Dual Pistols - Suppressive Fire - BLA/DEF/COR

[BrandX]

Can we give this the Sentinel Treatment?

 

This set lacks a snipe, it's one of the lowest damage blaster sets, and it's be nice to have a reason to grab it for more than it's Hold aspect.

[Apparition]

Dual Pistols is only one of the lowest damage ranged damage sets if you don’t use Incendiary rounds and Hail of Bullets is bugged right now.  Testing has shown that if you use Incendiary rounds and Hail of Bullets is unbugged, Dual Pistols is in about the fifth spot for single target DPS, and just behind Fire Blast in AoE damage.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Apparition

[Vanden]

Plus holds are way useful.

[Sakura Tenshi]

3 hours ago, Apparition said:

Dual Pistols is only one of the lowest damage ranged damage sets if you don’t use Incendiary rounds and Hail of Bullets is bugged right now.  Testing has shown that if you use Incendiary rounds and Hail of Bullets is unbugged, Dual Pistols is in about the fifth spot for single target DPS, and just behind Fire Blast in AoE damage.

that seems to be a two-fold issue of fire-damage generally being 'too good' (doesn't seem terribly often resisted and it's secondary effect is more damage) combined with dual pistols on it's own being a lethal set, and lethal damage is honestly awful right now, but that's another matter, really. DP does seem a little slaved to Incendiary ammo though and it makes me question if anyone makes decent use of the other two munition types at all.

 

Honestly, if a change was made to Dual Pistols, I'd like Executioner's shot to deal bonus damage against Stunned/Slept/Held opponents, giving it a synergy with suppressive fire.

[Apparition]

1 hour ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

that seems to be a two-fold issue of fire-damage generally being 'too good' (doesn't seem terribly often resisted and it's secondary effect is more damage) combined with dual pistols on it's own being a lethal set, and lethal damage is honestly awful right now, but that's another matter, really. DP does seem a little slaved to Incendiary ammo though and it makes me question if anyone makes decent use of the other two munition types at all.

 

Honestly, if a change was made to Dual Pistols, I'd like Executioner's shot to deal bonus damage against Stunned/Slept/Held opponents, giving it a synergy with suppressive fire.

I used Cryo ammunition up until level 35 while soloing Praetoria from Nova Praetoria through Night Ward.  It helped a lot with all of those danged ambushes.

[Parabola]

Being a hold it procs out very nicely which helps single target dps. Having said which I've generally felt that dual pistols just feels a bit slow with it's single target attacks. Not necessarily a numbers thing but simply a feel thing. I'm not sure whether it's each individual animation or the way they maybe don't flow together quite right but the whole thing seems slightly stop start. I love the animations in general so it's not that I have a problem with the whole gun fu thing, I just wish it felt a touch faster.

[Lex Talion]

18 hours ago, Apparition said:

Dual Pistols is only one of the lowest damage ranged damage sets if you don’t use Incendiary rounds and Hail of Bullets is bugged right now.  Testing has shown that if you use Incendiary rounds and Hail of Bullets is unbugged, Dual Pistols is in about the fifth spot for single target DPS, and just behind Fire Blast in AoE damage.

Where would I find that test?

[BrandX]

I'm curious on that test too, as the set was low on the list of damage back on live and I don't recall seeing many changes to Pistols on HC.

 

And if we can't give it more damage, how about lowering it's recharge.  Though, I still think the pitiful damage it does, needs improving.

 

Dark Blast's hold has same recharge and does way more damage.   Electric, tiny bit more damage with faster recharge.  Ice has two holds both with faster recharge and lots more damage.  

[Apparition]

It is correct that Dual Pistols had low damage prior to sunset, but that does not apply on Homecoming as Dual Pistols was substantially buffed in the Issue 24 beta.  From the Issue 24 wiki page:

 

Ranged attack sets without Snipe powers (Dual Pistols, Ice Blast, Sonic Attack, and Water Blast) will be looked at to ensure they remain competitive after the Snipe change. Dual Pistols, specifically, will have some of its animation times shortened to increase its damage per activation time in addition to other mechanical improvements.

 

That came to pass.  Many of the Dual Pistols' animation times were significantly shortened, leading to substantially better DPA than prior to sunset.

 

As for the test, I'll look for it when I'm off from work.  But to be frank, a lot of the "Dual Pistols is bad!" posts are either based on very old information from Issue 23 and prior, or cognitive bias because it doesn't have a snipe.  When frankly, it doesn't need a snipe as it is very competitive without it, and one of the reasons why it is my favorite ranged damage set is because it doesn't have a snipe.

 

 

[Apparition]

Okie, now that I am off from work, @Lex Talion, @BrandX :

 

On the August 8th, 2012 Issue 24 beta patch notes:

 

 

Quote

 

Dual Pistols

• Dual Pistols/Pistols: This power will now cause minor fire damage over time if Incendiary Ammo is active, apply a minor slow if Cryo Ammo is active and apply a minor damage debuff if Chemical Ammo is active.
• Dual Pistols/Empty Clips: Reduced this power's cast time from 2.5 seconds to 1.67 seconds.
• Dual Pistols/Bullet Rain: Reduced this power's cast time from 2.4 seconds to 1.67 seconds.
• Dual Pistols/Executioner's Shot: Reduced this power's cast time from 2.57 seconds to 1.67 seconds.

 

 

That substantially increased the DPA of Dual Pistols.

 

As for the test, you can see the results by Kezeal here.  Take it with a couple of large grains of salt (Assault Rifle is only #1 on AoE DPS if mobs don't flee, for one), but it's fairly on target.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Apparition

[Lex Talion]

19 hours ago, Apparition said:

As for the test, you can see the results by Kezeal here.  Take it with a couple of large grains of salt [...] but it's fairly on target.

Thank you for taking the time to dig that out, much appreciated.

 

I gotta say that the grain of salt is more like a solid chunk, though. Unless I fail to read those tables correctly they all seem to assume the maximum recharge of +400% to build attack chains, which, for a self-buffed toon, is unlikely to sustain, to say the least.

For the sake of comparing pure set capabilities, in the case of aforementioned Dual Pistols, even the second best realistic chain Piercing - Pistols - Executioner's - Pistols would require +255% recharge. If you cannot or don't want to dedicate a build to recharge to that extent an attack chain has to use Dual Wield, which has below average DPA and drags down the overall DPS with its animation time.

[Ralathar44]

On 7/28/2020 at 12:37 PM, Sakura Tenshi said:

that seems to be a two-fold issue of fire-damage generally being 'too good' (doesn't seem terribly often resisted and it's secondary effect is more damage) combined with dual pistols on it's own being a lethal set, and lethal damage is honestly awful right now, but that's another matter, really. DP does seem a little slaved to Incendiary ammo though and it makes me question if anyone makes decent use of the other two munition types at all.

 

Honestly, if a change was made to Dual Pistols, I'd like Executioner's shot to deal bonus damage against Stunned/Slept/Held opponents, giving it a synergy with suppressive fire.

DPS doesn't matter if you're dead.  Safety first, DPS Later. If your group is in a DPS race with the enemies to see whether you die or not then it's a matter of WHEN you die, not IF, unless you're DPS is insanely overboard for the mission (4 blasters rotating aim + buildup for +2/+3 spawns like the team I was in a few days ago). 


When safety is not a concern you can use fire ammo.  When safety is a concern you can use cryo or poison.  You've got multiple secondary effects (including base lethal) that are useful in various situations.  That's a level of flexibility most ranged DPS power sets don't have.  If you're going max speed max farm.....IMO that's the last playstyle that needs to dictate balancing changes unless something is EGREGIOUSLY out of line.  If normal balance is aimed "within 10%-15% of targeted power range" then farming balance is more like "within 30% of targeted power range".  (numbers are just a ballpark example)

 

 

On 7/29/2020 at 11:31 AM, Apparition said:

As for the test, I'll look for it when I'm off from work.  But to be frank, a lot of the "Dual Pistols is bad!" posts are either based on very old information from Issue 23 and prior, or cognitive bias because it doesn't have a snipe.  When frankly, it doesn't need a snipe as it is very competitive without it, and one of the reasons why it is my favorite ranged damage set is because it doesn't have a snipe.

I pulled death groups all last night without issue for a struggling team.  A run, a hop, and a power activation so you're still traveling away mid air while your animation plays out.  I was pulling mobs with explosive arrow trusting the tanker to clean it up as it trickled in with flash arrow (I was a TA/A Defender) ensuring we didn't get full pulls and making them trickle in rather than rush.  If I can safely pull in that situation (even without flash arrow) then snipe isn't needed to pull.  The team could barely handle one group but the groups were too close together for the tanker to go in and they tried pulling with their blackwand but too much downtime getting only singles (with and without blind).

I have thematic problems with using snipe as part of a rotation.  I prefer using it to pull or pick off runners.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Ralathar44