio are all standing around being notably more attractive, in that they offer offense, utility, strong healing, or some combination of the above - while being equally ‘too tough to kill’ in an IO world.

 

But reasonable minds can differ.

Expand  

To be fair, I agree with you and disagree with you.

 

3/4 of those primaries are S-tier worthy Armor sets for Tankers, Rad being S++ tier (an effective uber-tier), I don't think anything really should compare itself to Rad... that's a whole other can of worms. 

 

Comparing Invul to the rest of them... Bio vs. Invul, Invul will usually win the tanking debate every single time. Invul does not give the highest E/N res, but it IS there, Bio gives you a flat out *nothing* other than defense, which Invul will give you... That is monumental given how abundant the hardest/most difficult content utilizes Energy damage. Bio gives Offensive Adaptation, but it gives it at the cost of your survivability, and quite frankly Defensive Adaptation isn't that great... certainly not "OP" or something I'm running out saying every Tanker set needs.

 

Dark vs. Invul, Dark has the big two drawbacks: no way to directly or indirectly (via absorb) boost max hp, and no knockback built in. The second of these two problems is mitigated by IO's, the primary one is not easily addressed. If dark takes a beating, it does not have that much of a base to continue to live on unlike other primaries, Invul on the other hand, gets capped HP readily with a big heal when needed, has softcapped defense to all easily, and decently high resists (not AS high as Dark's, mind you, but it will definitely get you by.) Dark does fair best against Psi damage if Rad is not built for it. Dark has a very good heal, so there is some tradeoff there. In most cases, Invul will beat Dark at tanking. 

 

Shield is one of the best primaries, it gives a LOT of DDR if you can get AD double'd up, and you can practically become "unhittable" it does have one very big "hole" though and that is auto-hit, when that hits this set hard, may hit it very hard (think that giant robot in Market Crash), even with the layers of mitigation it provides. I would consider Shield a better primary than Invul, but I would still say Invul tanks harder things easier than Shield does if the Shield isn't going to go for things like T4 Melee Core + RoP + One w/ Shield spamming (Shield is probably a second only to Rad).

 

I really don't think comparing anything to Rad is a fair debate, and Shield is very good if you build it to be that way, but Invul is definitely not bad at what it does and it is one of the sturdiest Tanker sets available.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Zeraphia

[Naraka]

  On 5/19/2020 at 5:44 PM, marcussmythe said:

Im just trying to find reasons to play Invuln when Rad, Dark, Shield, and Bio are all standing around being notably more attractive, in that they offer offense, utility, strong healing, or some combination of the above - while being equally ‘too tough to kill’ in an IO world.

 

But reasonable minds can differ.

Expand  

No mention of Invuln's scaling ToHit buff?  That's an offensive utility right there. With 5 foes around, you're getting 10% def and 10% ToHit which can certainly help END economy to cut down on misses.  

 

If anything, I feel this thread highlights some sets could use reassessing as they really shift the expectations of the norm.  Bio probably needs some of its defensive utility tied to it's defensive mode and some of its utility like +recovery tied to its efficiency mode.  I'm not saying cut all defense or recovery unless in that mode, but making it more of a shift than it currently is.  Shield is likely the standard we're suppose to be putting sets to but I also feel it reaches too close to SR's niche so tying a bit of its defense into Phalanx Fighting while allies are nearby would help fix that (it still has HP max, resists, crash-lite tier 9 and damage over SR).

 

I've never played Rad to any high level to get a feel for all of its powers but I feel Dark pays for its effectiveness enough.

 

All in all, I think Invuln is a solid set that can be made *VEEERY* solid with some uniques and IOs unlike Dark which damn near demands certain IOs.  Both (invuln and dark) still make out very well once you push their builds with IOs.

 

But yeah...no, I don't agree with the suggested changes here. 

[Snowdaze]

wow 4 of us were all posting responses all at the same time lol

Edited May 19, 2020 by Snowdaze

[MTeague]

Nothing wrong with asking. 

But I don't think Invuln needs any help.  I've got a lvl 30 tanker running around with 38.5% psi resist that's only going to get stronger as he gets more slots.  He only ever dies in extremely prolonged fights where I mismanage his endurance bar, and that's a ME problem, not a powerset problem.  And it still takes him an awful long time to run out of END.

 

(rage/hasten is so tempting... but you pay for it as you hemmorage end...)

Edited May 19, 2020 by MTeague

[marcussmythe]

  On 5/19/2020 at 6:03 PM, Naraka said:

No mention of Invuln's scaling ToHit buff?  That's an offensive utility right there. With 5 foes around, you're getting 10% def and 10% ToHit which can certainly help END economy to cut down on misses.  

 

But yeah...no, I don't agree with the suggested changes here. 

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Do you find you miss often at endgame without Invuln's scaling to-hit buff?  I do not find I do.

 

I don't expect people to agree with me, though I'll admit the vehemence of the 'no really ITS FINE REALLY' response is a bit surprising.

 

I suppose Ill just have to learn to love Rad and Bio and suppress the SFX.  🙂

[Lazarillo]

Unstoppable needs a look.  All the "godmode" powers need a look.  But outside of that, I got no real beef with Invulnerability.  To the contrary, a lot of times I wish other sets had its capabilities.  Stacking, layered defenses that supplement each other, a wide range of resistance to debuffs, no gimmicks, not especially slot hungry in my experience, and heck, the Psi "hole" is one of the easiest to plug.  Invulnerability's only real, well, vulnerability, in my experience, is Confuse and Terrorize, which are fairly uncommon outside of certain bits of endgame content.

[Naraka]

  On 5/19/2020 at 6:37 PM, marcussmythe said:

Do you find you miss often at endgame without Invuln's scaling to-hit buff?  I do not find I do.

 

I don't expect people to agree with me, though I'll admit the vehemence of the 'no really ITS FINE REALLY' response is a bit surprising.

 

I suppose Ill just have to learn to love Rad and Bio and suppress the SFX.  🙂

Expand  

It can help when faced with -ToHit or foes that buff their defense.  It also can lighten the load of Acc slotting you need so you can slot attacks differently.

 

Also, for Scrappers and Stalkers, +ToHit buffs the damage of snipes from patron power pools.

 

I wouldn't be opposed to changes to Invulnerability to make it more unique but all the changes you suggest make it more like every other set.

 

I remember reading someone suggesting to give Invulnerability a power that, if a foe in melee range attacks you but the attack gets deflected, having a chance to knock the foe off their feet, kind of like if you throw a punch at Superman and it just bouncing off his chest so bad you end up hurting yourself.  That's a cool flavor power I'd like to see.

[Nanolathe]

Many Armour T9s are designed in a way that is not in line with their use. When you have a powerful 'click' power you are under constant pressure to hold off from using it until absolutely necessary. However, CoH gives the player very little information before a fight is started as to whether using the T9 is worth while, or better saved for a different fight. Consequently the T9 is not popped until either it is blindingly obvious that the fight calls for it (AVs, GMs, etc) or not used until it's too late. The average Armour T9 is not a "reset fight" button, and is rarely worth clicking as a panic button.

 

If the idea of a T9 is a "prepare for a tough fight" power, then the only way the player will ever use it is if they feel they completely understand the odds against them, and feel that the T9 is able to swing the fight in their favour. However, it doesn't last long and (sometimes) has a period of weakness after the power expires. Meaning the player has to understand not only the strength of the combatants, but the likely time period in which the fight will occur and judge if they can win in time before the debuff kicks in. This is compounded by the possibilities of harder encounters further into the mission, and the long cooldown of most of these powers is a deterrent towards misjudging the use and being flippant with when you activate it. A player, unless they have back-to-front, upside-down knowledge of a mission, the enemy and the troubling spots ahead of when they need to be used is not given enough information to make these calls with any degree of accuracy. Experience is the only way to know these things, and once you have experience you don't need the T9 anymore; you've already learnt other methods for success that will be more effective, and dealing with the backlash of the power expiring will slow down your progress more than the T9 will speed it up.

 

If the idea is for the T9 to be a "panic button" then many of these T9 powers are equally ill suited to their roll as they are not actually powerful enough to turn an imminent failure into a salvageable situation. Most don't heal you or give you a sudden burst of endurance to fire off your headliner attacks. Most don't give you enough time to regain the upper hand if you were already outmatched. Most won't let you finish the fight any quicker in your favour and you've still got that debuff coming down on you... and that's only going to make the situation worse! They're fundamentally unsuited to being a panic button, since unless you're experienced in how the fight is changing moment-to-moment, you're not going to see the suckerpunch coming. A major issue is that the Brute, Tanker, Stalker and Scrapper all get access to what is essentially the SAME power, that is supposed to compliment their vastly different pay styles. Each Archetype is going to want something different from a "Oh God, Help!" power. Again, the only time this could be used properly is if you're prescient by about 10 seconds. And the only time that could happen, your so experienced with the game that you'll avoid the situation before the T9 is necessary.

 

There's one of two fixes needed. But first you have to decide which of the two situations the T9 is going to cater for.

 

Is it's purpose success through superior planning, or snatching victory from the jaws of defeat?

 

More thoughts on this as time permits.

Edit:
I have created a new thread, rather than derailing this one

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by Nanolathe

[Psyblade]

  On 5/19/2020 at 7:07 PM, Naraka said:

It can help when faced with -ToHit or foes that buff their defense.  It also can lighten the load of Acc slotting you need so you can slot attacks differently.

 

Also, for Scrappers and Stalkers, +ToHit buffs the damage of snipes from patron power pools.

 

I wouldn't be opposed to changes to Invulnerability to make it more unique but all the changes you suggest make it more like every other set.

 

I remember reading someone suggesting to give Invulnerability a power that, if a foe in melee range attacks you but the attack gets deflected, having a chance to knock the foe off their feet, kind of like if you throw a punch at Superman and it just bouncing off his chest so bad you end up hurting yourself.  That's a cool flavor power I'd like to see.

Expand  

I completely forgot about the +ToHit buff. I don’t recall it making much difference but I haven’t played invul since live. I remade that toon, but it is currently sitting at level 1.

 

I think the proposal of having a knockdown would be a very unique flavor and would be interesting, but just adding that would make invulnerability too op without removing some of its current abilities. 

[tidge]

  On 5/19/2020 at 4:56 PM, marcussmythe said:

1.)  Invulnerability is an Issue 0 release set that has received little positive (and some negative) attention since release.

...

I am not here stating that Invulnerability is broken or useless - as it is not.  It is just inefficient, clunky, boring, and of little value in the modern play environment, which is a sad state for a power-set that represents many of the most classic super-heroes.

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Invulnerability saw many tweaks since launch, including the (blessed) change from Unyielding Stance to Unyielding. Many respecs were gladly spent that day to drop the Teleport pool.

 

I find it to be an extremely efficient Tanker primary. My Inv Tanker has 30 slots invested in the primary powers (*1) 6 of those slots are in Dull Pain, which IMO is a much better "oh ####" power than Unstoppable.

 

Edit: (*1) 30 Slots across 8 powers.

Edited May 19, 2020 by tidge

[MTeague]

  On 5/19/2020 at 7:18 PM, Nanolathe said:

If the idea is for the T9 to be a "panic button" then many of these T9 powers are equally ill suited to their roll as they are not actually powerful enough to turn an imminent failure into a salvageable situation. Most don't heal you or give you a sudden burst of endurance to fire off your headliner attacks. Most don't give you enough time to regain the upper hand if you were already outmatched. Most won't let you finish the fight any quicker in your favour and you've still got that debuff coming down on you... and that's only going to make the situation worse! They're fundamentally unsuited to being a panic button, since unless you're experienced in how the fight is changing moment-to-moment, you're not going to see the suckerpunch coming. A major issue is that the Brute, Tanker, Stalker and Scrapper all get access to what is essentially the SAME power, that is supposed to compliment their vastly different pay styles. 

Expand  

This I agree with 100%.   For my Invul/SS Tanker, I'm unlikely to take Unstoppable, because it won't do anything extra for me that I'm likely to need.

But I may want Unleash Potential from the Force Of Will tree, for that extra OOMPH of Regen and particularly Recovery. 

[SwitchFade]

Hmm.

 

T9's on most tank sets need revision, this is not just an invuln issue. I skipped unstop.

 

So yes, as stated in other requests and posts, fix T9's

 

As for invuln set and the ideas here other than the TO...

 

Invuln is very, very good. No need to mess with success.

 

I'm very sorry, no vote.