Balance this game for the love of all things that are good and great

[Balancethegame]

Hello Everyone,

 

It has been 10 years since I have played CoH. I really love this game because I love the Super Hero genre. This was my first MMO and it was a great experience back then. One of the greatest things about this game is the community, the people. The people that play this game are amazing, they make amazing characters, each hero is a representation of that person. Isn't that a great concept? We connect with each other and share our cultures and experiences with each other through this great game. And although we may butt heads every now and then, I really love the people that play this game. We all share a love for super heroes, villains, etc. which is why we play this great game, the piece of art which is City of Heroes. 

 

Now, I think that while City of Heroes does many things very well, such as customization and graphics. But there is one thing that really bugs me and I'm sure it bugs a lot of other people as well. That is, the balance or lack thereof in this game. Some power sets and combos are too overpowered as it stands and let's face it, nobody likes the oddball meta combos such as beam rifle / plant manipulation. I mean who in their right mind makes a hero like that? That's nuts. 

 

So I am going to skip to the point, and my point is that this game should be more balanced.

 

Now I am not a genius, a great programmer or whatever you want to call it, but I understand simple arithmetic. I'm more of an accountant. In real life I have worked in commodities trading and have a degree in finance. 

 

How do we balance this game though? Well, start with the basics. Start with single target damage for each power set. Make each powerset's single target attacks do similar damage over similar amounts of time, with similar recharges. 

 

I can go into further detail, but I really do believe that problem and solution is simple enough to understand without displaying the numbers. For example, we all know that Fire Blasters are OP and they do way too much damage compared with the rest of the powersets. Just compare the damage to electricity and it's mind boggling. And I know some of you will say that "well fire is more damaging than electricity I mean even the sun is made out of fire" but this is a game and games, like chess, need to be balanced.

 

I'm not against minimal damage differences between the powersets, but when the damage differences are hundreds of points wide it's a little stupid. 

 

So balance this game once and for all. Make it a MASTER PIECE OF ART. 

 

 

 

[Redlynne]

7 minutes ago, RCPK said:

How do we balance this game though? Well, start with the basics. Start with single target damage for each power set. Make each powerset's single target attacks do similar damage over similar amounts of time, with similar recharges.

So ... your big idea is to homogenize the game ...?

 

 

 

Um ... no ...?

[Balancethegame]

Homogenizing would be making everything the same. I am simply saying make it balanced, or in other words closer to each other but not totally equal. 

 

I am using fire blaster vs electric blaster as the main example because it is easy to understand. 

 

The damage difference between fire and electric powersets shouldn't be that noticeable. Or at least not as noticeable as they are now. 

 

[ShardWarrior]

It seems to me you are neglecting to take into account different forms of mitigation.  Fire is going to be more DoT whereas Electric is more END drain.  Making everything the same makes everything less unique and bland in my opinion.

[DSorrow]

These kind of design formulas already exist and most powers follow them: any attack with a given damage scale is (most of the time) accompanied by a specific recharge and endurance cost. However, there are a couple of things that make powersets (and their performance) different from each other:

1. Secondary effects. What if the power stuns or drains endurance. How do these factor in? Going back to your example, Fire's secondary effect literally is more damage whereas Ice Blast slows and Elec drains endurance.
2. Power selection. Some powersets get more AoE, some get more ST attacks, some require you to be close up, others allow you to stay at range.

Basically the differences draw from the identity of each powerset and I would really think twice before tinkering with those. I do agree with you that Elec Blast is pretty weak compared to most other blast sets, but that has more to do with the powerset lacking a T3 blast (Blaze, Bitter Ice Blast) than it has to do with individual attacks doing less damage than comparable attacks in other blast sets.

[Balancethegame]

Sometimes, and in this case, for the sake of balance - especially in PvP - you need to sacrifice something in exchange for another. 

 

You argue that it would make everything less unique and bland. Well what if we all rolled the best specs? Because let's face it, we know what the best specs are. Fire, Ice, Psychic, etc. 

 

I will give three reasons why we should balance this game: 

 

1. Making everything balanced would eliminate the joker combos, such as beam rifle / plant manipulation. 

 

2. Making everything balanced would open up PvP and make it fairer.

 

3. Most important reason: Making everything balanced would make things more forgiving for newer players. 

 

 

 

[ShardWarrior]

9 minutes ago, RCPK said:

Making everything balanced would open up PvP and make it fairer.

The game should never be balanced around the needs of PvP in my opinion.  Each set has its own utility and some combos will work better together than others. 

[Balancethegame]

See and this is where you are both wrong. You say that the game should never be balanced around the needs of PvP and that there is mitigation etc. 

 

But of what use is the mitigation such as endurance drain in PvE context? When does this become important? Because from what I've seen, damage is king. The faster you can down the enemy the better. And if damage is king, a fire blaster will always be treasured above an electric blaster. 

[Zeraphia]

What is good and needs balancing in PvP is leaps and bounds different than PvE. If you're making this as a PvP suggestion, you would need to give specific examples of what powers need to be "reigned in" or "improved" for it. The things that are excellent in PvP (Regeneration, Psionic Melee, Psychic Blast, Plant Manipulation, etc.) are often found as "underperformers" overall in a PvE environment. 

 

Beam Rifle is completely balanced in PvE, it trades a lot of the AoE it could have for the favor of decent ST (still solidly behind Fire in terms of damage it can spew out instantaneously). Its animations aren't the fastest either. 

 

There will always be outliers and "meta" in every single game that isn't solely based on aesthetics. Gutting the way others play isn't going to bode well overall for the state of the game. I really think you're painting this game with way too broad a brush and you're looking at one specific aspect that a set excels but you don't consider the weaknesses that the set has in terms of the overall gameplay. 

 

Fire is a damage outlier... but it has no mitigation or special effects beyond DoT damage.

Psionic is a burst down powerhouse... but every robot and their mom has massive resistances to it late game with no really good way to run -res procs and overall not great aoe.

Ice doesn't hit the absolute hardest... but it is one of the best mitigators for damage.

Dark debuffs enemies and heals itself... but it isn't the greatest ever at damage.

 

There is lots of balance at play. What one chooses to value in terms of a set in the aspect it excels may just be a different priority to them than you.  

Edited June 2, 2020 by Zeraphia

[ZacKing]

3 minutes ago, RCPK said:

See and this is where you are both wrong. You say that the game should never be balanced around the needs of PvP and that there is mitigation etc. 

 

But of what use is the mitigation such as endurance drain in PvE context? When does this become important? Because from what I've seen, damage is king. The faster you can down the enemy the better. And if damage is king, a fire blaster will always be treasured above an electric blaster. 

Yeah no, it's not wrong man.  seems like you've never teamed with a player who has a solid end drain build.  shuts down enemies from attacking you.  Fire blasters are definitely not the kings of damage anymore either.

[Redlynne]

51 minutes ago, RCPK said:

I am using fire blaster vs electric blaster as the main example because it is easy to understand. 

 

The damage difference between fire and electric powersets shouldn't be that noticeable. Or at least not as noticeable as they are now.

So ... you just want to NERF Fire powersets so they don't do extra DoT as their special effect, but rather instead do something else?

Maybe make Fire cause $Targets to run around in Terror/Fear because they're ON FIRE ...?

 

Not to put too fine a point on it, but THAT WAS TRIED.

The Players HATED IT when Fire caused Fear because it meant $Targets would run away from Burn patches, nerfing their damage throughput.

This was done during the Cryptic Studios/Paragon Studios days.  I remember it.

 

If your stance is that Fire powersets shouldn't have Damage over Time as their added effect ... you're going to have to justify yourself better than "because Electric sucks!"

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

43 minutes ago, RCPK said:

See and this is where you are both wrong. You say that the game should never be balanced around the needs of PvP and that there is mitigation etc. 

 

But of what use is the mitigation such as endurance drain in PvE context? When does this become important? Because from what I've seen, damage is king. The faster you can down the enemy the better. And if damage is king, a fire blaster will always be treasured above an electric blaster. 

Uhm yeah no, Sappers for example are useful on GMs from the higher lvl zones who have more HP and thus a stronger base regen then lower level zones GMs. And CC is oftena nd amply used in all sorts of challenging content to make it much easier.

 

And DPS without mitigation and sustain is not king. dirt eating over tuned pure dps builds often do 0 dps because they are face planted.

 

Oh and PvP is an after thought in this game, always has been always must be. It was not part of initial development, nor were the red side ATs. PVP balance in this game has always been a joke because just between two builds using the same AT and Pools, the numerical performance based on enhancements and pool picks can create such a power gap between the 2 that it may as well be a lvl 1 vs a lvl 50.

[Balancethegame]

If PvP is an after thought then why was it implemented in the first place? Why would they add PvP? Why not make it better by making it more balanced? 

 

It's a poor argument to say PvP is an afterthought. Maybe it's become an afterthought BECAUSE of imbalance. But that's what I'm trying to correct.

 

The easiest way to achieve balance is to get rid of the meta builds. The easiest way to get rid of meta builds is to eliminate the large differences between the sets. Unfortunately, that means tuning down the mitigation and tuning single target damage to be closer across the sets along with activation and recharge times so that rotations are more or less the same. 

[ShardWarrior]

4 minutes ago, RCPK said:

The easiest way to achieve balance is to get rid of the meta builds. The easiest way to get rid of meta builds is to eliminate the large differences between the sets. Unfortunately, that means tuning down the mitigation and tuning single target damage to be closer across the sets along with activation and recharge times so that rotations are more or less the same. 

No thank you.

[Redlynne]

2 minutes ago, RCPK said:

The easiest way to achieve balance is to get rid of the meta builds. The easiest way to get rid of meta builds is to eliminate the large differences between the sets.

So you want to play this instead ...

 

[Chance Jackson]

5 minutes ago, RCPK said:

Unfortunately, that means tuning down the mitigation and tuning single target damage to be closer across the sets along with activation and recharge times so that rotations are more or less the same. 

No, that's exactly what the player base wants to avoid

[Balancethegame]

8 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

13 minutes ago, RCPK said:

The easiest way to achieve balance is to get rid of the meta builds. The easiest way to get rid of meta builds is to eliminate the large differences between the sets.

So you want to play this instead ...

 

 

No I want to play an MMO that focuses on the archetypes and teamwork instead of overpowered powersets. Let blasters be damage dealers and controllers be the ones that worry about mitigation.

[justicebeliever]

What is accomplished if all the sets are more or less the same?  How does that make the game more fun?

 

For me, and quite a few other players, what makes the game fun and unique is the many combinations of different builds that you can create that function differently and require different play styles.  Sameness over time produces boredom. 

 

Beyond that though, taking into account the different build styles, I think HC, much like Cryptic/NCSoft before it, tries to within reason provide balance, based on player behavior and feedback.  And that's true for both PvP and PvE.  Look through the patch notes to see improvements to builds and PvP powers to make it more balanced.

 

 

[Balancethegame]

7 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

What is accomplished if all the sets are more or less the same?  How does that make the game more fun?

 

For me, and quite a few other players, what makes the game fun and unique is the many combinations of different builds that you can create that function differently and require different play styles.  Sameness over time produces boredom. 

 

Beyond that though, taking into account the different build styles, I think HC, much like Cryptic/NCSoft before it, tries to within reason provide balance, based on player behavior and feedback.  And that's true for both PvP and PvE.  Look through the patch notes to see improvements to builds and PvP powers to make it more balanced.

 

 

It opens the door to PvP. It let's players forget about number crunching to make the best build and allows for the focus to be on themes, customization, animation preferences. It makes the focus more on the archetype and less on the powersets.

[skoryy]

I'm gonna bring back one of them golden oldies:

 

lolpvp

[ShardWarrior]

6 minutes ago, RCPK said:

It opens the door to PvP. It let's players forget about number crunching to make the best build and allows for the focus to be on themes, customization, animation preferences. It makes the focus more on the archetype and less on the powersets.

Homogenizing everything to be the same does not accomplish this.

[ShardWarrior]

15 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

Sameness over time produces boredom. 

^ This 3000

[FrauleinMental]

2 hours ago, RCPK said:

Some power sets and combos are too overpowered as it stands and let's face it, nobody likes the oddball meta combos such as beam rifle / plant manipulation. I mean who in their right mind makes a hero like that? That's nuts. 

That's Mr. Peanut after his reanimation and cybernetic refit.

[Balancethegame]

3 minutes ago, skoryy said:

I'm gonna bring back one of them golden oldies:

 

lolpvp

Yep keep laughing. In fact, it was so funny that the game shut down all those years ago. And it's no wonder, because nobody had the proper vision of making this game the master piece it should be. 

 

PvP whether you like it or not, is something that MANY people would enjoy doing, and enjoy it more were it more balanced.

 

I could take snipes at all you PvErs but I enjoy PvE also, I don't hate it. That's the difference between being a knucklehead and being grounded in reason, being able to see above the trees. 

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, RCPK said:

PvP whether you like it or not, is something that MANY people would enjoy doing, and enjoy it more were it more balanced.

I have no idea what server you are on, but I can say with confidence there is a great variety in ATs and power set combinations running about in RV here on Torchbearer.  I do not see this great imbalance you are referring to.