Consideration of "Report Incursion" Feature in Theoretical Unrestricted Access by Alignment Game

[FoulVileTerror]

SO!   It's been coming up a lot on the forums again lately.  That lovely old nugget of allowing Heroes in Redside zones and Villains in Blueside zones.

(my own post on the subject from a while back:  https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/19655-weekly-discussion-53-how-to-increase-villain-population/page/7/?tab=comments#comment-222758 )

It has a lot of merit,  but it's also probably prohibitively complicated with the current development resources.

All the same, there's no reason not to come up with ideas, share them, and put them through the rigours of critique.

 

Please be mindful:  This isn't one of the threads to argue the merit or feasibility of unrestricted access to Zones regardless of Alignment.  There are plenty of other threads where that topic is still fresh and ripe for debate.

THIS thread is meant to address one particular idea and its potential merits or flaws in a hypothetical world where the unrestricted access is assumed to have happened.

 

A frequent complaint/concern is the complication posed by allowing characters who are, by all narrative rights, violently opposed to one another in to the same space.

In places like Rikti War Zone or Pocket D, the justification is that there is a higher power at work (Vanguard and DJ Zero, respectively) who enforce a non-aggression stance, and have justification for allowing these enemies a space to either work together or socialize together.

Cool!  

Although that justification is really flimsy in Cimerora . . . but it's there too.  AND places like Dark Astoria and The Abyss have the narrative justification that the area is plagued by a threat so severe that only idiots would fight one another while in that zone . . . eh, it also doesn't meet full muster from a narrative standpoint, BUT in all these cases it's important to facilitate a productive gameplay experience for everyone present, so we let it slide.

 

But if we start allowing Heroes in to Port Oakes, or (heavens to Betsy!) let a Villain run around in Kings Row . . . well, that's REALLY pushing it.

In my previous post on this subject, I mentioned that we would need to come up with a new narrative justification to allow for such a change to the gameplay, or introduce new gameplay elements to function within the existing narrative.

However!   Any new gameplay element would need to be meet several criteria to pass muster.  It would need to be non-disruptive to regular gameplay that has existed since the inception of the game.  It would need to provide appropriate risk and reward on par with existing gameplay.  It would need to respect the players' rights to choose how and where they engage in PvP.  It would need to be functional, predictable, and meet an expectation of fair play.  And it would also need to be enjoyable!

 

To that (significantly preambled) end, I propose:

Report Incursion!

"If you spot an enemy player in your home territory, you may use this Power to flag them to the local authorities.  Since such threats could be deceptively powerful, the local constabulary will deploy the appropriate response to neutralize or deter the threat."

 

The idea is to give players in their native Zone an Inherent Power that can only be used on an invading player.

This Power would trigger an Outdoor Ambush to seek out and attack the invader, much like the Longbow and PPD ambushes on Mayhem Missions.

 

Now, of course, we'll need to bake some limitations in to this to ensure it doesn't become a tool for harassment.  And, simultaneously, design it so it can be used to actively discourage harassment from the invader.

 

So, first draft . . . 

 - AoE (to report whole teams of invaders)

 

 - Max Targets 255 (maximum, even though the zone limit on players would make this functionally redundant right now, may as well not limit it as far as I can see)

 

 - Range 150', unenhanceable (sniper range, granting reporting players the opportunity to flag an invader from a distance in case said invader is moving at very high speeds)

 

 - Radius 30', unenhanceable (nice and big, so that those teams of invaders can all get flagged together)

 

 - Autohit (Defense/Elusivity shouldn't enter in to this, as the "attack" is like Surveillance or Power Analyzer)

 

 - Recharge 30 seconds, unenhanceable (so that a player doesn't have to wait too long before they use it again)

 

 - The target of this Power is then Flagged as "Reported" for the next 50 seconds, and is immediately targeted by seek-and-destroy Ambushers (PPD and/or Longbow against Villains in Blue Zones, and RIP and/or Arachnos against Heroes in Red Zones).  These Ambusher NPCs are levelled and mobbed according to the target players' individual difficulty settings (so, yes.  A large team who all have themselves set to +4/x8 who all get smacked by this Power at the same time could be in for a VERY rude awakening for their hubris).  These Ambushers will also have absolutely NO WAY to target local players, so that if a Confuse Power is used by an Invader, there is no way to turn the police against the local players.

 

 - A Flagged target can not have the Report Incursion Power used on them while already Flagged.  So, if they managed to defeat their Ambushers in 5 seconds, they've got 45 seconds of free time to kill.  Alternatively, and the main reason for a 50 second Flagging period, if a player gets overwhelmed and -can't- beat their Ambushers in that time limit, it will at least give them the opportunity to consider retreat before another new Ambush is Flagged on to them.

[MTeague]

I'm not sure if you might need a longer "safe" period between when another ambush can be sent after you, but that could be worked out experimentally / adjusted with feedback.

I love the basic idea.

 

I also sort of want

 

"Snatch Purse"

- disguises you as a Hellion for X duration

- during this time, makes you completely beneath the notice of all PPD or Longbow

- However you gain -200 Knockback Resistance, and there is a small % chance of a Hero running up and sending you flying

[FoulVileTerror]

I had it at 90 seconds in my first version, but then wrote the caveat about beating the ambush in 5 seconds.

85 seconds seems like a pretty long grace period.

 

 . . . but maybe that's worth investigating further.  Start at 90 seconds, then every subsequent Flagged status reduces the grace period by 15 Seconds, to a minimum of 45 Seconds.  

In addition to, or in lieu of, perhaps Ambushers should gain +1 Level for each time you are Flagged.  Basically up the ante each time.

Both of these would reset when you spend X amount of time back in your own territory.  Maybe . . . 5 minutes?  So the invader can't just simply jump back to the Isles/Paragon, then return to Paragon/the Isles and have a fresh rap sheet.

 

The other problem I am seeing if players intentionally Malefactoring/Exemplaring themselves, and then dropping that when the Ambushers come looking for them.

To that end, perhaps these Ambushers should always be levelless "invasion" enemies?  But then, of course of course, we run in to the issue that level 5 Arachnos/Longbow are NOT the same as level 45 Arachnos/Longbow, regardless of what level they're conning at.  It's definitely a wrinkle that would need to be resolved, or at least carefully weighed out before committing to either possibility.

[Greycat]

... eeeeeeeeehhhhhhh...

 

A couple of thoughts.

 

1. Is this solely for ... let's call it "pure" alignments? (hero/villain) Because there are an awful lot of people it seems who are running grey just because they want to be able to jump sides to run content with their friends or SG (or just "whenever it comes up,") and i'm fairly sure a good number don't care if they picked Vig or Rogue, it's just "grey." After all, in this (theoretical) world, while the *zones* may be open, the *content* likely wouldn't be (Posi wouldn't call a hero to save the dam. Which itself is another wrinkle or ten with how these NPCs would react, but that was mentioned, and not really part of the discussion as a whole.)

 

2. There'd have to be more of a timer, for multiple reasons - both to keep opposing-alignment (which I'm just going to list as OA, now) players from getting swamped, and to keep it from being too farmable. (Yeah, I know, you can farm in AE, there are missions, etc. but still.)

 

3. I'm ... a cynic when it comes to people behaving, which is part of why I mention #2. I remember the original Sonic graphics all too well and asking people not to put them on, and having people (open world, not just accidentally "forgot while I was bubbling the team") deliberately keep bubbling characters because "huh huh *snort* dat funny *grunt*." And people disrupting RP events has been a thing, historically. So, yeah, I see the possibility of this being a harassment tool, so some mechanic against that would need to be built in.

[Coyotedancer]

This whole idea reads as "Yeah! Let's let any anyone play in the zones on either side.... And then punish them for doing so by making the experience a total pain in the rump!"

[Monos King]

6 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

This whole idea reads as "Yeah! Let's let any anyone play in the zones on either side.... And then punish them for doing so by making the experience a total pain in the rump!"

I see it more as letting them earn it, since they aren't supposed to be there anyway. Conditions apply, and all that.

 

This doesn't actually propose for new contacts and missions to be added in hero zones for villains and vice versa, so I can't see it being an issue theoretically.

[FoulVileTerror]

You feel this is too punishing?  Based on your reply in the other thread, is it correct to figure that you'd like to have unlimited access despite any kind of narrative function of Hero or Villain Alignments? I could personally be happy with that being the case too, but I don't see it as particularly likely.  Given the feelings that other players have in opposition to that stance, I'm trying to strike a compromise to give everyone a little something to meet their needs and interests here.

Would you perhaps be able to offer any kinds of alternatives to alleviate the punishment you describe?  I always like to work on these as collective tasks, where we all pitch in to make something that can have broad appeal and maintain functional objectives.

[Coyotedancer]

Just now, Monos King said:

I see it more as letting them earn it, since they aren't supposed to be there anyway. Conditions apply, and all that.

 

This doesn't actually propose for new contacts and missions to be added in hero zones for villains and vice versa, so I can't see it being an issue theoretically.

 

And that may be our fundamental disagreement... I don't see it as anything that needs to be "earned". 

[McJigg]

Any system you propose needs to be less annoying than talking to Null in Pocket D to get around it.

[Coyotedancer]

1 minute ago, FoulVileTerror said:

You feel this is too punishing?  Based on your reply in the other thread, is it correct to figure that you'd like to have unlimited access despite any kind of narrative function of Hero or Villain Alignments? I could personally be happy with that being the case too, but I don't see it as particularly likely.  Given the feelings that other players have in opposition to that stance, I'm trying to strike a compromise to give everyone a little something to meet their needs and interests here.

Would you perhaps be able to offer any kinds of alternatives to alleviate the punishment you describe?  I always like to work on these as collective tasks, where we all pitch in to make something that can have broad appeal and maintain functional objectives.

 

If we want to turn all of the zones into areas that all characters can access, I just don't see the need to throw up any kind of obstacle, punishment or road-block to doing it. But then, I'm not really a roleplayer, or someone who cares all that much about the underlying "plot" of the City. I see it as a game first and a storytelling exercise second, and as such feel like considerations that ease play trump considerations of narrative.

[FoulVileTerror]

This is meant to be a theoretical bit of practice operating on the assumption that Null the Gull was either removed, or that Hero Contacts were added to Redside and Villain Contacts to Blueside to appeal to a form of gameplay which has (at least according to user posting habits) pretty substantial appeal to vocal players.

 

I have no illusions about this happening, let alone any time soon.  But it doesn't hurt anyone to contemplate the depth of the idea and seek means of improving upon it.  We can function as a community to harness creative thinking for problem solving.  Because even if this exact idea with these exact requirements doesn't come to exist, the exercise of designing it is helpful for related developments in the game.

[FoulVileTerror]

The nature of City of Heroes is that it appeals to some very broadly different perspectives.   "It's just a game" is certainly one with a lot of strong support, but even then, the hows and whys of gaming and play are deeply subjective.  Some players thrive under restrictions, while others (including myself) prefer variety and options galore.  And then when it comes to the narrative, we have die-hard conservatives spouting the "but comic books" mantra, while others see the setting as having immensely more depth to be plumbed.  

 

I believe it's important to try and strike a balance to meet these extremes, but doing so without their direct input would be unproductive.  Naturally, nothing is going to be lauded by everyone as perfect . . . but that is absolutely no excuse not to make strides toward meeting the desires and expectations of those various perspectives.

[Coyotedancer]

16 minutes ago, FoulVileTerror said:

The nature of City of Heroes is that it appeals to some very broadly different perspectives.   "It's just a game" is certainly one with a lot of strong support, but even then, the hows and whys of gaming and play are deeply subjective.  Some players thrive under restrictions, while others (including myself) prefer variety and options galore.  And then when it comes to the narrative, we have die-hard conservatives spouting the "but comic books" mantra, while others see the setting as having immensely more depth to be plumbed.  

 

I believe it's important to try and strike a balance to meet these extremes, but doing so without their direct input would be unproductive.  Naturally, nothing is going to be lauded by everyone as perfect . . . but that is absolutely no excuse not to make strides toward meeting the desires and expectations of those various perspectives.

I really doubt you're going to be able to placate the alignment essentialists, and while making cross-zone play annoying or punitive might make them happier than a free-for-all approach, it's also likely to defeat the purpose of the change. Anyone who DOESN'T care to be ambushed or attacked for daring to be in an a particular zone may be as likely to say "To hell with this!" and go back to playing on their 'own side' as not... I know I sure as heck wouldn't stick around under your proposed system. 

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[FoulVileTerror]

Although, Coyote, you said you play Rogues, right?

I'm not suggesting Rogues get Ambushers on them.

Just the dyed-in-the-wool Villains.  And only when they are determined to stay as a Villain while in Paragon City.

Operating under the assumption that Villainous Contacts were added to Blueside, a Rogue would still be able to use those Contacts just as they do in Redside Zones, but without any threat of Ambush.

 

I'm guessing I failed to fully articulate that.

[tidge]

I support this only if all Costume Contests are moved to Grandville.

[Coyotedancer]

20 minutes ago, FoulVileTerror said:

Although, Coyote, you said you play Rogues, right?

I'm not suggesting Rogues get Ambushers on them.

Just the dyed-in-the-wool Villains.  And only when they are determined to stay as a Villain while in Paragon City.

Operating under the assumption that Villainous Contacts were added to Blueside, a Rogue would still be able to use those Contacts just as they do in Redside Zones, but without any threat of Ambush.

 

I'm guessing I failed to fully articulate that.

It might not matter... Remember that in a lot of places the game code still tags Rogues as Villains and Vigs as Heroes. Zone access is one of the few things that doesn't... 'No clue given the state of the City's back-end if that's something that an ambush flagging system could also do or not.