Empathy/xxx Defender - Secondary?

[PattyAcee]

Wanting to start a support for PVP. I figure defender is the way to go, with Empathy being up front. What about secondary choice?

 

I figure I won't use it all too much anyways, but just thought I'd ask the question.

 

 

Thanks in advance

[Banana Man]

If you're looking to be a pure support, try dark or water blast. You can slot an extra 6% heal bonus in the heal from those sets. @dan petro has an amazing emp/water build he'd probably post for you.

[Dan Petro]

Eeey! This is the build every time I have played it in zones someone (or multiple people) have cried "Emp's are OP".  So do with that what you will.  Capped HP, Mag 41 KB protection and a massive 51% healing bonus. Heal range is 139 or a little bit further than blasters with boost range.

 

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1568&c=728&a=1456&f=HEX&dc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

[jimmaydean]

whoa that is pretty awesome!

[Neuronia]

Oh my goodness Dan thanks so much for sharing, and it looks like it won't break the bank either, which is a nice bonus!
Will start up my Emp/Water tomorrow! woooooo!

 

[macskull]

20 minutes ago, Neuronia said:

Oh my goodness Dan thanks so much for sharing, and it looks like it won't break the bank either, which is a nice bonus!
Will start up my Emp/Water tomorrow! woooooo!

 

FWIW prevailing wisdom has changed a bit regarding Emp builds, moving the focus more toward maximizing range (Emp/Ice is popular, I've seen a few builds with 190ft range on the heals), and Grav/Emp is also gaining traction because Dimension Shift is awesome.

[Neuronia]

Yeah I read that about grav/emp. Could you flip me a build at some point? I'm finally going to try kickball this Wed now that my TA has all the HP accos, but want a specced emp build at some point soon.

 

[Dan Petro]

Here is a grav emp that covers all your bases (mag 49 KB/hp capped / decent recharge, range and heal values).   If you settle into a main build, it is worth it to drop KB from a second build and go for a max range one as well.  

 

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1518&c=685&a=1370&f=HEX&dc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

[Neuronia]

Many thanks. 🙂

Can't wait to get back to kickball in two days. Nervous as hell but it should be lots of fun.

 

[Dan Petro]

It is kind of a miserable time to emp with the current meta, but here is hoping it gets better!  Hopefully you come out and have some fun though.

 

 

Just be ready to evade like crazy as TA's seem to have a massive target painted on their backs in KB!

 

 

[Glacier Peak]

So out of curiosity what's the argument for max range instead of heal? Just from my perspective, it would seem that range can be made up on an emp by changing individual and team playstyle - following more frequently spiked targets closer if the map dictates or getting the team to set waypoints on a designated emp(s) so they know how far/where their heals are.  The best emps I have seen communicate almost as much as the target caller, perhaps this is another area of consideration. 

 

As far as I know, healing can't be made up through strategy. Maybe Spirit Ward on APd emps, but that's a different arguement. 

Edited October 7, 2019 by Glacier Peak

[xhiggy]

Seems like most people with both controller and defender emps are switching between them depending on the match/night, either AT works depending on where you'll be playing mostly (zone, kickball, scrims, match size, etc.) though grav/emp does seem to be the current trend.

 

For range>heal you have a lot more leeway for your own+your target's positioning and you're more likely to be in range to heal people when you need to be which is important since heal timing is much more important than heal amount for most matches. A lot of the time your heals will be bringing your target to full too where extra healing bonuses wouldn't help. I haven't really run the numbers or anything, but I don't notice missing a little bit of healing bonus but I did notice switching to a higher range build. Usually it works better for people to set their team's target caller as waypoint rather than an emp.

[macskull]

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

So out of curiosity what's the argument for max range instead of heal? Just from my perspective, it would seem that range can be made up on an emp by changing individual and team playstyle - following more frequently spiked targets closer if the map dictates or getting the team to set waypoints on a designated emp(s) so they know how far/where their heals are.  The best emps I have seen communicate almost as much as the target caller, perhaps this is another area of consideration. 

 

As far as I know, healing can't be made up through strategy. Maybe Spirit Ward on APd emps, but that's a different arguement. 

Anecdotally, I've found it easier to keep targets alive with slightly weaker but longer-ranged heals (though it is pretty much impossible for a solo Emp to heal through anything but the sloppiest of spikes in anything larger than a 5v5). I don't have to get as close to get my heals off and like xhiggy said it's more about the timing than the actual heal values. Additionally you practically have to AP to keep a teammate alive these days so the farther away from someone you can do that, the less likely you are to be seen doing it, and the easier you can evade if you do manage to draw someone's attention.

 

As I'm sure you've noticed as you've started to play more, being an Emp can be really rough in the current meta - even when things are going well your teammates may die a frustrating number of times and the second you hit AP you practically turn into a magnet for the entire enemy team's damage lineup. Positioning is pretty important so at the end of the day you want to stay as far away from the action as possible while still being able to heal people. I've seen some Emp builds start to take Medicine instead of Sorcery and I can certainly see why it's attractive but I'm not entirely convinced it's the better choice. 

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

Anecdotally, I've found it easier to keep targets alive with slightly weaker but longer-ranged heals (though it is pretty much impossible for a solo Emp to heal through anything but the sloppiest of spikes in anything larger than a 5v5). I don't have to get as close to get my heals off and like xhiggy said it's more about the timing than the actual heal values. Additionally you practically have to AP to keep a teammate alive these days so the farther away from someone you can do that, the less likely you are to be seen doing it, and the easier you can evade if you do manage to draw someone's attention.

 

As I'm sure you've noticed as you've started to play more, being an Emp can be really rough in the current meta - even when things are going well your teammates may die a frustrating number of times and the second you hit AP you practically turn into a magnet for the entire enemy team's damage lineup. Positioning is pretty important so at the end of the day you want to stay as far away from the action as possible while still being able to heal people. I've seen some Emp builds start to take Medicine instead of Sorcery and I can certainly see why it's attractive but I'm not entirely convinced it's the better choice. 

Wow those are really great arguments for maximizing range on heals macskull, especially the AP portion I highlighted. I am finding that I hit mystic flight and TP away after using AP more frequently than I used to, in fact it is almost a requirement. I feel like I am hitting a huge horn and lighting myself up like a firework. Like you said, part of this is knowing that it is really the only way to mitigate the damage avalanche dropping on my teammates, while also realizing I am basically a free kill unless I can evade.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Glacier Peak

[Glacier Peak]

2 hours ago, xhiggy said:

Usually it works better for people to set their team's target caller as waypoint rather than an emp.

Ah I rarely play offense and I am horrible at locking so I didn't realize this was a thing.

 

I absolutely agree with you and macskull about timing. I have had pre-empted heals land and immediately seen a black bar on my teammate, which makes me frustrated but I get it. Landing the right heal, at the right time, from the right distance is the best way to help keep your team outputting damage and yourself alive to continue healing. That being said, I am happy to see a new take on the emp/pain meta and I still think it is a fun experience IMO.

[Neuronia]

20 hours ago, xhiggy said:

Seems like most people with both controller and defender emps are switching between them depending on the match/night, either AT works depending on where you'll be playing mostly (zone, kickball, scrims, match size, etc.) though grav/emp does seem to be the current trend.

 

For range>heal you have a lot more leeway for your own+your target's positioning and you're more likely to be in range to heal people when you need to be which is important since heal timing is much more important than heal amount for most matches. A lot of the time your heals will be bringing your target to full too where extra healing bonuses wouldn't help. I haven't really run the numbers or anything, but I don't notice missing a little bit of healing bonus but I did notice switching to a higher range build. Usually it works better for people to set their team's target caller as waypoint rather than an emp.

So should I have both an Emp/Water and Grav/Emp then?
In what situations would someone switch to a Defender build over a Controller, and vice-versa?

 

[xhiggy]

46 minutes ago, Neuronia said:

So should I have both an Emp/Water and Grav/Emp then?
In what situations would someone switch to a Defender build over a Controller, and vice-versa?

 

They're exchangeable enough that I wouldn't worry about having both. If you go defender I'd go /Ice right now since you can slot range bonuses in BFR and freeze ray.

 

If you're playing in zones or smaller arena matches the play style starts to move away from spike damage and towards sustained damage where the extra ~15% heal value is nice. Also, having a better heal other sometimes means you can stay out of AP more often which can work in larger matches too depending who and what you're playing against. Plus you can slot BIB for damage 🙂

 

Larger matches if you're playing against a team that consistently targets you if you AP then having the dimension shift on the grav/emp is very useful for survival.

Edited October 8, 2019 by xhiggy

[Neuronia]

Thanks a lot X.

I'll just work on the Grav/Emp then. I've not gotten any younger, you know.
I should be able to Glue Arrow a few peeps between evasions/respawns, hopefully.
Have a good day and see you in Pocket D.

(Yeah will need to not AP constantly, hearing CriticalKat in my head right now about that, lol....)

 

[jeezjaze]

On 10/7/2019 at 9:20 AM, Dan Petro said:

Here is a grav emp that covers all your bases (mag 49 KB/hp capped / decent recharge, range and heal values).   If you settle into a main build, it is worth it to drop KB from a second build and go for a max range one as well.  

 

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1518&c=685&a=1370&f=HEX&dc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

Is there a trick to get these links to open up in mids?  Says I have to copy it to a clipboard (unable to find) in order to import into mids.  Frustrating.  

[xhiggy]

8 hours ago, jeezjaze said:

Is there a trick to get these links to open up in mids?  Says I have to copy it to a clipboard (unable to find) in order to import into mids.  Frustrating.  

Clicking on the link should download an .mxd file which can be opened in Mids.

[RavenFrost]

Hi! Does pain domination work okay for a support character? My main on live was a magical empathy ice blast defender and I wanted to try something different. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by RavenFrost

[macskull]

It works but it's a slightly worse version of Empathy. It's best as a third healer on an 8-man team or in an offense/support switch role

[MJB]

IMO pain is better as a _pure_ healer, because the self debuff on share pain doesn't last as long as empathy's absorb pain. Emp is generally preferred because fortitude is arguably a better buff than world of pain, and adrenaline boost is very useful to put on your teams other emp, as apposed to painbringer which buffs a blaster to the detriment of your fellow support comrade.

 

In general though, yeah pain is perfectly viable

[vegetableknife]

Pain has better sound effects and its fun to trick pvpers into thinking they are getting spiked when using enforced morale on them.  Also suppress pain is a cool toggle that lets you regen through your share pains and puts a cool globe around you.

[Nutcase]

Would someone be willing to put that build together in mid's reborn and share a link to it? Would be awesome if i could look at it, thanks!