Rad or Invuln

[Xavier51]

Hi all, 

 

I'm currently playing a Rad/Fire Brute for farming inf and boosting up my other characters.

I've yet to set a main character, I always used to play an Invuln/SS Tanker back on live, is Invuln still up there with the top tier armors like Rad/Bio as I'm torn between Rad and Invuln armor.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

[marcussmythe]

Invuln is still among the toughest, and can be made almost arbitrarily so if that is your focus.  Invuln also matures WAY earlier - so will in particular be stronger at tanking low level TFs - perhaps the place a tank is most needed.

 

Radiation armor is quite tough, and very much so late in the game when you have used IOs to cap almost every type of resistance and have large absorb layer on top.  It takes longer to get there - mine felt muuuch squishier than my invuln until the late 40s - but it does get there.  You also get two PBAOE Procnukes that double as healing powers, as well as a useable T9.  As a later developed set, Rad does more damage, sustains better, and is basically better designed.

 

That being said, if your main focus is on survival, especially early survival and against smashing and lethal damage, Invuln is an excellent choice.

Edited July 17, 2020 by marcussmythe

[Xanatos]

@Xavier51

 

Rad is objectively better at the high end. (Min/maxed at 50 with IOs). It has an absorb shield which provides an extra layer of mitigation. (Especially useful when tanking Hamidon/Tyrant/Crimson Prototype/unresistible attacks.)

 

Although, at that point, it's just a numerical advantage. In practice they'll be as tanky as each other. I've tanked all the aforementioned on my invuln and been just fine. Capped defense and resistances to all, plus dull pain, makes you basically unkillable. If you're unkillable it doesn't really matter if another armour set performs better. Invuln is still a top 5 armour. (Top 5 being - Bio/Rad/Dark/WP/Invuln) Plus you can always put a superior entomb in KO Blow for some +absorb.

 

So, yeah, go with whichever one you think looks cooler / suits the character concept more. I love Invuln. My fave powerset in the game. But if you're torn I'd say go with rad. It's newer. And is better.

 

Oh, also worth mentioning that Invuln has a "minfx" option for its powers. So if you don't want any of the armour glows/etc showing over your costume then invuln would be ideal.

 

Hope this helped.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Xanatos

[drbuzzard]

One thing nobody seems to have mentioned in radiation's favor is that you will basically have unlimited endurance once the set is up and going. I basically never see my blue bar go down. Invulnerability has no endurance recovery tools in the set. 

[marcussmythe]

Otoh - One minor edge to Invuln is the greater CC and Debuff resistance effect of being a mixed set.  Though Rad has solid debuff resitances, the whole ‘never gets missed’ aspect of a non-defense set means my rad struggles more under debuffs than does my invuln, though Im working on using winter-os to cover the recharge debuffs and that will help.  Similarly, though neither one gets badly mezzed, my Invuln has basically never been stunned/held through its toggles, even as I close on Vet 100.  My rad does spend some time drunkwalking against stun-heavy foes - and suppressed survival toggles can make that dangerous.  Also, shes often mezzed for a split second here or there - oh, look, beta decay is off.  AGAIN.

 

Finally, ofc, my Invuln is sturdier under S/L than is my Rad.  Both have capped resists, but the invuln adds softcap (or incarnate softcap, depending on build) defense - which means things that feature super-heavy s/l damage (ITF, Bobcat, DE Monster Walls) are much easier on the Invuln.  Thats not a huge swath of lvl 50 content, but its there.

[drbuzzard]

I've generally found that my rad/SS tank only dies when I forget to pay attention to my health bar (which happens when I get fixated on SMASH!) and I do a whole lot of ITFs. 

[marcussmythe]

Id believe that.  I think some of it comes down to trading off extra (largely unnecessary) resilience to gain a lot in other areas.

[drbuzzard]

1 hour ago, marcussmythe said:

Id believe that.  I think some of it comes down to trading off extra (largely unnecessary) resilience to gain a lot in other areas.

I do have most damage types close to resistance cap or at it. I also have particle shielding on autoclick with a fast recharge. 

 

Though really most of my tanks at this point have to do something wrong on a +4 ITF to die. Of course I build around that in a way since I do so many. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

30 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

I do have most damage types close to resistance cap or at it. I also have particle shielding on autoclick with a fast recharge. 

 

Though really most of my tanks at this point have to do something wrong on a +4 ITF to die. Of course I build around that in a way since I do so many. 

Heh. You are not alone. ITF is still my favorite.

[marcussmythe]

Given the apparent consensus that Rad is ‘just better’, what would we change (if anything) about other sets in light of that fact?

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, marcussmythe said:

Given the apparent consensus that Rad is ‘just better’, what would we change (if anything) about other sets in light of that fact?

Torn on that. I'd like to see melee SR get the Sent SR treatment with Master Brawler. But if we tweaked all the mitigation sets to match the overall utility of Rad, we'd definitely be losing some flavor.

[drbuzzard]

I don't know that I'd say rad is that much better, mostly I'd say rad is more convenient because of the endurance aspect. Personally I'd like to see a lot of the general defensive sets get the treatment from sentinels where all of them have some kind of endurance recovery tool. 

[Omega-202]

26 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

Given the apparent consensus that Rad is ‘just better’, what would we change (if anything) about other sets in light of that fact?

This is obviously a Tank thread, therefore this concensus should be considered to extend mostly to Tanks.  I've found Rad to be a bit squishier than I'm comfortable with on non-Tanks, and by contrast, Invuln to be a better choice for Stalkers and Scrappers looking to bulk up.  

 

So I don't think anything really needs to change.  The armor sets are all in a pretty good spot (except non-Sentinel Regen) and each shines on different ATs.  

[FUBARczar]

8 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

This is obviously a Tank thread, therefore this concensus should be considered to extend mostly to Tanks.  I've found Rad to be a bit squishier than I'm comfortable with on non-Tanks, and by contrast, Invuln to be a better choice for Stalkers and Scrappers looking to bulk up.  

 

So I don't think anything really needs to change.  The armor sets are all in a pretty good spot (except non-Sentinel Regen) and each shines on different ATs.  

yeah I have a fully IOd StJ/Invuln Stalker and it is not as survivable as my /Fire, /Shield, /Bio, /Rad stalkers at anything.  And don't even get me started on how much of an end hog it is.  It's like it's broken.  Seriously, I could never recommend Invuln.  Perhaps on a Tank with Energy Mastery or Destiny Hybrid Ageless it's good.  

 

in case you were wondering what I am playing.  This is exactly how it is currently spec'd

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[drbuzzard]

Yeah, I find that on any tanker set which lacks an endurance power energy mastery is mandatory  for how I like to play. 

[marcussmythe]

Hmm.  Maybe port out the Sentinel changes. (Merge REle and RNrg, add sustain power).

 

Stop there?  What else?  Patch Psi and Toxic up to REle levels?  Those holes really aren’t needed, given than plenty of other sets dont have huge ‘wreck me’ holes.  Fix Unstoppable? (Id just steal Meltdown, or add a toggle at half of meltdown’s values)?

 

Amusingly, when I read that, it sounds like too much, but at the same time, I wouldnt stop using Bio or Rad for it.

 

That said, Fubar - Ive got a KM/Invuln, and shes a bit tougher than most of my other scrappers and stalkers.  Im not sure what we are doing differently.

 

 

[Omega-202]

1 hour ago, FUBARczar said:

yeah I have a fully IOd StJ/Invuln Stalker and it is not as survivable as my /Fire, /Shield, /Bio, /Rad stalkers at anything.  And don't even get me started on how much of an end hog it is.  It's like it's broken.  Seriously, I could never recommend Invuln.  Perhaps on a Tank with Energy Mastery or Destiny Hybrid Ageless it's good.  

 

in case you were wondering what I am playing.  This is exactly how it is currently spec'd

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I'm genuinely curious how you find other defensive sets more survivable than that.  Mine's in the same ballpark (more Impervium psi resists in there to boost that to 31%) and I just facetanked as a Stalker through TinPex today without a hiccup.  How are you hitting SL cap, ~50% ENFC and ~30%Psi/Tox, with softcapped defenses to all but Psi, with perma HP cap with any of those other sets?

 

Regarding endurance, I don't have any issues.  In prolonged fights, I need to pop a blue occasionally if I'm running Barrier over Ageless (I have both and swap depending on the scenario), but for standard TFs and missions, I'm never running into issues.  Running Assault probably isn't helping your end very much and it is also not really doing a ton for your damage in the grand scheme.

[Hjarki]

Radiation on a Tanker is probably the best armor set for pure tanking. Unlike other sets, it gets a broad array of resists so it doesn't really have a 'hole' - when Radiation Tankers talk about their 'Cold hole' they're talking about "oh, I only resist 70% of Cold damage". Radiation also provides significant amounts of healing/regen, recovery and recharge. So basically the only thing you need to bring to the table is damage and defense when choosing your secondary.

 

Invulnerability is what I'd call a 'weak' Tanker set. It has no taunt aura, it's weak to everything except S/L and it's focused on typed rather than positional defenses. It has no bonuses to recharge or recovery with minimal healing. Radiation can do what Invulnerability does better in pretty much every respect except max hp.

[marcussmythe]

-points to suggestions board-  Dont tell me, tell the developers.  🙂

 

Mind you, I dont think its as bad as all of that (my invuln holds up better under fire than my Rad - she just gives up a ton of utility for that tiny bit of survival) - but if people whoarent named me wanna lobby for buffs, I wont argue.

 

I think a lot of it is IOs.  Rad loves IOs up to a point (resist caps) but there is just no point, and little value, in chasing DEF (never have high numbers, no DDR).  So when I building for -tough-, my Invuln ends up sofcapped casually, and some builds will incarnate softcap with 1 in range - without using barrier.

 

On the other end, pure SOs, Rad is out in the cold.  It -needs- Set bonuses in resist to shine.

 

In between those domains is where Rad is awesome - layer on enough resist for caps, and stop there - thats ‘tough enough’ for basically anything - and then usethe headroom for utility and damage.  Having a good T9 and two built in nukes is just candy.

 

It also helps that the only real ‘holes’ Radiation has amounts to stuff that doesnt happen at endgame.  A Meta where cold w/res debuffs was as common as energy/w debuffs is would change Rad’s feel pretty definitely.  Rad just feels like it was built by someone who was cheating - looking at the end game and building a set for it.

 

That all said - Inv/EM, Rad/SS, Bio/Titan - play them all, and Inv is the most comfortable for me.  Go figure!

Edited July 19, 2020 by marcussmythe

[FUBARczar]

6 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

I'm genuinely curious how you find other defensive sets more survivable than that.  Mine's in the same ballpark (more Impervium psi resists in there to boost that to 31%) and I just facetanked as a Stalker through TinPex today without a hiccup.  How are you hitting SL cap, ~50% ENFC and ~30%Psi/Tox, with softcapped defenses to all but Psi, with perma HP cap with any of those other sets?

 

Regarding endurance, I don't have any issues.  In prolonged fights, I need to pop a blue occasionally if I'm running Barrier over Ageless (I have both and swap depending on the scenario), but for standard TFs and missions, I'm never running into issues.  Running Assault probably isn't helping your end very much and it is also not really doing a ton for your damage in the grand scheme.

believe me I am miffed about it.  But I have run several +4/8 ITFs and have dropped toggles b/c of end.  The only other set I ever go low on is Shield, but nearly to the same extent.  And Invuln's -def cascade seems to happen more quickly.  I solo'd the first two missions of ITF on +4/8 on my Rad/Shield as a test w/o dying.  The Invuln has not been able to do that so thus far.  I am hoping that as I finish off adding +5 enhancers on anything enhancing endurance reduction and finish the accolades the endurance issue will come under control.

 

as for psi I have a second all-around build

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[Xanatos]

16 hours ago, marcussmythe said:

Given the apparent consensus that Rad is ‘just better’, what would we change (if anything) about other sets in light of that fact?

 

On tanks?

 

WP should be given a better taunt aura.

 

Ice could do with having its energy hole filled.

 

Shield and Invuln could do with having the end cost of their toggles dropped slightly.

 

Fire Armour could do with a little love.

 

The rest seem mostly okay. Although I imagine some IO-reliant sets like Dark may need tweaks for the casual 1-50 grind. (But I can't really comment on that as I exclusively play at 50 with IOs.)

 

8 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

 Seriously, I could never recommend Invuln.  Perhaps on a Tank with Energy Mastery or Destiny Hybrid Ageless it's good.  

 

I use neither of those on my Invuln tank.

 

He has 58.9% defense to everything except psi.

 

He has 90% res to everything.

 

He also has an absorb shield up every 5 seconds due to the tanker ATO.

 

He never dies. Against anything. At any difficulty level. I feel like I've failed if I have to click on Dull Pain. He's that unkillable.

 

I have barrier and T2 purples to shut down any defense debuffs/stop Lord Recluse from hitting me. Although a good 99.9% of the time I don't have to use them even then. Invuln is just that good.

 

7 hours ago, marcussmythe said:

Hmm.  Maybe port out the Sentinel changes. (Merge REle and RNrg, add sustain power).

 

Stop there?  What else?  Patch Psi and Toxic up to REle levels?  Those holes really aren’t needed, given than plenty of other sets dont have huge ‘wreck me’ holes.  Fix Unstoppable? (Id just steal Meltdown, or add a toggle at half of meltdown’s values)?

 

My invuln has 90% psi resist. The psy hole only exists 1-50. And Invulns doing 1-50 content are fine as they are. It doesn't need tweaking, people just need to learn how to build.

 

As for Unstoppable? I'd like that left alone. It's the sole power that makes Invuln viable in PVP. It has no PVE function, granted, but Invuln is already so good it doesn't need one.

 

IF an Unstoppable change were to take place, then it'd have to be lessening the impact of the crash. That way Unstoppable would be a power casual players could use going from levels 1-50, and respec out of once they hit level 50 and the land of IOs. (Specifically: removing the -HP loss from the crash. And maybe lessen the -end from -100% to -75%.)

 

6 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Radiation on a Tanker is probably the best armor set for pure tanking.

 

Nope. That's Bio. Rad is #2.

 

6 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Invulnerability is what I'd call a 'weak' Tanker set. It has no taunt aura, it's weak to everything except S/L and it's focused on typed rather than positional defenses. It has no bonuses to recharge or recovery with minimal healing. Radiation can do what Invulnerability does better in pretty much every respect except max hp.

 

Rad is a better armour set, but some of your comments on Invulnerability are objectively incorrect:

 

Invincibility is -literally- a taunt aura.

Dull Pain is one of the best heals in the game.

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2020 by Xanatos

[Omega-202]

3 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

believe me I am miffed about it.  But I have run several +4/8 ITFs and have dropped toggles b/c of end.  The only other set I ever go low on is Shield, but nearly to the same extent.  And Invuln's -def cascade seems to happen more quickly.  I solo'd the first two missions of ITF on +4/8 on my Rad/Shield as a test w/o dying.  The Invuln has not been able to do that so thus far.  I am hoping that as I finish off adding +5 enhancers on anything enhancing endurance reduction and finish the accolades the endurance issue will come under control.

 

as for psi I have a second all-around build

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But that' mostly irrelevant to your earlier complaint.  You said that Invuln is not as tough as other sets.  Again, show me other sets that hit Invuln's numbers.  Regarding cascading defense failure, Invuln has debuff resistance in Tough Hide and more resistance than any defense based armor set.  Shield's only benefit is stacking Active Defenses, but that's only if you take the time to refresh it constantly.  Otherwise Invuln is no better or worse than other sets when it comes to Def debuffs, and is probably better because it can fall back on its super high resists and Dull Pain's super heal.  

 

The fact that you're having end issues is an issue with your build, and not necessarily one with Invuln. I dont have any because I have accounted for it elsewhere in my build and took the time to get the accolades.  

[marcussmythe]

I wonder if we have yet convinced the OP to just run Rad and Bio.  🙂

[Omega-202]

30 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

I wonder if we have yet convinced the OP to just run Rad and Bio.  🙂

For a Tank, they probably should. My apologies for derailing on the Invuln discussion, but like I said earlier, I think Invuln is better suited for the squishier melee ATs and is overkill for Tanks.  Rad and Bio are overall better designed sets and shine on Tanks.  

[Hjarki]

2 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

You said that Invuln is not as tough as other sets.  Again, show me other sets that hit Invuln's numbers.

There's a chart out there somewhere that shows it. Invulnerability is good against S/L (largely worthless due to the fact that you get +12% from ATO and +15% from Toughness) but poor against all other damage types. Its "heal" is actually a 360 sec recharge hp buff. It has no recharge, recovery, regeneration or +damage.

 

It just doesn't bring a whole lot to the table. It's fair-to-middling in terms of durability and it brings nothing else to the table besides merely being somewhat adequate at resist/defense. If you've got an Invulnerability build, it's nearly certain that you could swap out Invulnerability for another power set and you'd end up with a stronger build.