Vanguard Merits - Potential there for more alternatives?

[SupaFreak]

My goals on this suggestion:

1. Don't add new currency to the game.
2. Make Vanguard Merits more desirable and accessible.
3. Incentivize players to do content outside of the Reward Merit or Incarnate realm.
4. Make playing your story arc or others (outside of Flashback) more desirable.
5. Make Safeguard & Mayhem bank missions more rewarding / desirable.

 

Suggested new NPC to possibly be located near the P2W vendors in starting zones:

Vanguard Scout

Offers simple task / mission or simple chat explaining they are seeking help against non-Rikti forces interfering with their interests outside of the War Zone.

Requirement: Level 10

Reward: The Vanguard Initiative badge 

(You've gained the ability to earn Vanguard Merits while not in Mission Architect or on a Alignment Mission, Task Force, Strike Force, Incarnate Trial, or Flashback against enemies that award you experience)

 

Possible Table Percentage chance by enemy Rank:

Underling = .3% chance of 1 Vanguard Merit

Minion = 1.5% chance of 1 Vanguard Merit

Lieutenant = 4% chance of 1 Vanguard Merit

Boss = 10% chance of 1 Vanguard Merit

Elite Boss = 25% chance of 1 Vanguard Merit

Arch-Villain/Hero = 66% chance of 1 Vanguard Merit

 

Possible Bonus Table Percentage (if possible) to each team member per mission required objective completed:

"Collect an Object" = 4% chance of 1 Vanguard Merit

"Destroy Object" = 7% chance of 1 Vanguard Merit

"Free a Hostage" = 10% chance of 1 Vanguard Merit

"Escort Ally" = 25% chance of 1 Vanguard Merit

 

In addition, Safeguard and Mayhem Missions will reward the following:

"Bonus Time" = 100%  of 3 Vanguard Merits

 

Currently 30 Vanguard Merits = 1 Reward Merit and Reward Merits cannot be broken down into Vanguard Merits.

I am suggesting this be left as is under this suggestion for the following reason:

 

There is no ability to re-acquire the bonus powers from Safeguard and Mayhem missions, but what if there was?

 

What if by having either the Force of Justice or Force of Nature badges you were eligible to craft at the Vanguard Crafting Table the following:

Raptor Pack = 300 Vanguard Merits
Zero-G Pack = 150 Vanguard Merits
Resuscitation = 150 Vanguard Merits
Summon Teammates = 600 Vanguard Merits
Movement Increase = 150 Vanguard Merits
Endurance Increase = 600 Vanguard Merits
Health Increase = 600 Vanguard Merits
Life Insurance = 150 Vanguard Merits
Regeneration Increase = 300 Vanguard Merits

 

Note: If you have a Vanguard Power active, you will not be able to craft a duplicate of that power (no Vanguard Merits lost)

 

Thanks for taking the time to look over this and comment (if you do) in advance and cya 'round in the City!

[Greycat]

Hmmmm.

 

Vanguard merits are in an odd place, as far as currencies. They did make some sense when introduced (though, yeah, it was "another new currency,") though I hated having costume bits locked behind them. Right now, there's just not much, though. There are a few one-shot items (salvage increase, for instance,) a few items you probably won't use often (Nectembo's curse breaker, psi shield, psi bomb) and the HVAS for 250. It's pretty much heading towards "depreciated."

 

I don't think they're that *in*accessible, either. Get the vanguard recruit badge, get merits for anything involving defeating Rikti. Get the day job, get V-merits at the end of any mission (not many - it's 1 or 2 - but they add up.) And let's not forget you're raking them in in the RWZ missions and mothership raids.

I'm somewhat of a lorehound, so to me just throwing merits at people doesn't really *do* much but dilute Vanguard. And for the temp powers... when I can already buy raptor packs,  rezzes, etc. cheaply (or get a permanent power,) why would I burn V-merits on temporary versions?

 

Getting back to the lorehound bit. 🙂 I don't think we should dilute their purpose, but the Vanguard scout being around that *early* does work - after all, we start getting introduced to the Lost just before then blueside (Perez/Hollows.) Having some "related" arcs pop up with this guy as a contact not explaining why they're interested could be fun. Interaction with Kheldians could be ... interesting, as well. (And yes. That can be done redside, too. There are Khelds over there.)

 

We could even get other "alien/dimensional incursions" that they're looking into and containing. More story arcs, more one offs, reinforcing what Vanguard's role is.

 

Which still leaves the question of what to *do* with the merits. Costume pieces are free (and should be.) I'm just not on board with the safeguard/mayhem mission thing, for reasons previously mentioned, plus... honestly I don't think too many people would be excited about them, generally. Plus, personally, I think I'd want to see the rewards stay "vanguard-themed" and varied. Say...

- Vanguard jetpack. We have the costume piece. This one's an actual jetpack. (Plus, it's small, so those who don't want the large jetpacks can use this one too.) 1 hour, up to 8 stacked.

- Vanguard reinforcement. Similar to the "summon reinforcement" power you can get at P2W, but with Vanguard NPCs. (Melee/Ranged/Support options.) 5 uses.

- Target dummy. Because, why not. (OK, granted, people could get obnoxious with this, but they do with other things like Ouro portals, too.) Targetable, use outside of missions. Short term, despawns after 1-2 minutes. 5 uses.

- Mini nova/dwarf pet. Vanguard deals with aliens. It fits. (Standard temp pet sizes.) Maybe a mini-Rikti too.

- Vanguard rifle/wand/blade temp powers.

We'd probably want bigger-ticket items (temporary and permanent,) too - though eventually it'd still get to the point where it's just a matter of "I've got everything, I'm converting to reward merits.") Maybe unique Vanguard-themed IO sets (or vanguard-themed single IO procs/effects?) Pull an AE-ticket-counter and throw a Vanguard merit badge in for 1000? (which is one rikti raid, generally.)

 

For me it's a question of "what would people want that's vanguard themed?"

[Heraclea]

Necro'ing this thread because the economy of vanguard merits seems extremely odd to me. 

 

Ran a kill-most LGTF to help someone get to level 50 today.  When the dust had settled I had earned ....

 

     ... wait for it ...

 

           32 vanguard merits!  That and $5.75 will get you a cup of coffee downtown. 

 

It may be just that the conversion of vanguard to reward merits should move back; that way I would have made myself three extra reward merits instead of just one.  But as an incentive for defeating Rikti and running the zone content, vanguard merits do not feed the weasel.  There is only one way to earn enough vanguard merits to use them for anything; you run the ship raid.  That's a full zone event that takes as many people as a Hamidon raid, takes at least three times as long, and is far less rewarding.  Vanguard merits need to be made easier to collect or the prices of things boughten with them should come down. 

[Replacement]

I'm not really a fan of turning them into additional merits, but I'm not really sure what additional pools there are to pull from.

 

How would people feel if the p2w goods all had a button to buy with vanguard merits instead of inf?

 

Also: feels like the Shadow Shard should be considered Vanguard stuff.

[Apparition]

Rikti mothership raids are not as rewarding as Hamidon raids.  You can do four back-to-back Hamidon raids in one hour and get 160 reward merits and a Hamidon origin enhancement.  In the meantime, one instanced Rikti mothership raid will take about a hour from start to finish and net you about 45 to 50 reward merits, and friends have directly told me that the reason that they don't join my MSRs are because they are not rewarding enough in comparison to other content.  Part of me would like to see the converter ratio reduced down to 20 Vanguard merits for every one reward merit, which would increase the net haul to about 70 to 75 reward merits.  However, I also remember the days early on Homecoming when people just farmed MSRs non-stop.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Apparition

[Monos King]

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

Rikti mothership raids are not as rewarding as Hamidon raids.

Unless you're a temp hunter in which case hamidon raids are worthless and mothership raids are awesome.

 

More temps for both pls.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Monos King

[Greycat]

On 2/18/2021 at 1:59 AM, Monos King said:

Unless you're a temp hunter in which case hamidon raids are worthless and mothership raids are awesome.

 

Well, that explains how the Rikti keep getting enough on their side for the raids. They keep hiring more temps.

[Heraclea]

On 2/18/2021 at 12:54 AM, Apparition said:

Rikti mothership raids are not as rewarding as Hamidon raids.  You can do four back-to-back Hamidon raids in one hour and get 160 reward merits and a Hamidon origin enhancement.  In the meantime, one instanced Rikti mothership raid will take about a hour from start to finish and net you about 45 to 50 reward merits, and friends have directly told me that the reason that they don't join my MSRs are because they are not rewarding enough in comparison to other content.  Part of me would like to see the converter ratio reduced down to 20 Vanguard merits for every one reward merit, which would increase the net haul to about 70 to 75 reward merits.  However, I also remember the days early on Homecoming when people just farmed MSRs non-stop.

Joining the Vanguard and doing the ship raid is a once and done thing for most characters.  I run it once to get enough vanguard merits for the salvage increase.   I will run the ship raid on the right character for fun; it's one of the places where masterminds shine, and it's also entertaining on the right tanker, but as you say it really isn't all that productive for the time it takes. 

 

If I get bored I may finish Levantra's first story arc, making sure that I have a mission skip available for the refinery mission.  In my head canon Vanguard is as bad or worse than Arachnos and the Rikti are honorable combatants. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Heraclea

[Ukase]

I do think the Vanguard Merit currently is in the same position as threads and emps and astrals were back in live for non-incarnate trials. On live, you'd run a mission at +4/8, clear a good sized map and come away with maybe 10-12 threads. With no astrals or emps as a reward, just the reward table, and you could only do it once a day, I think. It was woefully insufficient unless you did iTrials. The Vanguard Merit drop rate is also insufficient in all content other than MSRs. Is that for the best? A number of players do MSRs every day. Some even level their characters doing ONLY MSRs. Some probably do it for the social chatter, but I think the predominant motivation is easy xp/merit conversion once they get the badges associated, as well as the hvas and the salvage sack. 
Because of that, I don't think many would take advantage of this proposed system, unless the drops were meaningful, and it's difficult to see how meaningful they would be with the suggestion drop rates. 

//begin mini-rant

I would personally love it if the open zone MSR went by the way of the dodo bird. While most are polite and out for fun, it's nauseating to read/hear the same myths about stealth impacting spawns and/or taunt. Yesterday I was teamed with a level 4. That's reason alone to do the instanced msrs with Apparition. I can't pretend  to understand why this bothers me so much, but it does. Call it a pet peeve. I just don't see why I have to use all my powers while they just use brawl and a t-1 attack from their primary, if that. 

It's no secret that most that do an MSR put an attack on auto, and tab out and do something else, checking back in every few minutes. Support characters just spam heals on auto. Blasters will put some AoE attack on auto if they have it, if not, they target through a pet a single target attack. I would venture to say only 25% of the non-melee players are actively attacking/buffing as they would in a conventional mission. 

[Apparition]

41 minutes ago, Ukase said:

//begin mini-rant

I would personally love it if the open zone MSR went by the way of the dodo bird. While most are polite and out for fun, it's nauseating to read/hear the same myths about stealth impacting spawns and/or taunt. Yesterday I was teamed with a level 4. That's reason alone to do the instanced msrs with Apparition. I can't pretend  to understand why this bothers me so much, but it does. Call it a pet peeve. I just don't see why I have to use all my powers while they just use brawl and a t-1 attack from their primary, if that. 

It's no secret that most that do an MSR put an attack on auto, and tab out and do something else, checking back in every few minutes. Support characters just spam heals on auto. Blasters will put some AoE attack on auto if they have it, if not, they target through a pet a single target attack. I would venture to say only 25% of the non-melee players are actively attacking/buffing as they would in a conventional mission. 

 

110% seconded.  As far as I am concerned, there is no longer a legitimate reason to run a zone MSR.  Not a single one.  Zone MSRs take up three times as much server resources as an instanced MSR for no reason.  Instanced MSRs are better in every way.

 

A few people complained last night about people running stealth auras last night during my MSR.  I let them know that one of the people running stealth auras was me, with Shadow Fall. :P  Rikti not spawning in the bowl and/or not following taunters due to people using stealth auras in the bowl is a myth that was debunked long ago.  The real reasons why there are periods of no Rikti in the bowl are because of a lack of taunters, lazy taunters, people fighting on the rim and/or on ramps, or a combination of the three.  Usually a combination of the three.

 

It's hard to taunt Rikti to the bowl when the majority of the league are under level 20. :P

Edited February 19, 2021 by Apparition

[Monos King]

I have to disagree heavily with getting rid of the zone RWZ raids, the experience and interactivity of being in an actual zone for the event (and the possibility of just unknowingly strolling into one in process) were the greatest aspects for me first playing this, and though it's minor, I certainly wouldn't deprive any new comer of that agency.

[Apparition]

13 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I have to disagree heavily with getting rid of the zone RWZ raids, the experience and interactivity of being in an actual zone for the event (and the possibility of just unknowingly strolling into one in process) were the greatest aspects for me first playing this, and though it's minor, I certainly wouldn't deprive any new comer of that agency.

 

Of course, that comes with the side effect of both LGTF/Apex/Tin Mage/regular RWZ mission teams frequently being broken into two different RWZ maps (sometimes taking up to several minutes to regroup and get everyone onto the same map), and preventing other people from joining the MSR in progress.  Neither of which are an issue with instanced MSRs.

[Monos King]

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

 

Of course, that comes with the side effect of both LGTF/Apex/Tin Mage/regular RWZ mission teams frequently being broken into two different RWZ maps (sometimes taking up to several minutes to regroup and get everyone onto the same map), and preventing other people from joining the MSR in progress.  Neither of which are an issue with instanced MSRs.

I accept these consequences. Instanced raids are good for people that want that but I'm gonna keep running zone raids. Just a matter of preference, and I like having no player count constraints. Besides if the zone event were removed pylons wouldn't have any reason to be in the zone, and the ship would be there essentially as a relic, and the zone would just lose flavor. 

[Apparition]

9 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I accept these consequences. Instanced raids are good for people that want that but I'm gonna keep running zone raids. Just a matter of preference, and I like having no player count constraints. Besides if the zone event were removed pylons wouldn't have any reason to be in the zone, and the ship would be there essentially as a relic, and the zone would just lose flavor. 

 

What player count constraints?  You can have 48 people on an instanced MSR league, just like a zone one.  Lately I've been running them with five teams.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Apparition

[BelleSorciere]

4 hours ago, Monos King said:

I have to disagree heavily with getting rid of the zone RWZ raids, the experience and interactivity of being in an actual zone for the event (and the possibility of just unknowingly strolling into one in process) were the greatest aspects for me first playing this, and though it's minor, I certainly wouldn't deprive any new comer of that agency.

This is actually a big disruption, which is probably why other raids and trials happen in otherwise empty zones or in instances rather than in a zone that's also used for regular play. As @Apparitionpointed out RWZ also has fairly frequent TinPex TFs going on.

Edited February 19, 2021 by BelleSorciere

[Arli]

2 hours ago, Monos King said:

I accept these consequences. Instanced raids are good for people that want that but I'm gonna keep running zone raids. Just a matter of preference, and I like having no player count constraints. Besides if the zone event were removed pylons wouldn't have any reason to be in the zone, and the ship would be there essentially as a relic, and the zone would just lose flavor. 

I'd argue that the person running a zone version of the MSR is more likely to hit player limitations than the one running an instanced version of the same. There's still a player cap for the zone - 50. A player running a zoned version has to deal with other players trying to create/form tinpexes/LGTF teams, not to mention any teams that may feel like running the Vanguard missions. From a player's perspective, having to swap instances just because not all of us could fit in the zone JUST to start a tinpex is especially aggravating - and I do hold that against MSR leaders who choose to lead within a zone.

You can still only have a league up to 48 members. A player cap doesn't matter in this instance, because technically the zone and instanced versions still have the same theoretical player caps, it's just not as consistent for the zone version because of outliers that may be interested in doing other content.

 

I have experienced (previously) issues where I had been asked to leave the zone if I wasn't joining the MSR. I've also dealt with half of my team being in one instance while I was in the other (this disrupts my own play because I like buffing teammates in between missions). Additionally, it IS really annoying to have to zone back into my base or use long range teleport JUST to select a different instance for RWZ because an MSR happens to be going on in zone.

 

From my perspective, the instanced version is just better. If you're worried about zone flavor, that could be addressed by making it so the pylons are not targetable and attack players that are within reach. This way, no one's play is negatively impacted if they're interested in hanging out in the zone for anything else.

[Monos King]

3 hours ago, Apparition said:

 

What player count constraints?  You can have 48 people on an instanced MSR league, just like a zone one.  Lately I've been running them with five teams.

Oh I see. You thought I meant the maximum amount. I meant the minimum. As I recall you can't do instance raids with less than two full team. If I wanted to fight pylons on my own, or  was forced to queue up a raid with fledgling numbers, I wouldn't be able to do that if we only had the instanced version. So before removing the zone version could even be considered the minimum number to start it up would need to be significantly lessened. 

 

And even so I still wouldn't be in favor, simply because I like zone events.

[Arli]

Just now, Monos King said:

Oh I see. You thought I meant the maximum amount. I meant the minimum. As I recall you can't do instance raids with less than two full team. If I wanted to fight pylons on my own, or  was forced to queue up a raid with fledgling numbers, I wouldn't be able to do that if we only had the instanced version. So before removing the zone version could even be considered the minimum number to start it up would need to be significantly lessened. 

 

And even so I still wouldn't be in favor, simply because I like zone events.

You can still start an instanced version of MSRs with just one person. App usually starts his instanced MSRs by first creating an instance - joining it - and then inviting others to join him.

[Monos King]

13 minutes ago, Arli said:

You can still start an instanced version of MSRs with just one person. App usually starts his instanced MSRs by first creating an instance - joining it - and then inviting others to join him.

Oh really? Didn't realize that became a thing. Well that was the only real argument it against it, you guys do you.