A question for those who know their tanks.

[Shred Monkey]

I've said this before.  I absolutely love everything about EM except the performance.  The animations are just spectacular.  And the sounds are ferocious.  I had a brute back in the day who just ran Total Focus > Bone Smasher > Energy Transfer > Bone Smasher > repeat.  Nothing but 2 handed animations with big balls of bad@$$ on his fists.  As a brute, he was horrible.  Fury build up was abysmal and he literally had zero AoE attacks.  But man was he fun to watch.

[drbuzzard]

8 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Speaking of EM... is ET/Gloom/TF/Gloom still the best possible ST attack chain for a brute? Or a tank, apparently.

That's not quite true.

 

Have to take numbers from in game (and do the math myself since the in game numbers and math are often FUBAR). I'm also not going to figure out actual optimal attack chains since I'm lazy. I will put in what I recall from tanks I have and how I can chain.

Energy Transfer: damage 241, animation 2.67 sec, DPAS: 90

Total Focus: damage 188, animation 3.3 sec, DPAS 57

Gloom: damage 78.32, animation 1.1, DPAS 71.2

So for the chain 241+188+78/ (2.67+3.3+1.1)= 72

Considering energy punch has a higher DPAS than total focus, you'd be wise to work it into the chain (but this is what you wanted to compare)

 

Let's try War Mace

Clobber: damage 154, animation 1.23, DPAS 125

Pulverize: damage 86.64, animation 1.5, DPAS 58

Jawbreaker: damage 104, animation 1.83, DPAS 57

Gloom: damage 78.32, animation 1.1, DPAS 71.2

so for the chain 154+87+104+78/(1.23+1.5+1.83+1.1) = 74.7 so a slight edge, and you also have AOE in the set.

 

Let's try Stone Melee, always known for single target power.

Stone Fist: damage 53, animation .83, DPAS 63.65

Heavy Mallet: damage 120, animation 1.63, DPAS 74

Stone Mallet: damage 86, animation 1.61, DPAS 53

Seismic Smash: damage 188, animation 1.5, DPAS 125

Gloom: damage 78.32, animation 1.1, DPAS 71.2

We can easily chain all these (which won't be optimal since stone mallet kinda sucks)

53+120+86+188+78/(.83+1.63+1.61+1.5+1.1) = 78.7

I'm pretty sure a better chain can be built using more stone fist and taking out stone mallet.  (this is being tried on my SM/Bio brute without perma hasten, so it's the best chain I can do- numbers are still tanker)

SS, SF, HM, SF, G, SF, repeat

188+53+120+53+78+53 /(1.5+.83+1.63+.83+1.1+.83)= 81.1

 

There might be better possible, but that's certainly not bad.

 

I'd consider doing fire melee, but I hate the DoT calculations.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by drbuzzard

[Bill Z Bubba]

Sorry for the confusion, @drbuzzard but I was just wondering whether if you're going to use energy melee, is et/gloom/tf/gloom still the best chain. You're right, of course, about EP, will have to do some number crunchin and see what's what.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[drbuzzard]

I doubt it. TF just has a lousy DPAS.

 

241+78+188+78/(2.67+3.3+1.1+1.1) = 72

That doesn't really change much since adding in more Gloom which has a DPAS about the same as the (not really chain) chain I posted can't shift it any. Energy punch has a DPAS of 63 iirc, so there's no helping it (and bonesmasher is even lower than energy punch though higher than total focus).

 

For the hell of it, let's look at ET like it used to be (had a 1 second animation like power thrust)

DPAS is stupid east to calculate 241/1 (derp) so 241 DPAS.

Of course working up a chain is more than I want to figure out right now, but just imagine what that does to an average when most everything else tankers have seems to cap at 125. Back at the dawn of time I did a fairly extensive analysis of the tanker secondaries with chains and all that good stuff. This was back before war mace got buffed, with the original tanker sets. Energy melee was single target king, and it wasn't even vaguely close.

Edited July 16, 2020 by drbuzzard

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

I doubt it. TF just has a lousy DPAS.

 

241+78+188+78/(2.67+3.3+1.1+1.1) = 72

That doesn't really change much since adding in more Gloom which has a DPAS about the same as the (not really chain) chain I posted can't shift it any. Energy punch has a DPAS of 63 iirc, so there's no helping it (and bonesmasher is even lower than energy punch though higher than total focus).

 

For the hell of it, let's look at ET like it used to be (had a 1 second animation like power thrust)

DPAS is stupid east to calculate 241/1 (derp) so 241 DPAS.

Of course working up a chain is more than I want to figure out right now, but just imagine what that does to an average when most everything else tankers have seems to cap at 125. Back at the dawn of time I did a fairly extensive analysis of the tanker secondaries with chains and all that good stuff. This was back before war mace got buffed, with the original tanker sets. Energy melee was single target king, and it wasn't even vaguely close.

Ohhh, you're not using arcanatime for your cast times are ya?

 

Unsure how accurate mids is, but I've got arcanatime turned on and this is what it's now showing for DPA.

 

 

EDIT: So IF Mids is right, best chain should be ET/BS/TF/BS.

 

EDIT2: Or even ET/BS/TF/EP if you can swing the recharge. But gloom is definitely out. Sucks that I'm stuck with Barrage on this tank.

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[drbuzzard]

Nope, no arcanatime, just the numbers from in game for animation. I know they're off, but I don't know arcanatime well enough to figure out how that might skew things. I guess it adds some time to things based on counter clicks which puts a hit on lower animation attacks.

 

It is a bit weird since the results from that chart don't make a lot of sense. Both energy punch and bone smasher are higher DPAS than gloom (and even barrage, which makes no sense at all) even though bonesmasher is longer animation, while energy punch is shorter animation and by listed time, both are behind it.

[Omega-202]

6 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 Sucks that I'm stuck with Barrage on this tank.

Almost like there might be benefits to Brutes that someone didn't want to acknowledge in a different thread...😏

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Omega-202 said:

Almost like there might be benefits to Brutes that someone didn't want to acknowledge in a different thread...😏

I acknowledged that point mentally. If I neglected to do so in the thread, my bad. 🙂

[Bill Z Bubba]

24 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

Nope, no arcanatime, just the numbers from in game for animation. I know they're off, but I don't know arcanatime well enough to figure out how that might skew things. I guess it adds some time to things based on counter clicks which puts a hit on lower animation attacks.

 

It is a bit weird since the results from that chart don't make a lot of sense. Both energy punch and bone smasher are higher DPAS than gloom (and even barrage, which makes no sense at all) even though bonesmasher is longer animation, while energy punch is shorter animation and by listed time, both are behind it.

Here's how it looks without arcanatime.

 

 

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/ArcanaTime

 

EDIT: Then again, I'm not sure that gloom is using the right AT damage modifier for ranged attacks. Wasn't all that also reworked for the tank buffs?

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[drbuzzard]

The tanker buffs did change the ranged AT modifier for tanks. This is why I'm using in game numbers.

 

Is that from Mids? If so, their numbers are often FUBAR as well. Maybe a mix of damage numbers between in game and Mids might get us somewhere close to the truth.

 

I'll read up on arcanatime.

[Bill Z Bubba]

24 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

I'll read up on arcanatime.

While I've grown to mistrust all the numbers from in-game and Mids... arcanatime is something I literally spent years testing with attack chains and pylons. The lady was dead on and crazy smart.

[drbuzzard]

I think I'm going to be forced to work on a spreadsheet project.

[Camel]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Ohhh, you're not using arcanatime for your cast times are ya?

 

Unsure how accurate mids is, but I've got arcanatime turned on and this is what it's now showing for DPA.

 

 

EDIT: So IF Mids is right, best chain should be ET/BS/TF/BS.

 

EDIT2: Or even ET/BS/TF/EP if you can swing the recharge. But gloom is definitely out. Sucks that I'm stuck with Barrage on this tank.

 

I would say to hell with Energy Punch, but that’s just me. I can’t throw any fancy numbers at you. But I can tell you that it would take so many Energy Punches to even come close to the damage ET+TF can dish out. It might take 6 seconds between the two.. but who cares when you’re 2 shooting bosses! 😎 
 

This gets even whackier on teams. I’ve had ET hit for over 3k before and TF for 2.5ishk. That’s almost 1000 DPS when you do the math. My gut tells me you’ll notice better performance not using attacks like Barrage and Energy Punch. But that’s just my experience on my Fire/EM. My attack chain is Burn -> Energy Transfer -> Total Focus -> Bonesmasher, then repeat. If I have a Speed Boost I can seamlessly run that attack chain, but - Bonesmasher.

 

Just last night I was tanking for a level 46ish team, we were fighting Nemesis. We had zero buffs, it was 6 Blasters, myself and a Scrapper. +2/+3Mob encounters looked like this: I’d taunt one mob into another, target a Fake Nemesis then pop Build Up and Fiery Embrace, some red inspirations if I have them, Energy Transfer Fake Nem, Burn, Total Focus Fake Nem (which dies at this point) then I drop Whirling Hands and the entire mob is down except maybe another boss or Lt. If it’s a boss, Energy Transfer and one more Total Focus is usually enough.

 

I guess what I’m trying to say is, Energy Melee almost feels like it doesn’t give a damn about DPA. I’ve tried a fast attack chain with high DPA attacks on bosses before. It took a lot longer than just popping double Build Up and slapping them silly with ET and TF. But maybe, maybe I’m more delusional than I think 😅

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Camel said:

This gets even whackier on teams. I’ve had ET hit for over 3k before and TF for 2.5ishk. That’s almost 1000 DPS when you do the math. My gut tells me you’ll notice better performance not using attacks like Barrage and Energy Punch. But that’s just my experience on my Fire/EM. My attack chain is Burn -> Energy Transfer -> Total Focus -> Bonesmasher, then repeat. If I have a Speed Boost I can seamlessly run that attack chain, but - Bonesmasher.

Unfortunately that's all countered when running solo which I do still the majority of the time.

It's actually gotten to the point where I flag characters as "awesome on teams" vs "works solo."

And I was very wrong earlier. My new Louis Cypher is indeed a fire/em tank and not an em/fire brute. I'm gonna go ahead with the plan to do ET/Bar/TF/Bar as his attack chain.

[Camel]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Unfortunately that's all countered when running solo which I do still the majority of the time.

It's actually gotten to the point where I flag characters as "awesome on teams" vs "works solo."

And I was very wrong earlier. My new Louis Cypher is indeed a fire/em tank and not an em/fire brute. I'm gonna go ahead with the plan to do ET/Bar/TF/Bar as his attack chain.

I’m pretty sure it would work solo too, especially at +2x8. The Nemesis encounter I mentioned was practically solo even though I was on a full team. I was downing Fake Nems and almost all of the Lts. and minions before my team could catch up to me. One thing I’ve noticed is that your AoE attack chain will likely kill all the other mobs as you cycle through your ST attack chain. Heck, a fully self-buffed Burn and Whirling Hands is enough to do at least 1/3 -> 1/2 of some bosses health at +2. We could always team on Excelsior if you want to check out the performance. Not sure how far you are into your build.

[drbuzzard]

The damage from total focus and energy transfer are deceptive because of the long animations. Energy transfer is still pretty solid with a 86 DPAS (using arcanatime), but total focus does less damage for the time than energy punch (but about the same as bone smasher). I bet you'd do a better attack chain using ET, BS, G, and EP if you worked it out. Total focus may hit hard but that doesn't matter if it takes forever when you'd do more damage in that time with other attacks.

 

Let's ignore how things actually work, and say we could just chain total focus or energy punch by themselves into an attack chain.

 

EP, EP, EP...

or

TF, TF, TF...

 

We'll do 10 TF to make it easy to give the picture. That will take 34.3 seconds and do 1880 damage

In that time we can do 37 energy punches. Each of those does 52.83 damage. Summed up they come to 1961 damage.

 

You lose damage in any time spent on total focus over energy punch. Though it's not a huge difference, it is there.

 

Gloom also has better damage in the time, so in that 10 TF time it would do 2261 damage.

 

Of course I did a bit of testing with my psi melee tank and it seems the damage listed for the attacks don't match what I see when I do combat log, so I question most numbers. However slow attacks are still slow attacks and make for lousy attack chains.

[drbuzzard]

Just did a quick google spreadsheet to use arcanatime to derive DPAS (damage per activation second). Of course given how questionable the in game number are (as are the ones in Hero Designer), I'd take it all with a grain of salt.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NS-91u75M8w59aXExuRSYkODoJQLQhH5CGcL7Dvk9hk/edit?usp=sharing

 

I suppose I should be clear why I question the numbers:

A) If you read the provided numbers for tankers, they very often don't add up if you look at the listed numbers at the bottom compared to the total damage at the time. Single damage type attacks seem to fare better in this (War Mace or Stone Melee). Psi melee, dark melee, or energy melee all have issues when you pull up the in game numbers.
B) Because I was curious about why psi melee looked so bad when I collected numbers (using the below numbers, not the above numbers), I ran one of my tanks that used it and looked at what I was getting in the combat log. Of course resistance could be the issue to some degree, but it was higher than the below numbers certainly.

Edited July 16, 2020 by drbuzzard

[kiramon]

Hate to say it, but the reason Arcanatime doesn't matter for most folks is they simply don't queue attacks like what it requires to actually matter.  For Arcana Time to matter in real combat, people have to be targeting a new target (if a target is going to die) and queueing an attack during an animation. Most people here don't play that way (sorry, not sorry), so the numbers are a bit misleading. 

 

For theorycrafting/on-paper analysis, ofc Arcana Time is the way to go, though. 

 

[nihilii]

1 hour ago, kiramon said:

Hate to say it, but the reason Arcanatime doesn't matter for most folks is they simply don't queue attacks like what it requires to actually matter.  For Arcana Time to matter in real combat, people have to be targeting a new target (if a target is going to die) and queueing an attack during an animation. Most people here don't play that way (sorry, not sorry), so the numbers are a bit misleading. 

That's a worthy point to make. At the same time, once you play without queueing attacks, any talk of optimization is almost futile - the gap between queueing and not queueing powers is going to be bigger than squeezing +10% performance here and there. So it's fair to assume, IMHO, if someone is asking about attack chains at all, then they're queueing powers and arcanatime is relevant to them.

[drbuzzard]

Whether or not aracanatime matters for most folks, if you intend to compare sets, you need to compare them at their actual numbers (which means arcanatime) when used optimally. You can't really do a meaningful comparison with variable gaps between powers. One can assume even in casual usage, the sloppiness will be roughly equal across sets, and the comparison will still be valid from the optimal case.  

[Sir Myshkin]

10 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

A) If you read the provided numbers for tankers, they very often don't add up if you look at the listed numbers at the bottom compared to the total damage at the time. Single damage type attacks seem to fare better in this (War Mace or Stone Melee). Psi melee, dark melee, or energy melee all have issues when you pull up the in game numbers.
B) Because I was curious about why psi melee looked so bad when I collected numbers (using the below numbers, not the above numbers), I ran one of my tanks that used it and looked at what I was getting in the combat log. Of course resistance could be the issue to some degree, but it was higher than the below numbers certainly

The values you see posted in the actual game are accurate to level 50 base line performance. Level differences, resistances, etc, will all alter that value up or down accordingly. You should see two things, an enhanced value and a base value ["$enhancedvalue ($basevalue)"] in the power management "Show Detail" screens. Where it says "Damage per Activation" is how much the attack does out-right at level 50.

 

There are a multitude of things that can change your values on the fly like Fury, Defiance, some mechanics stack damage, things like Follow Up which buff in the attack cycle, etc. If you want a flat experiment to verify, go punch a Pylon in the RWZ. It has base 20% resistances (which you can calculate out from the game's values).

 

Edit to add: While Mid's isn't perfect and correct 100% of the time, most of its base values should be correct (like 95%, I'm being generous on possible error). Things that may not seem to line up correctly would be cases like having a damage proc in a power, Mid's will try and use the algorithm (somewhat brokenly) to give an estimated damage, and that number will never correctly match in game because of the proc in the power that the game doesn't count as actual damage in the attack's status windows.

 

Edited July 17, 2020 by Sir Myshkin

[drbuzzard]

6 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

The values you see posted in the actual game are accurate to level 50 base line performance. Level differences, resistances, etc, will all alter that value up or down accordingly. You should see two things, an enhanced value and a base value ["$enhancedvalue ($basevalue)"] in the power management "Show Detail" screens. Where it says "Damage per Activation" is how much the attack does out-right at level 50.

So let's take a look at what it says under Dark Melee for example:

Shadow Maul: on top of the screen when you check info while building a tanker it says: 123.98 damage

However when you check the details we get 4 ticks of 10.69 smashing and the same of negative energy. That's 85. I'd call that a discrepancy. Midnight grasp is also screwed up with a listed damage of 158.89 up top, but below we have 116.75+5 ticks of 5.81 which comes to 145.8

 

I did notice that Psi melee has one of those % chance DoTs and I'll just leave that alone since figuring that damage is annoying.

 

I suppose I could go pound on a pylon to verify actual numbers, but I rather lack that level of dedication.

 

 

[Sir Myshkin]

15 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

So let's take a look at what it says under Dark Melee for example:

Shadow Maul: on top of the screen when you check info while building a tanker it says: 123.98 damage

However when you check the details we get 4 ticks of 10.69 smashing and the same of negative energy. That's 85. I'd call that a discrepancy. Midnight grasp is also screwed up with a listed damage of 158.89 up top, but below we have 116.75+5 ticks of 5.81 which comes to 145.8

I looked into this specific concern and the issue you're seeing is Bug and should be reported as such. The normalized data at the top is including the DoT "fire" damage when the power is used while [Fiery Embrace] is active. It can be easily accounted for by just adding up the totals of the power itself, plus the Fire DoT, and that's exactly what's posted at the top for both Shadow Maul and Midnight Grasp. Those are the only two DoT inclusive abilities though, and the only two (from what I just looked at) that are impacted in Dark Melee.

 

The individual data is still accurate, but the addition at the top is incorrectly adding a conditional value. Again, if you're seeing something like that a quick math-check is all it takes, and you can report those Bugs as you find them.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Picking this thread just cuz....

 

Someone pls check my math. This look right?

 

RechargeTime = BaseRecharge/(1+%)

For ET/BS/TF/BS attack chain using arcanatime for casts

ET: Cast 2.904 Rec 20s
BS: Cast 1.716 Rec 8s
TF: Cast 3.432 Rec 20s

 

Time between ETs = 6.864
Time between BSs = 2.904
Time between TFs = 6.336

 

Recharge needed for ET: 6.864 = 20 / (1+x) = 191% total recharge
Recharge needed for BS: 2.904 = 8 / (1+x) = 175% total recharge
Recharge needed for TF: 6.336 = 20 / (1+x) = 216% total recharge

Edited July 18, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba