Is game balance pointless in MMORPGs?

[jubakumbi]

24 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And yet Hawkeye managed to kill the Hulk. Granted, he rezzed, but whatever.

Using a device special made to Hulk-bust, by Dr. Banner, just in case the moment became necessary.

Not quite the same thing as channeling the energy of a star.

 

It's not that I think Balance is bad, on the contrary, because with balance the DPS lemmings enthusiasts make the game seem like it's only 'worth' playing certain things when the game has outliers like TW, for example. People who think the numbers are all that matter get controlled by them in droves in all games.

 

In a game where the whole point is to be able to create the gamut of things we can here, knowing that some characters are intended to be gods and others mere mortals, does it not make sense to concentrate on making the game have the challenges the creator of those characters choose to pit them against to further their narratives, from street thugs to Galactic Arch Villains, rather than try and make them 'do equal units of the same damage measurement'?

 

The current difficulties are a great start, these and the Ouroboros settings show us, IMO, that the way to do it is through the settings of the content, not force all characters to a DPS/Rewards Per Minute baseline.

 

There is room for all of this, IMO, if we are each allowed to set the difficulty where we like it.

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And yet Hawkeye managed to kill the Hulk. Granted, he rezzed, but whatever.

Never underestimate the power of plot armor! 😁

[Bill Z Bubba]

26 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Using a device special made to Hulk-bust, by Dr. Banner, just in case the moment became necessary.

 

Just now, ShardWarrior said:

Never underestimate the power of plot armor! 😁

 

Let's not forget all the times Batman kicked the crap out of everyone.

 

 

27 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

The current difficulties are a great start, these and the Ouroboros settings show us, IMO, that the way to do it is through the settings of the content, not force all characters to a DPS/Rewards Per Minute baseline.

 

And I do. I set my melee characters to max diff while all the others get relegated to the "only team to have fun or suck a butt while solo" section of my character list. Most of the time, they get put on that list for no other reason but that I haven't T4ed Clarion and stuck it on auto. Too bad that's still 50+ levels of suck for no other reason but that they lack even minimal proper mez protection due to a silly design choice 15+ years ago.

 

Even then, having to use my melee characters to fund all the non-melee because their inf/hr rate is so horrifically pathetic makes the whole thing kinda stink.

[Sovera]

3 hours ago, Judasace said:

Scrappers are not alright. Why do you think so many are gravitation to TW? Because it's the only set that lets them be on a par with Brutes and Blaster. With the increased survivability of blasters, the higher caps on damage and res for Brutes, Scrapper sets being full of smashing/lethal and mostly ST damage, there's nothing about scrappers that puts them on a par in damage or survivability over those other ATs.

 

People complain about support not being needed...except they still are in TFs/Trials anything with a hard target. Aside from current TW, there is no situation where it isn't better to have a brute or blaster than a scrapper.

 

...what? Brutes lag behind every other melee AT. They get no defensive bonus so the same slotting on a Scrapper will yield the same numbers on a Brute.Then they have crap for ATOs. Brutes are good for specialized farming. Scrappers kick their butts otherwise.

 

You should not be throwing words like facts.

 

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And yet Hawkeye managed to kill the Hulk. Granted, he rezzed, but whatever.

Meh, plot device.

13 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Let's not forget all the times Batman kicked the crap out of everyone.

Also plot device. When the writer wills it things happen. They can call it whatever they want. You know the feat where Spider-man defeated the Hulk? He made him laugh with a joke and he turned to Banner.

[Judasace]

12 minutes ago, Sovera said:

...what? Brutes lag behind every other melee AT. They get no defensive bonus so the same slotting on a Scrapper will yield the same numbers on a Brute.Then they have crap for ATOs. Brutes are good for specialized farming. Scrappers kick their butts otherwise.

 

You should not be throwing words like facts.

 

You have no idea what you're talking about. Defense might be the same, they have both higher RES and Damage caps. They can out damage and out tank scrapers all day long.

 

You should not be throwing noise like words.

[Sovera]

Just now, Judasace said:

You have no idea what you're talking about. Defense might be the same, they have both higher RES and Damage caps. They can out damage and out tank scrapers all day long.

 

You should not be throwing noise like words.

Mmkay.

[Bill Z Bubba]

31 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Also plot device. When the writer wills it things happen. They can call it whatever they want. You know the feat where Spider-man defeated the Hulk? He made him laugh with a joke and he turned to Banner.

 

It's always plot devices. And we should be able to have them in game.

[Bill Z Bubba]

17 minutes ago, Judasace said:

You have no idea what you're talking about. Defense might be the same, they have both higher RES and Damage caps. They can out damage and out tank scrapers all day long.

 

You should not be throwing noise like words.

Lies. No brute can outdamage any scrapper. Using exact same builds for claws/sr I've proven this time and time again. You are wrong. Full stop. And you can thank the scrapper AT IOs for that.

Brutes DO have better HP and higher res caps. That part is true.

[Sovera]

17 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

It's always plot devices. And we should be able to have them in game.

I was actually thinking of that one as I was writing the previous post.

 

16 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Lies. No brute can outdamage any scrapper. Using exact same builds for claws/sr I've proven this time and time again. You are wrong. Full stop. And you can thank the scrapper AT IOs for that.

Brutes DO have better HP and higher res caps. That part is true.

No no, Bill, the correct answer is: mmkay.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Sovera said:

No no, Bill, the correct answer is: mmkay.

Nah, our country is in the shape it's in because we ALL have not spent nearly enough energy calling out garbage for what it is when we see it.

/just the facts, maam. That's all I care about.

[Luminara]

22 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

It's always plot devices. And we should be able to have them in game.

 

I'm a plot device, but no-one ever uses me.  Such a disappointment.

[Judasace]

18 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Lies. No brute can outdamage any scrapper. Using exact same builds for claws/sr I've proven this time and time again. You are wrong. Full stop. And you can thank the scrapper AT IOs for that.

Brutes DO have better HP and higher res caps. That part is true.

Under perfect test circumstances with the AT IOs this may be true.  For all practical purposes running 8 man teams in the game, the brute is going to end up doing more damage overall, when considering all the factors such as the enemies being fought, not having optimal IO slotting, the mobs the scrapper does more damage on (Lts and bosses) getting melted away by the blasters before the scrapper even get near them.

 

This is the whole reason TW is so popular, and so "out of balance" according to some. 

 

My point wasn't who does more damage one on one vs a pylon with poison trap on it. My point was that if given a choice, the Brute is always the better choice for a team. He'll have more survivability and do more damage under those circumstances.

 

But yeah, if it's a Pylon fight, I'm sure scrappers are great.

 

Also I was literally going to reply that Spidey beat up Firelord in response to your Hawkeye/Hulk post, but decided to let that one go by.

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 minutes ago, Judasace said:

My point wasn't who does more damage one on one vs a pylon with poison trap on it. My point was that if given a choice, the Brute is always the better choice for a team. He'll have more survivability and do more damage under those circumstances.

On a team, buffs are flying everywhere so survivability becomes moot. Want a perfect team? Scraps and corruptors. Don't bother with anything else.

 

The above statements are both opinions lacking numerical proof other than that one dude runnin max diff ITFs with quad-teams and scrappers are in the lead on time.

 

EDIT: My claws/sr scrapper clears max diff DA repeatables faster than the claws/sr brute. That's not pylon fighting.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Bill Z Bubba]

11 minutes ago, Luminara said:

I'm a plot device, but no-one ever uses me.  Such a disappointment.

There's a retort based on my devil-hood and your magic nipple but I KNOW the forum mods won't like it.

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Let's not forget all the times Batman kicked the crap out of everyone.

Yeah but he is Batman 😋

 

[Judasace]

6 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

On a team, buffs are flying everywhere so survivability becomes moot. Want a perfect team? Scraps and corruptors. Don't bother with anything else.

Except there's a whole thread going on as we speak about how support classes are useless on teams and in the high end game.

 

Everyone's got their opinions, and in practical situations, the Brute is going to be the preferred choice, for the ability to tank at the highest levels of the game if nothing else. All the contrived "testing" situations don't mean a thing when it comes down to what's actually being asked for in teams in game.

 

Or, to put it another way "mmkay"

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Judasace said:

what's actually being asked for in teams in game.

There's that edge case thing again. I never ask for anything when I build teams. But I would never prefer a brute over a scrapper unless I really wanted something with energy or stone melee.

Especially now with the tank buffs. Brutes are the ones that have become, sadly, superfluous.

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And yet Hawkeye managed to kill the Hulk. Granted, he rezzed, but whatever.

 

Pft.  Based off of the films alone, anyone can beat the Hulk.  Iron Man beat him in Age of Ultron.  So did Black Widow, and all she did was smile and bat her eyelashes.  Thor showed that he could beat the Hulk in Ragnarok.  Thanos trashed him in seconds.  And Cap can wield Mjolnir, which, as far as I'm concerned, means he could beat him.

 

Strongest Avenger, my ass.  My cat can beat the Hulk.

 

Where's a Hulk Sad meme?  Someone get on that, stat!

[Judasace]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

There's that edge case thing again. I never ask for anything when I build teams. But I would never prefer a brute over a scrapper unless I really wanted something with energy or stone melee.

Especially now with the tank buffs. Brutes are the ones that have become, sadly, superfluous.

Yeah, that may be true here. I've been branching out and playing more and more on other servers so I may be looking at things from a different perspective. I'm pretty much done with HC anyhow, TBH. I don't like how their vision has strayed so far from the original devs in some cases, while in others they've doubled down on Stupid Dev Tricks. They do seem to to play favorite with classes and who they choose to buff and nerf.

 

yeah, I think I'm pretty much done here, and with HC.

 

Peace.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

Pft.  Based off of the films alone, anyone can beat the Hulk.  Iron Man beat him in Age of Ultron.  So did Black Widow, and all she did was smile and bat her eyelashes.  Thor showed that he could beat the Hulk in Ragnarok.  Thanos trashed him in seconds.  And Cap can wield Mjolnir, which, as far as I'm concerned, means he could beat him.

 

Strongest Avenger, my ass.  My cat can beat the Hulk.

 

Where's a Hulk Sad meme?  Someone get on that, stat!

That's actually been my one major gripe about the MCU. They completely screwed over that character. ESPECIALLY with their horrid take on "Professor Hulk."

[Sovera]

I feel the same about Thor. From a stoic power house to a clown in a cape.

[Frostbiter]

59 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

I'm a plot device, but no-one ever uses me.  Such a disappointment.

Clearly you need some kind of Luminara symbol and a spotlight. It works for Batman.

[ShardWarrior]

37 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Pft.  Based off of the films alone, anyone can beat the Hulk.  Iron Man beat him in Age of Ultron.  So did Black Widow, and all she did was smile and bat her eyelashes.  Thor showed that he could beat the Hulk in Ragnarok.  Thanos trashed him in seconds.  And Cap can wield Mjolnir, which, as far as I'm concerned, means he could beat him.

Mjolnir is not a very good measure to go by, nor is "X can beat up the Hulk".  As examples, Thor has defeated and also has been defeated by the Hulk on various occasions throughout comic history. 

 

 

Plot armor can be very strong.  See Batman versus Hulk

 

 

Who does what to whom in the comics all depends on what plot armor the writer wants to use.

[Luminara]

15 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

Clearly you need some kind of Luminara symbol and a spotlight. It works for Batman.

 

And draw attention to myself?  A good plot device goes unnoticed until it's relevant.

[Luminara]

17 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Who does what to whom in the comics all depends on what plot armor the writer wants to use.

 

My cat can beat up the Hulk.  PERIOD, END OF STORY, FIN!

 

I'll send her after you next if you argue with me.  😛