Regeneration Issues

[Lost Deep]

12 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

I really like this because I think it brings about the perspective I've had with my Regeneration characters as well. While most of my other characters strive for defense inspirations to make them "unkillable" to most things for their designated purpose (not being killed on a Corruptor due to aoe hits, things like that) they in particular really benefit from the dual inspiration for purple/orange from Luna in Ouroboros. It is clearly not a perfect solution, and obviously carrying several incarnate-thread costing inspirations is not ideal by any means to any character, I have "made it work" with them, although they have taken several dirt naps in comparison to other sets... even my poor fire/fire blaster. Regen starts off without IO's and purely on SO's so far behind most of the other sets unfortunately, IO's bring it back to low-mediocre territory for survival, but it takes these special inspirations/group party buffs/incarnates to really make it competitive with other sets to the point that you have to really wonder... the primary of a Stalker/Brute/Scrapper (not really bringing in Sentinels, they're their own "thing") is melee damage, they are DPS classes. Their primary isn't to be a Tanker, you have to devote so much time and energy into Regeneration that it becomes "not worth it," in order to make it competitive.

 

Regen has good points, especially for a Solo player, and in low-end play it can be a lot of fun: I have a Savage/regen brute and the synergy is hilarious. The end management is great if you're still getting a feeling for the game, and the clicks are respectably powerful. However, Regen has an issue where if you get something that messes you up, you get messed up VERY badly. This is slightly similar to Invuln and SR, but far stronger: Invuln may have a weakness to Psychic damage, but Psychic damage is relatively rare and they're not usually high-damage attacks (with a few painful exceptions, I'm sure.) Reflexes is strange because it's entirely luck-based, but it has enough -def resistance that it really takes an enemy with stacked accuracy (or a lot of luck) that the averages mostly lie in your favor.

 

Regen, however, has the weakness of 'too high of incoming DPS,' which is unique because there's no band of the game, no specific faction or level range, where it's more or less prevalent. Arachnos blood widow? Pain. Didn't see the one boss in a council spawn? Pain. Got too many control effects on you? Pain. Bad spawn luck and two bosses are standing back-to-back? That council lieutenant turned into a Warwolf? Patrol wandered into your fight?

 

Regen is strange, and unique, in how it runs because you can either 100% take on a given enemy setup indefinitely, or you can't. If you can, you don't even think about your clicks and your green bar is full the entire fight. If you can't, you activate all your healing powers as fast as possible. I kinda like that, but I acknowledge that I like it because I have strange tastes, not because it's good. I don't see Regen working in high-end play: if I were to actually try to be a main tank for a team, I'd likely spend a lot of time on the floor.

[MTeague]

8 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

I agree with this.  Having played a Regen scrapper prior to and post ED and the great Regen nerfs, I can honestly say Regen needs work.  In my opinion it has become far too clicky a set.  Putting IH back as a toggle would be a step in the right direction.

At what cost though?   IH was turned into a LONG cooldown click instead of a toggle because it was considered wildly overpowered as-was.

• Do you only want IH turned into a toggle but keep it at full strength?
• What if it became a toggle, but was cut down to 80% strength?
• toggle at 60% strength?
• toggle at 40% strength?
• at what point would you stomp on the brakes and say "No, not at that price!"

[Snowdaze]

2 hours ago, 0th Power said:

I would love reducing reconstruction’s time and have it -regen resist.  And that might well be enough.  But I think the cool down on either mog  or ih should be (slightly) lower. 

so here is my take on that: any given power if you make a build for recharge, you can normally get most powers down to somewhere between 1/5th or 1/4th of there normal recharge with the powers that you care less about recharge falling in around 1/3rd to a half. And this is on an average build, you can probably squeeze more out, but I'm gunna air on lazy just for my argument.

 

Now say you REALLY want that MoG on a fast recharge (and theses are rough numbers) that brings MoG somewhere in the 50~60 second range. MoG has an uptime of 15 seconds, that if you are fastidious about it's use and activation thats around a quarter of the time it's up. Seems to me that more then a moment. Now I just find the new MoG to be to brief to us for my purposes so I skip it on my regen scrappers, I can see how it would be more useful on a regen stalker, but I dont have any of those.  For being a T9 that you can Pop once every minute and be effectively an Armored Achillies for the next 15 seconds, it seams like it really doesnt need to push that envelope any further. Mind you you get out of it what you put in, but it certainly doesnt need any help in the Def or Res department, most people are gunna slot it for recharge and call it good. I'm still gunna skip it and save my slots, until they bring back Old MoG which is probably never ever going to happen.

 

Now IH, fantastic power, paired with Dull Pain you regen more then an AV! Weighs in at a nearly 11 minute recharge (650 seconds) thats pretty significant! But lets lay this one down, at worst you are going to cut this in half, but more then likely you will fall somewhere between the 1/3rd (3m36s ) and 1/4th mark (2m 42s, it actaully take a LOT of pushing to hit this mark due to ED) now it has an up time of 90s a minute and a half. So it is in general falling in around 50% uptime more or less given what you want. I think ~50% is super fair for this powerful power.

 

Now mind you I treat IH as my real T9, and I effectively try never to use it. Some times I need it and it's there for me, because it's only got ~minute and a half left to recharge when it's effect wears off.

 

I suggest the reconstruction with a slightly lower recharge because as someone else said this is Heal armor it really is, and where you might be able to just ignore the little guy and outclass the medium guy, the big guy might take a giant bite out of you and what is the first thing you do when you get hit hard on regen? You pop that reconstruction every time! Since there is very little built in resist, you are never going to have super fantastic resist numbers, unless you make large consessions (that on you), But what you can to to Overwhelmingly improve Regen is let us use Reconstruction more often, it certainly wont help you if you bite off more then you can chew... 4-5 Freakshow tanks all focused on you are very likely to squish you if they time their attacks correctly. And I say add some -regen resist to it, just to make the rest happy, and if you loose your regen you are likely going to need to hit that reconstruction a few times, and putting the resist in there will help you get your regen back a little quicker, while not making you all the time impervious to -regen, thus you will actively have to fight -regen.

[Heraclea]

A set based on click heals is out of place in a game where nothing happens instantly when clicked because everything has to wait for animations to play; and many power sets have built in artificial lag based on animation times as an element of 'balance'. 

[Snowdaze]

1 hour ago, Heraclea said:

A set based on click heals is out of place in a game where nothing happens instantly when clicked because everything has to wait for animations to play; and many power sets have built in artificial lag based on animation times as an element of 'balance'. 

So you don't perma Dull Pain? If you don't you should it practically doubles the effectiveness of your regen. That leaves 1 click heal, and 1 click regen overdrive...

[Lost Deep]

13 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

So you don't perma Dull Pain? If you don't you should it practically doubles the effectiveness of your regen. That leaves 1 click heal, and 1 click regen overdrive...

Even if someone intends to do perma stuff eventually, it doesn't make it better while leveling. Ideally, a power set should be rewarding to play at any level. It will of course be absolutely absurd for people who IO slot, but some people either don't want to figure out how to IO slot or only start doing it when they get to 50. If perma-ing a power is an essential part of the powerset viability, that's not a good sign.

 

1 hour ago, Heraclea said:

A set based on click heals is out of place in a game where nothing happens instantly when clicked because everything has to wait for animations to play; and many power sets have built in artificial lag based on animation times as an element of 'balance'. 

My understanding is that part of the issue of animation times is that they weren't considered as part of balance by the original makers, not when the game was first being designed in any case. That was part of why Dual Pistols had issues in Live. Regen has it better than some, the cast times are pretty good (other than instant healing?) but it does still have an impact on how the set flows. I have had times where I was a little worried I wouldn't get all my clicks off before the enemies just splatted me. I suspect that this is a mix of engine limitation and that Regen isn't supposed to be based on click heals; it has a mix of Auto and Toggle powers that implies to me it's supposed to be a set with solid clicks, not one that relies on clicks. Obviously, if this IS true then there's problems with the set design.

[Doc_Scorpion]

5 hours ago, Lost Deep said:

Regen is strange, and unique, in how it runs because you can either 100% take on a given enemy setup indefinitely, or you can't. If you can, you don't even think about your clicks and your green bar is full the entire fight. If you can't, you activate all your healing powers as fast as possible. I kinda like that, but I acknowledge that I like it because I have strange tastes, not because it's good.

That's me too.  I enjoy how Regen is a constant dance on the high wire - can you kill arrest faster than you can be sent to the hospital?

If you can't take that tension, then Regen may not be the set for you.

[Snowdaze]

13 minutes ago, Lost Deep said:

Even if someone intends to do perma stuff eventually, it doesn't make it better while leveling. Ideally, a power set should be rewarding to play at any level. It will of course be absolutely absurd for people who IO slot, but some people either don't want to figure out how to IO slot or only start doing it when they get to 50. If perma-ing a power is an essential part of the powerset viability, that's not a good sign.

I'm sorry I feel you are miss interpreting my intent. During the leveling process Dull Pain works as a good heavy hitting heal if taken early in the leveling process, in essence it can even partly act as an early game T9 kind of save the day concept, but in the late game it's functionality shift to be much more, since you are now more capable of higher regen percentages and need to use DP as an emergency button it if you so choose to invest in the recharge, can evolve into a perma HP booster furthering your regen to that much higher. It by no means is "essential" to perma but because of the properties of the power it can server multiple functions in the build, heavy heal and temp Hp buff which leads to temp regen buff, or focus more on it choose to trigger it if you dont need to heal and keep the HP buff and the more HP/sec all the time.

[Naraka]

27 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

That's me too.  I enjoy how Regen is a constant dance on the high wire - can you kill arrest faster than you can be sent to the hospital?

If you can't take that tension, then Regen may not be the set for you.

On live, I had an Elec/Regen Stalker that I adored and RP'ed with and on HC, I rerolled him into an Elec/Bio Stalker. He was pretty good, but overall, the concept for my character is someone that gets a hole punched in them but make the damage disappear 1sec later.  So I re-rerolled him back to Elec/Regen and transferred all the IOs and inf.  It's a kind of finicky set up which is why I like it.

 

I also have a NB/Regen Stalker.  He's not so much finicky as he is a Scrapper with controllable crits.  He even has taunt and was my first incarnate character on HC.

 

I don't see an issue giving Regen some debuff resistance.  Seems right down its ally.

[ShardWarrior]

4 hours ago, MTeague said:

At what cost though?   IH was turned into a LONG cooldown click instead of a toggle because it was considered wildly overpowered as-was.

• Do you only want IH turned into a toggle but keep it at full strength?
• What if it became a toggle, but was cut down to 80% strength?
• toggle at 60% strength?
• toggle at 40% strength?
• at what point would you stomp on the brakes and say "No, not at that price!"

Instant Healing as a toggle is never what overpowered the set.  Regen was overpowered back in the day prior to ED when one could easily stack Dull Pain, perma MoG and six slot heals.  What most people either forget or neglect to mention is that slotting this way gutted your offense.  Putting IH back as a toggle is not going to overpower Regen again.

[Snowdaze]

8 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Instant Healing as a toggle is never what overpowered the set.  Regen was overpowered back in the day prior to ED when one could easily stack Dull Pain, perma MoG and six slot heals.  What most people either forget or neglect to mention is that slotting this way gutted your offense.  Putting IH back as a toggle is not going to overpower Regen again.

You have a fair point, but IO's and set bonus's did help bring it back up from it's post IH change and ED hits. Making IH a toggle again would add a measurable increase in strength, at the cost of more End/sec, though the set normally doesn't suffer from end problems do to it's extra endurance gain. But at this point is more end/sec a viable cost for that measurable increase in strength?

 

But yeah no one is gunna be able to perma MoG these days.

[ShardWarrior]

37 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

You have a fair point, but IO's and set bonus's did help bring it back up from it's post IH change and ED hits. Making IH a toggle again would add a measurable increase in strength, at the cost of more End/sec, though the set normally doesn't suffer from end problems do to it's extra endurance gain. But at this point is more end/sec a viable cost for that measurable increase in strength?

 

But yeah no one is gunna be able to perma MoG these days.

Even with IOs and turning IH back into a toggle, Regen is still weak to overwhelming spike damage, DoTs and Recharge debuffs. 

[MTeague]

54 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Instant Healing as a toggle is never what overpowered the set.  Regen was overpowered back in the day prior to ED when one could easily stack Dull Pain, perma MoG and six slot heals.  What most people either forget or neglect to mention is that slotting this way gutted your offense.  Putting IH back as a toggle is not going to overpower Regen again.

I hope the devs see it that way.  Because I see it requested enough I'm thinking sooner or later it will probably happen. 

 

Me personally, I would much rather keep it a Click, every bit as strong as it is now, than accept reduced healing to make it a perma-on toggle.  I wouldn't exactly darn people to heck if it made a toggle and kept the same strength.  But if push came to shove and I had to choose...  I generally don't need it up 24/7, it's not that that hard for me to tell when things are about to hit the fan and pop it.  Although, my high level /Regen is a Stalker, not a Brute, so I may do the math differently than a Brute would.

[Snowdaze]

11 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Even with IOs and turning IH back into a toggle, Regen is still weak to overwhelming spike damage, DoTs and Recharge debuffs. 

Overwhelming spike damage, yes; But also able to recover from it much better then any other set (assuming you arn't afflicted with the dead), but yes they do take a much greater hit then any other "armored" character.

DoTs...Depends on the dot, some can effectively negate/offset the regen, others are a joke, IE 'trops, being in the TV reactor room....

Recharge debuffs, yep just like everyone else, but I can see that you bring this up because Regen can be viewed as a very much reactive set, and less of a proactive set.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Snowdaze

[Heraclea]

2 hours ago, Lost Deep said:

My understanding is that part of the issue of animation times is that they weren't considered as part of balance by the original makers, not when the game was first being designed in any case. That was part of why Dual Pistols had issues in Live. Regen has it better than some, the cast times are pretty good (other than instant healing?) but it does still have an impact on how the set flows. I have had times where I was a little worried I wouldn't get all my clicks off before the enemies just splatted me. I suspect that this is a mix of engine limitation and that Regen isn't supposed to be based on click heals; it has a mix of Auto and Toggle powers that implies to me it's supposed to be a set with solid clicks, not one that relies on clicks. Obviously, if this IS true then there's problems with the set design.

The issue comes in because animation lag makes some attack sets extremely poor fits with Regen.  You can, for instance, make an Energy Melee/Regen brute.  I wouldn't recommend it.  I made my experimental regen tanking brute Staff/Regen because my impression was that Staff had long, laggy attacks that put click trouble buttons out of reach for a long time.  The animation times of Regen's click trouble buttons themselves are a lesser issue.  But if you are stuck in a three second animation, any click heal is likely to arrive too late. 

[Monos King]

I honestly think IH should just be remade into a toggle with no changes to its buff values, given a pretty hefty endurance per sec rate, and made into an absorb tic ability in PvP. I don't see how regen with IH will ever be OP in PvE when it can be one shot or recharge doomed, just strong situationally like the other set armors should be.

 

Passive regen would be the Regeneration armors main protection, just like resistance or defense is for other sets. If they wanted to offset that temporarily they could get rune of protection like how other sets get unrelenting. 

[Snowdaze]

2 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

The issue comes in because animation lag makes some attack sets extremely poor fits with Regen.  You can, for instance, make an Energy Melee/Regen brute.  I wouldn't recommend it.  I made my experimental regen tanking brute Staff/Regen because my impression was that Staff had long, laggy attacks that put click trouble buttons out of reach for a long time.  The animation times of Regen's click trouble buttons themselves are a lesser issue.  But if you are stuck in a three second animation, any click heal is likely to arrive too late. 

#1 reason I started skipping Shadow Maul on DM/Regen, the most vulnerable time for the build was during the Shadow Maul!

[Snowdaze]

1 minute ago, Monos King said:

I honestly think IH should just be remade into a toggle with no changes to its buff values, given a pretty hefty endurance per sec rate, and made into an absorb tic ability in PvP. I don't see how regen with IH will ever be OP in PvE when it can be one shot or recharge doomed, just strong situationally like the other set armors should be.

 

Passive regen would be the Regeneration armors main protection, just like resistance or defense is for other sets. If they wanted to offset that temporarily they could get rune of protection like how other sets get unrelenting. 

well we know things can have a totally different effect in pvp, so in pvp could we not make it just have a different recharge, end cost, and make it auto off after whatever it's current length is, in essence make the toggle act like a click in pvp? thus no one really has a reason to complain about it working differently then it does now as a click?

[Naraka]

8 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I honestly think IH should just be remade into a toggle with no changes to its buff values, given a pretty hefty endurance per sec rate, and made into an absorb tic ability in PvP. I don't see how regen with IH will ever be OP in PvE when it can be one shot or recharge doomed, just strong situationally like the other set armors should be.

 

Passive regen would be the Regeneration armors main protection, just like resistance or defense is for other sets. If they wanted to offset that temporarily they could get rune of protection like how other sets get unrelenting. 

Any suggestion asking to make IH a high END toggle I will disagree with.  I can tell the concern is solely on Scrapper/Brute because I do NOT need more endurance consumption on my Regen Stalkers who have no +recovery innate.  And even if you say "Oh, well we'll give Stalker Regen +recovery in [insert power]", I'll just say good...now keep IH a click too so I can get a positive return on my recovery for a change rather than suffering a give and take to get to par lol

 

But I'm in agreement with @MTeague.  I like Regen as a click heavy set.  No other set is like it with 4 self-buff clicks, 5 if you include Revive.  My build for NB/Regen actually incorporates another in Unrelenting.  I'm not seeing a huge reason to shift to more passiveness unless the goal is to make the set stronger.

[Monos King]

19 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

well we know things can have a totally different effect in pvp, so in pvp could we not make it just have a different recharge, end cost, and make it auto off after whatever it's current length is, in essence make the toggle act like a click in pvp? thus no one really has a reason to complain about it working differently then it does now as a click?

I don't know, the only things I've ever known to change in PvP are powers effects and damage...mechanic changes might not bode so well since the PvP changes are specific to affecting other players (the changes in PvP instances don't apply to NPCs in said instances.)

[Snowdaze]

2 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I don't know, the only things I've ever known to change in PvP are powers effects and damage...mechanic changes might not bode so well since the PvP changes are specific to affecting other players (the changes in PvP instances don't apply to NPCs in said instances.)

hmmmm this is a strong point, but as neither of us have not been in the code, purely anecdotal. But a very strong argument.

[Monos King]

3 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

hmmmm this is a strong point, but as neither of us have not been in the code, purely anecdotal. But a very strong argument.

If that's feasible it'd definitely be perfect. Regen has been a difficult fix for a while due to being arguably squishy in PvE and immensely overpowered in PvP due to the way PvP DR works. In regens case just outright differentiating the powerset distinctly between instances would probably end up being the only way to balance both, since it sits on this teter where a nerf for PvP sake ruins regen for PvE and a buff for PvE makes it stupid in PvP.

 

@Naraka I would think IH toggle would just be a flat buff to regen and help mitigate the sort of immediate death from high -rech though, without real need for regen res. I think it not having regen res in the event of IH toggle returning would be fair too, as they'd have that and their click heals to rely on. It wouldn't have to be insane Telekinesis endurance cost or anything, just more than the average toggle as it would essentially be regens armor in one.

[Snowdaze]

8 minutes ago, Monos King said:

 since it sits on this teter where a nerf for PvP sake ruins regen for PvE and a buff for PvE makes it stupid in PvP.

as it always has.... Regen feels nerfs and buffs two fold in PvP.

[Dragotect]

23 hours ago, Snowdaze said:

Thanks, for not actually contributing anything constructive to this thread. I'm not sure if you are missing my point or just trying to troll me.

FYI, your argument was to leave it the "F alone" and to support your argument you used popularity stats. Had you instead said "Regen IS popular" as a counter to the OPs statement that it wasn't then you would be in the right currently. So, if the stats were to argue it is actually popular I would like to see your argument why it doesn't need to be looked into.

 

Me, I remember Regen with toggle instant heal. It was an amazing set back then AND popular. As it stands now, without toggle IH, a character struggles to survive the Beta strike. MoG is a joke compared to the already laughable T9 defenses out there. Both of these make Regen an underwhelming choice. The popularity comes from characters like Wolverine and Deadpool, but ever since IH was detoggled it hasn't had the oomf you'd expect as shown by those two popular chacters.

 

I'd like to see IH a toggle again, even if it isn't the godly rate of early CoH. Stalker Regen, after getting one to 50, I don't think needs to be touched. With hide I feel it's easy to get enough to mitigate the lack of insane Regen with none IO defense. And since it is toggle light I didn't have much end issues.

 

Still, though, if I want a Regen character I'm usually going to go with willpower as Regen stands right now. Without insane Regen, the set just doesn't provide enough survivability to go with.

[Snowdaze]

30 minutes ago, Dragotect said:

FYI, your argument was to leave it the "F alone" and to support your argument you used popularity stats. Had you instead said "Regen IS popular" as a counter to the OPs statement that it wasn't then you would be in the right currently. So, if the stats were to argue it is actually popular I would like to see your argument why it doesn't need to be looked into.

 

Me, I remember Regen with toggle instant heal. It was an amazing set back then AND popular. As it stands now, without toggle IH, a character struggles to survive the Beta strike. MoG is a joke compared to the already laughable T9 defenses out there. Both of these make Regen an underwhelming choice. The popularity comes from characters like Wolverine and Deadpool, but ever since IH was detoggled it hasn't had the oomf you'd expect as shown by those two popular chacters.

 

I'd like to see IH a toggle again, even if it isn't the godly rate of early CoH. Stalker Regen, after getting one to 50, I don't think needs to be touched. With hide I feel it's easy to get enough to mitigate the lack of insane Regen with none IO defense. And since it is toggle light I didn't have much end issues.

 

Still, though, if I want a Regen character I'm usually going to go with willpower as Regen stands right now. Without insane Regen, the set just doesn't provide enough survivability to go with.

You seemed to skip over the the post by the GM, this is not a thread to heckle my choice of statement of opinion on a set (the leave it alone part) or the that I used server statistics to prove a powersets popularity as a contrary to the OP's opening statement. And I would like to inform you I find it especially rude of you to do so a whole day after the fact and when you haven't been involved in this thread up until this point.

 

The rest of your post is fine, you are free to have an opinion on the actual topic being discussed!

Edited May 21, 2020 by Snowdaze