Game Balance & The Endgame

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, HelBlaiz said:

There are a not insignificant number of afk farmers, from what I understand. That requires pbaoes that aren't Momentum dependent, and made better with an additional pbaoe aura. Aka, Spines and Rad farm better not because they do better in aoe, but because they're less hands on.

if you AFK farm sure you can us Staff or Foot Stomp, but I think Burn works better, so your primary doesn't even matter if the farmer is /Fiery Aura.

 

[Mezmera]

8 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Wait  . . . is anyone actually farming with regularity with TW? That would seem . . . extremely painful to me. lol

I fire farm with me Mind/Nrg dom.  

 

Oh noes I let the cat out of the bag!  Don't nerf meh!  😲

[HelBlaiz]

2 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

if you AFK farm sure you can us Staff or Foot Stomp, but I think Burn works better, so your primary doesn't even matter if the farmer is /Fiery Aura.

 

That is a fair point! However another damage aura is still free efficiency in Spines favor.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, ABlueThingy said:

 

How do they compare on the other stuff like Survivability and ST dmg?  I've not managed to get any TW up very high due to Momentum being a bucket of farts

Farming builds on farms do not require any mitigation from the primary, so it doesn't matter.  In the rest of the game it varies.

[Ralathar44]

15 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

The acquisition rate on live was cancer. The market prices compared to HC were ridic in hindsight. Folks who complain about having to play the market here, should have felt how long it took on live. The acquisition of IOs and relative ease of the market is one thing I think they got right.

 

IOs can make you stupidly powerful. But that's not an HC change. We were well towards that on live.

 

But as you alluded to I can't see a massive IO rebalance anytime soon. Well . . . if you think soon is 2060 😛 

I agree on all points.  This is how it was put in, for better or worse, and it's prolly not going anywhere anytime soon.  Thanks to ludicrously slow acquisition rates on live they never really had to face the good and the bad of sets and then do balance passes, as the HC team said....the end game is unfinished.  We're just kinda stuck for it and have to see if we can band-aid around whatever problems it does or doesn't have.  We're gonna need alot of chewing gum and duct tape lol.  Also, why are those not invention salvage 😄? 

Edited September 25, 2020 by Ralathar44

[Mezmera]

6 hours ago, Apparition said:

Using radio or newspaper missions to advocate for any kind of balance changes is a folly.  They’re intentionally easy and full of trash mobs.  And what do players do with them?  They intentionally run the easiest of easy missions with the trashiest of trash mobs.  There is no balance to be had there.

I'm a masochist and like to put TW scrappers in their place.  I've invited a friend or two to duo some +4/8 carnie mishs on my dom.  I'll fight it out alongside them relying on my damage and defenses then once the TW goes down I'll use my real controls.  

 

So yeah I don't really see why they're getting the nerf bat since I can only see it coming my way soon then based on other circumstances.  

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

The main change to easier acquisition of IOs were the seeding of the market, enhancement converters. (Though I think converts came at the end of live, so folks didn't really get to take full advantage of them.) Enhancement converters make it stupidly easy to make inf. Also the costs on merit vendors were reduced I believe.

Don't forget pooling IO levels, which instantly created supply at all levels, and funnels inf from high to low level characters.

 

The changes on the HC market are, frankly, genius.

[Mezmera]

5 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

Don't forget pooling IO levels, which instantly created supply at all levels, and funnels inf from high to low level characters.

 

The changes on the HC market are, frankly, genius.

Yes the grind is so much less.  I can play and build characters quickly and just have fun playing.  Live was a total grind fest where you'd pick the one character you want to invest completely in and that was about all you could hope for.  

 

All you need to do is get to vet level 1 and you can do the Apex/Tin mage which'll net you 80 merits in 30 minutes or so of playtime.  Then there's the daily Hami raids.  There's so much less gate keeping on HC than there was on live.   

[macskull]

3 hours ago, xl8 said:

Have to disagree. This is what broke regen and energy melee. And it came from listening to part time PVP players.

Oh hey, more wrong information in a thread full of wrong information!

[Mezmera]

13 minutes ago, macskull said:

Oh hey, more wrong information in a thread full of wrong information!

Right!  Everyone knows it was Russian bots!  😎

[ABlueThingy]

Just now, Mezmera said:

16 minutes ago, macskull said:

Oh hey, more wrong information in a thread full of wrong information!

Right!  Everyone knows it was Russian bots!  😎

It was me actually, I was using my Regen/EM tank to solo entire zones at once at level 32.  I once pulled Monster Island, all of it, and critted with an ET so hard it caused a stack overflow and delt -2,147,483,647 damage, crashed out Victory and gave Castle's mom hemorrhoids. 

 

The very next day they installed the Purple Patch, Aggro caps and nerfed both Regen and EM.  That's also why you can't have regen tanks anymore.  I'm so sorry.

[Mezmera]

6 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

It was me actually, I was using my Regen/EM tank to solo entire zones at once at level 32.  I once pulled Monster Island, all of it, and critted with an ET so hard it caused a stack overflow and delt -2,147,483,647 damage, crashed out Victory and gave Castle's mom hemorrhoids. 

 

The very next day they installed the Purple Patch, Aggro caps and nerfed both Regen and EM.  That's also why you can't have regen tanks anymore.  I'm so sorry.

I didn't realize dear leader Putin played.  And had such refined taste.  

 

Then again if you didn't accomplish this while also riding a bear then I highly doubt it's you nor could you call yourself a real hero.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Mezmera

[FoulVileTerror]

There aren't any bears in-game, so naturally the Regeneration / Energy Melee Tanker wasn't riding one.

 

The player was riding the bear.

[ABlueThingy]

5 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

I didn't realize dear leader Putin played.  And had such refined taste.  

Da Comrade.

 

I submit this picture as irrefutable proof:

6 minutes ago, FoulVileTerror said:

There aren't any bears in-game, so naturally the Regeneration / Energy Melee Tanker wasn't riding one.

 

The player was riding the bear.

Bear not pictured due to travel suppression.

[Mezmera]

52 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

Da Comrade.

 

I submit this picture as irrefutable proof:

Bear not pictured due to travel suppression.

Welp yeah that'll do it.  That's the picture that must have been hung over Castle's computer as motivation to keep pushing forward.  

Edited September 26, 2020 by Mezmera

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

I agree on all points.  This is how it was put in, for better or worse, and it's prolly not going anywhere anytime soon.  Thanks to ludicrously slow acquisition rates on live they never really had to face the good and the bad of sets and then do balance passes, as the HC team said....the end game is unfinished.  We're just kinda stuck for it and have to see if we can band-aid around whatever problems it does or doesn't have.  We're gonna need alot of chewing gum and duct tape lol.  Also, why are those not invention salvage 😄? 

Cause they'd probably be as expensive as Luck Charms were on Live.

 

A few marketer folks on here will get the joke. LOL

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, ABlueThingy said:

It was me actually, I was using my Regen/EM tank to solo entire zones at once at level 32.  I once pulled Monster Island, all of it, and critted with an ET so hard it caused a stack overflow and delt -2,147,483,647 damage, crashed out Victory and gave Castle's mom hemorrhoids. 

 

The very next day they installed the Purple Patch, Aggro caps and nerfed both Regen and EM.  That's also why you can't have regen tanks anymore.  I'm so sorry.

Where's the "It was me Dio!!!" meme when you need it?

[BitCook]

13 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

I've only seen door sitting allowed on Farms. Not actual TFs or content.

 

I won't discount the rest though as each person has their own experience.

 

One suggestion I would make is trying to form your own teams. 

 

I believe any 8 heroes clearing anything in the game is a key strength. It's NOT something I would want to see changed.

It's pretty common in what I've seen.  Usually it's PI team LF2M, any level.

So if you're bringing a level 1-10 to a party of +4/8 content... you're not contributing really.  So often people don't care what you do.

I would agree, being able to take any 8 people is a GREAT strength and wouldn't want to see that change.  That doesn't mean that I wouldn't also love to see underperforming ATs find a little bit better home and role.  The game used to have that and I do feel there was a time that it had relative class balance and roles while still retaining that core concept.  That was before kill speed was through the roof.  Again to clarify because people keep associating things to me that I don't believe in, while I would love that to come back, I think it would be the death of the game so no.  But, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't want to see perhaps ways to enhance control and support to give them a little better role in fast moving teams.

 

[golstat2003]

13 minutes ago, BitCook said:

It's pretty common in what I've seen.  Usually it's PI team LF2M, any level.

So if you're bringing a level 1-10 to a party of +4/8 content... you're not contributing really.  So often people don't care what you do.

I would agree, being able to take any 8 people is a GREAT strength and wouldn't want to see that change.  That doesn't mean that I wouldn't also love to see underperforming ATs find a little bit better home and role.  The game used to have that and I do feel there was a time that it had relative class balance and roles while still retaining that core concept.  That was before kill speed was through the roof.  Again to clarify because people keep associating things to me that I don't believe in, while I would love that to come back, I think it would be the death of the game so no.  But, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't want to see perhaps ways to enhance control and support to give them a little better role in fast moving teams.

 

Yeah that's not what doorsitting means in farms. Doorsitting in a farm has a distinct definition. What you described isn't it. Anyone who actually farms with any regularity knows this. It's literally sitting at the door doing nothing while the farmer or farming team clears the map. It's NOT bringing along lowbies on a radio mission. 

 

And farmers will literally announce in LFG:  Farm forming looking for doorsitters, or Farm forming for lowbies. PST if you are looking for a boost.

 

EDIT2: A little boost to control and support is fine. Though again I think Doms, Defenders, Controllers, Corrupters, do just fine while using their secondary and primary on fast moving teams. They are always welcome on TFs, especially where there are hard targets like AVs.

 

Fast moving trash missions I couldn't care less about. It's a radio mission, there are no stakes there unlike a TF which is a time commitment that you don't want to fail.

Edited September 26, 2020 by golstat2003

[BitCook]

7 hours ago, KeepDistance said:

10% speedup is 10% speedup, regardless of how much time it takes to clear a particular enemy. If the support set is giving 10% speedup all the time, then the raw clear speed for a particular mob doesn't matter. I think what's leading the argument astray is confusing proportional and raw speedup values.

Agreed.  If a buff gives you 10% more damage, or reduces resistance by 10% your clear time goes down by that amount. 

However, the longer it takes you defeat that mob determines how much you value the cost of providing that action.

If it takes 2 seconds to speed up the team 10% and the mob will only live for 5 seconds, do you really want to spend 40% of the fight to change the duration of the encounter by .5 seconds?  No... probably not.  Yes, it's kind of confusing to think of that, but the value of a buff/debuff is often related to how difficult the enemy is to defeat.  

Quote

 

I think this is the real crux of your argument:

I agree with this assuming you mean debuffs (for buffs, the buff goes with the player not the spawn). In the hypothetical case of the mob being dead before the debuff is fired, there isn't a 10% speedup - it's closer to 0%. The speedup is linear only in the difference between raw (un-debuffed) clear speed and cast time. It's that nonlinearity that's important.

Buffs are a little different.  Certainly because they are longer duration and as you mentioned stay with the player from mob to mob requiring less investment.  However, again, in the endgame a lot of them become less and less useful.

To Hit?  Kind of nice, but most player have solved their acc issues on their own by endgame.
Def?  Again, sometimes useful, but lots of players have also solved their def issues in the endgame.
Damage?  Usually wanted, but this falls into the category of once you have enough to quickly defeat the content adding more damage doesn't make them more dead.
Recharge?  Usually wanted, but many builds work on recharge and already have seamless attack chains by the end game.  So speeding them up might not be a huge benefit. 

This all goes back to characters becoming more and more self sufficient as the endgame approaches.

That's not a call to nerf anyone... just an observation that support either in terms of buff/debuff gets steadily weaker as the heroes around the support players get stronger and stronger. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by BitCook

[BitCook]

Just now, golstat2003 said:

Yeah that's not what doorsitting means in farms. Doorsitting in a farm has a distinct definition. What you described isn't it. Anyone who actually farms with any regularity knows this. It's literally sitting at the door doing nothing while the farmer or farming team clears the map. It's NOT bringing along lowbies on a radio mission. 

I have been on a lot of PI teams where people join and sit at the door.  Whatever term you want to use for it, no problem 🙂

I'd call it doorsitting, but if you and others don't then no big!

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, BitCook said:

I have been on a lot of PI teams where people join and sit at the door.  Whatever term you want to use for it, no problem 🙂

I'd call it doorsitting, but if you and others don't then no big!

Yeah that's literally farming. In fact some teams that bring along lowbies will tell them from the start that they expect them to participate. 

[BitCook]

1 minute ago, golstat2003 said:

Yeah that's literally farming. In fact some teams that bring along lowbies will tell them from the start that they expect them to participate. 

Either way, and whichever term, an unslotted lowbie is not contributing much to a +4 team in PI 🙂 

[golstat2003]

2 minutes ago, BitCook said:

Either way, and whichever term, an unslotted lowbie is not contributing much to a +4 team in PI 🙂 

True. But I'm fine with folks being altrustic and bringing them along. I see no issue with that. Could be their buddy, could be the leader just being nice.

 

Again we're talking about force multiplication where it counts, like on tfs, itrials. That's where support classes shine. And that's where you appreciate what the support classes bring to the table.

 

A radio mission . . . couldn't care less. It's a trash mission just for fun.

Edited September 26, 2020 by golstat2003

[BitCook]

Just now, golstat2003 said:

True. But I'm fine with folks being altrustic and bringing them along. I see no issue with that. Could be their buddy, could be the leader just being nice.

I'm fine with it too and will offer up unused slots to people as well.  

However, it does speak to the level of power being at a point that 1-2 players is often enough to manage +4 content without any help.  I think this came up as an illustration of that.  I'd have to go back and look where it first came up.